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I’ll repeat this again because I think its really important.
Most women dress for other women, not other men.
Continue on with your conversation.
Philosopher, you don’t think its easier for an abusive person to behave on 3 dates versus 6 months? I’m sorry your post is a little ridiculous.
Sure, you can end up with an abusive spouse even if you date for 10 years. But the likelyhood is that getting to know a person over a longer period of time will reveal more about their abusive tendencies than not.
When I was single if I had a tough day, I just wanted to be left alone (go for a long drive or walk all by myself). You can’t do that when you’re married.
Dr. P, that’s not quite true. I tell my husband when I need space to destress. He understands. Its harder now with children – so if I need that time, I make sure the kids are taken care of (or asleep) so I can get that time.
Really, the most important thing about marriage is open communication. If the person you are dating can communicate (or is willing to learn how) then you can work on almost everything.
missme, rabbonim should be the ones dealing with this. That is a strange comment.
I do think that tznius discussions are best left amongst rabbonim and women though. I do think its odd if a regular man is so obsessed with tznius on women.
Popa, no children involved.
And unfortunately women who claim they are abused are not believed right away anymore because of ridiculous situations like you posted.
All of them are family. Two turned to me for support (the first two).The one who moved away from religion was fairly obvious. The one who divorced her non-Jewish husband wasn’t specifically because he wasn’t Jewish. They had other issues. Sorry if I made that one sound like it was religion based.
There are 4 divorces in my extended family. They were because of:
1) Abuse
2) Cheating
3) Moving away from religion
4) Jew divorced her non-Jewish husband
I’m not “pro” circumcision. It does bother me, especially after my last son’s circumcision. He was in so much pain.
But we do it anyway.
I thought you davka don’t sell your keilim otherwise how would you guarantee their kashrus? A non-Jew owns them during Pesach and has the right to come in to use the chametz right?
notarabbi, I’ve never learnt that gemora. I cannot imagine that is the meaning though. Its the girls fault that she was at home and the boy couldn’t control himself? So beauty is now a sin? Was she flaunting it in some way?
I’m going to look up that gemora because that seems like it doesn’t fit with Judaism.
And my step-father was told he is allowed to drive on Shabbos – he is a doctor and has to go to the hospital. His psak was from a charedi mainstream Rabbi, lest anyone think this is a MO psak.
Helpful, people treat shok/zroa as this bottom line thing. Its absolutely not! Its a big machlokes in halacha and elbows are one area that some Rabbonim are more meikel on (usually within a tefach of the elbow).
So, don’t blame your hirhurim on them if they are following their rabbonim. Although, I would gather a hot Chani causes more hirhurim than a woman with a shirt sleeve 1″ above her elbow.
Woohoo Emoticon!
He wasn’t “ordained” as a Rabbi. No. As a Rosh Yeshiva, he was probably called Rav though.
I could be wrong but I thought Rabbi was a halachic qualification, not a term to throw around.
You do not need to be called Rabbi to be a tzaddik and extremely learned.
myfriend, AFAIK, in order to truly be a Rabbi, you need smicha.
If everyone is called Rabbi, what distinguishes a true Rabbi?
I can tell you that my BIL, a really good Jew who learns a ton and is very knowledgable is NOT a Rabbi nor does he expect anyone to call him one.
That’s ok Mod80. I know sometimes its really frustrating when people miss your point by nitpicking, even though the point is a decent one.
Crunchy is generally the “natural” parenting group. They may do some or all of the following:
1) Avoid epidurals or pain meds during birth
2) Nurse exclusively
3) Cloth diaper
4) Serve whole grains, cut out chemicals etc
5) Avoid/limit/delay vaccinations
6) Homeschool
7) Babywear 🙂
8) Co-sleep
9) Follow attachment parenting
Obviously this is a stereotypical list and not all applies to everyone. I have done a bit of everything except homeschool.
Mod80, I can explain why in every scenario you could fathom, the victim can be negligent in some way.
But I will concede to your overall point. Because I understand what you are saying 🙂
yehuda, that’s not always true either.
It really bothers me when parents turn their kids around (in carseats) too early. Research has shown that with rare exception (like kids who can unbuckle their seats) it is significantly safer to keep your kids rearfacing as long as possible. I feel bad for the children when their parents turn them at a year or earlier.
I do judge them as not doing what’s best for their kids. And I try to educate them.
Myfriend, its generally not MO Rabbis who are posing as having smicha. Or having gotten it off the back of a matchbox.
Every letter from my neices schools is addressed to “Rabbi” – my BIL is NOT a rabbi. He has no smicha. The school said they address everything that way because so many people ask. Its assumed in Lakewood that you have “smicha.”
And these are large rabbonim.
The point is though, you would look at those dressed differently than YOUR standards as halachically wrong. I know people who think if you don’t wear tights (and sheer ones don’t count!) then you are violating halacha. Not according to my Rav. So if a man holds that way, I am in NO WAY liable for his hirhuring.
Mod80, I disagree that the man is responsible. It doesn’t matter what I have, its not your right to take it away. I just may be more likely to lose out in some way.
In scenario 2, you could make the case that it still is partially the man’s fault. Why is he carrying his wallet in his back pants pocket and not the front? Or why wasn’t he wearing a stomach pouch that no one can see? Sure, its more of a lifnei eiver situation, but it doesn’t make the man wrong.
Mod80, with all due respect, there are quite a few Orthodox Rabbis who permit sleeves above the elbow. Even if your rabbonim disagree with them.
So right, there are rabbonim who allow women to wear sleeves above their elbows. So for them its ok, even if you think its out and out halachically wrong.
WIY, I followed with “If she isn’t Jewish.” That’s an important piece of my comment.
I agree with Mod80.
Also, sometimes we see a person doing something that we struggle with (like someone who is exceptional with bikur cholim or something) but isn’t dressed properly. Its easier to rail against them for that than to take a good look inside and say “Maybe I should be emulating that person’s middah of chessed.”
We all like to feel superior to someone.
So dressing improperly = being an object?
I won’t deny the reporter dressed like this to garner attention and increase her fame (she has said so). But a woman wearing a less clothing than halacha requires because its hot out? If she isn’t Jewish, why shouldn’t she be comfortable for the weather? She doesn’t have to submit to your sensitivities.
And frum women have a broad spectrum of whats allowed based on their rabbonim. If I follow my Rav, and you think its not tzanua, that is your problem, not mine.
So right, women don’t go around blaming men for their desire to dress inappropriately. Men generally blame it on women.
In addition, frum women dressed inapprorpiately generally do not even come close to what non Jewish women are wearing.
EDITED
Yeah but Squeak, you no longer have Chanan Bisha. I really liked that one.
Why is that bummy?
WIY,
What about if the girl is your daughter? Do you think its ok for other men to leer at her based on how she is dressed?
You may have a tayvah, but YOU are responsible for controlling it or staying in your house.
Women are dressed inappropriately ALL OVER THE PLACE. Obviously some places are worse than others (like a beach) but there are women barely dressed on the street. You think its ok to leer at her? Or act on your desires whether or not she agrees?
I didn’t say it was easy. But it still doesn’t excuse your (the general you, not specific) behavior.
EDITED
What is less than a daas yochid?
Chosson, that’s funny, I was just thinking about that. But I look at it the opposite way.
No matter what a woman is wearing, it doesn’t justify a man’s inappropriate behavior.
Did you get a heter?
APY, at the airport I had to take the baby off and put the carrier through the x-ray machine.
The home made baby wraps are basically a piece of fabric tied with cool knots. Look up “how to wrap a moby” and “how to make a moby” – its really interesting.
For those of you from “imperfect” homes (divorces, widows, blended families that aren’t quite functional, mental illness etc) – find a happily married family to use as your guide.
My father died as a young child and my mother made sure that we saw a great, loving couple (my grandparents) interact. We saw how a long, happy marriage is supposed to be. Loving, warm, compromising, and anticipating each others needs. Its important to have good role models, but they don’t have to be your parents.
Can you define “bummy” baby clothing?
My sons wardrobes mainly consister of Children’s Place, Carters and Baby Gap.
If you are near Lakewood, there is a really great outlet center to get things in.
I don’t know if I’ve ever spent $35 on an outfit.
Grocery shopping wearing a baby is so much easier. You can fit groceries in the cart.
The only shopping that isn’t easier is clothing shopping.
Its also a lot easier to navigate around.
I wear my baby all the time. Its so much more convenient than using a stroller.
I use an Ergo Baby carrier and I absolutely love it. Its amazing. I wear my 11 month old and my 2.5 year old (it has a 35 lb weight limit). I even nurse discreetly in it if I am wearing the right clothing (you need layers).
A few people in my shul wear their kids also. I highly recommend it.
Sacrilege, I didn’t say I hold by R’ Moshe about A/C timers (although we don’t set timers for ours, they are either on or off). And I didn’t do Dor Yeshorim – I’m not really a fan of it.
I added in the “very halachic.” Her family is very stringent in halacha. And they come from a long line of very distinguished rabbonim. Her father has smicha. He knows halacha and makes sure his entire family follows it. They took showers on Yom Tov. They did it properly.
In addition, my husband has really short hair. He doesn’t even need to towel off his hair. So that removes the schitah issue no?
Now, I don’t think there is any way for me to be able to deal with my hair on yom tov. Its long, thick, curly and stays wet forever. Its virtually impossible to contain the water that drips out. I also can’t brush my hair with even my fingers because it knots/breaks. But I never discussed this with my rav and maybe he would have a solution.
But I don’t expect others to not shower based on my ignorance.
Do we have stats that say divorce rates are higher around this time of year?
Sacrilege, I don’t shower. Mostly out of ignorance though because I don’t know the full details. Growing up, my best friend’s family (much more frum than mine and very halachic) all showered on Yom Tov. They knew the halachic details.
Doesn’t R’ Moshe say that you shouldn’t use a shabbos clock to turn on air conditioners? And possibly other things?
And if your Rav says showering by doing XYZ is kosher, then why should someone be machmir? Because you don’t agree? Should I not cut anything on Shabbos because I may end up cutting things too fine? There is a reason we follow our rabbonim. They tell us how to apply halacha to our lives. If they give us the details on HOW to shower, why shouldn’t you shower?
Popa, that’s true too. Its very “playground bully” mentality.
Sacrilege, why are those poor examples? Why aren’t they parallel? If anything, those items are LESS important to every day life so we should be able to live without them even more.
And you didn’t answer the question. Are you willing to give them up?
mdd, one wrong thing doesn’t excuse another right? So men have a chiyuv to make sure they don’t see women who aren’t dressed properly.
Dr. P, we can’t remove every ad around. But this thread is about frum women dressed improperly. So men must take every precaution possible. Davening at a netz minyan does give the best chance at avoiding improperly dressed women as there are so few people on the street.
So now, why is everyone yelling about skirt length and at the same time not going to a netz minyan?
myfriend, this topic has been hashed and rehashed and picked over.
I still think discussing tznius in a mixed crowd is a little not tzanua.
EDITED
APY, I recently tried getting people to stop using the term prutzah to no avail.
This is the “in” mitzvah to rail against.
I think its time men look at their own mitzvos that people are struggling with rather than concentrate too much on womens dress, which in and of itself is not so tzanua.
Did anyone read the terms and conditions of the coupons? Usually it says something like one per person or one per household. Just because the system allows it makes it ok?
[In theory, I havent actually read these T&C]
Business ethics is called Toeva in the Torah, but people seem to ignore that.
May none of us need Beis Din as our marriages will be blessed with peace, love and happiness.
EDITED
WIY, if I were dating in the shidduch system knowing there are men who hide their past, what would my motivation be for revealing my own? Especially if no one will find out.
And what if a woman is still a besulah but has a past? Should she reveal that? Technically, she doesn’t have to for the ketubah.
Honesty really is the best policy.
First, I would find out why she is doing what she is.
I think classifying a woman as a true moredes is rare.
So what you are saying mdd is that:
1) Its logical that a person CAN turn into a pillar of salt
2) It is not logical to assume that the person standing next to you WILL turn into a pillar of salt.
Correct?
Maybe I’ve been too entrenched in math logic, but I don’t understand how its logical. Plausible, if Hashem changes the laws of nature. Logical? I don’t think so.
I do think the base thought process is agnostic too. But even agnostics have to make a choice – live like a believer or live like a non-believer.
[loj-ik] Show IPA
1. the science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference.
2. a particular method of reasoning or argumentation: We were unable to follow his logic.
3. the system or principles of reasoning applicable to any branch of knowledge or study.
4. reason or sound judgment, as in utterances or actions: There wasn’t much logic in her move.
5. convincing forcefulness; inexorable truth or persuasiveness: the irresistible logic of the facts.
6. Computers . logic circuit.
I don’t see how its logical to assume the person standing next to you will turn into a pillar of salt. Can someone please explain the logic behind that?
How is it logical to assume the person next to you will turn into a pillar of salt?