Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Cholent existed (albeit in a slightly different form). Halacha does discuss “chamim.” Although, I don’t like cholent and I wear sandals so I am closer to maintaining our heritage.
I’m curious who you think the US government is. It is the representation of the entire US system. It is us! So every time you steal money from the tax base, you ARE stealing from the people.
The tax system has been set up that some people don’t have to pay or get credits as a form of charity since they cannot afford it otherwise.
And finally, according to my Rav, cheating on your taxes is theft.
Anyway, clearly everyone missed the initial point of my posting about that.
The question was “How do I save money?” Beans are cheaper than chicken hands down.
Start using cloth instead of paper towels, napkins, tablecloths etc.
myfriend, as a consumer I have the right to discriminate when purchasing items. I can choose where and when to use my money. And I often choose to shop at large department stores over small businesses because they offer better return policies.
What is discrimination is not hiring someone based on their race/nationality/gender. Or not allowing them the same seat on the bus. Or putting up signs that say “No blacks or Jews allowed.” We aren’t talking about the same thing.
myfriend, if someone was constantly burnt by black businesses, I would understand looking for business elsewhere. Not everything is racism or antisemitism.
I am not talking about 1-2 people. I know a LOT of people who feel this way. Enough that I think people should wage war on this toeva.
I myself hesitate to do business with small businesses in general (mainly because of poor return policies).
myfriend, unfortunately, I don’t think so. I know many people (frum Jews, non frum Jews and non Jews) who won’t do business with frum people after having been burnt one too many times.
I wish we could say we are more honest and ethical in finances than society. But I don’t think that is true.
I’m not mekabel.
People are on much more of a rampage about homosexuality than business ethics. Many people railed against the statement of “if a man tells you he is a homsexual and doesn’t openly practice (meaning you can assume he doesn’t), then treat him like a human being!”
Unfortunately, putting your head in the sand will not change the fact that many Jews (at least a larger percent than those who are homosexual) have problems with business ethics.
And I am looking at two aveiros called Toeva in the Torah. Can you tell me where to find the list of aveiros that are better than others? I mean, lashon hara isn’t a capital crime so I can do that right? And tznius isn’t even listed directly in the Torah, so clearly that’s fair game. Right?
Maybe instead of all the energy put into tznius campaigns we should be putting them into toeva campaigns? You know, business ethics.
Myfriend, stealing is much more rampant in the Jewish community than open homosexuality. Why would people be on such a rampage about homosexuality (especially those who live a celibate life which is fine) rather than rage about business ethics?
And I’m not sure one is “worse” than the other. The PUNISHMENT is worse, but likely because you can repay it in some monetary way, but you can’t undo homsexual relations.
Consider we will go to Israel on the “wings of an eagle” (AKA airplane), I will assume technology will still be around.
Lets assume its stealing.
The Torah calls it TOEVA. How can you contradict the Torah? Word for word. It’s not even a d’rabbanan statement where someone can say “Oh but (insert great Rav here) says something different.”
Your post is sort of my point. People dismiss this kind of Toeva because it doesn’t fit into their pre-concieved notions of what the Torah calls Toeva. Because Toeva is ONLY about homosexuality right?
Uh, wrong. The Torah calls improper business ethics TOEVA. Please find me a Rav who says this is NOT toeva.
mw13, when you don’t pay taxes, you are also stealing from Jews. Are there not Jewish taxpayers? You are also stealing by using services provided by your tax money and not paying for them.
Honestly, its this thought process that is DESTROYING our generation. Theft is ok huh? Theft is theft. For every dollar in taxes you aren’t paying, you are stealing a % of that money from millions and millions of people, many of whom are frum.
And forget about actual taxes – many Jewish business owners LITERALLY steal from their customers (this is especially true in construction).
I’m not saying this is a good thing or that its halachically allowed. I’m pointing out that people rail so hard against one toeva but neglect another. Because one seems so foriegn to them (homosexuality) and the other is “not so bad.” Vomit.
Who’s talking about stoning? My point is look within before railing against toeva because more people practice it than realize. People think “Oh cheating on your taxes is no big deal. Its a minor sin.” Um, the Torah doesn’t seem to think so.
I once learnt about the rationale behind the different punishments but I don’t remember it at all.
tzippi, I referenced “short” term vs long term because the plan is different.
If you plan to marry a long term learner (AKA lifetime), then you need a career that can pay for housing, food, clothing and TUITION for 10 kids. If you are talking about shorter term Kollel, unless you pop out twins and triplets every year, you will be talking at most 4 kids in 5 years with daycare costs or a housekeeper.
Its just a different plan.
Financial dishonesty is called Toeva is the Torah:
Devarim 25:14-16
??? ??????? ???? ?????????? ?????? ???????? ????????? ??????????:
????? ???????? ??????? ??????? ????? ?????? ???????? ??????? ??????? ????? ??????? ?????????? ??????? ??? ????????? ?????? ????????? ????????? ????? ????: ???? ???????? ????????? ????????? ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ?????? ?????
Ben Torah, that isn’t what it says. In fact, one sentence that Moq didn’t quote is:
We do not here address what synagogues should do about accepting members who are openly practicing homosexuals and/or living with a same-sex partner.
It is only referencing those with the taivah who either keep it a hidden taiva (as most of us do) or those who say “Yes I have this taiva.” It is not talking about those who openly give in to that taiva. [Better Mod80?]
Wrong thread Mod.
OK so call it taivah instead of orientation.
You can respect a person calling them by their name and you can disrespect a person calling them Mr or Mrs. I think we put too much stock into titles and not enough into the person.
I might adopt Ms. Shira though because some people are super strict about their kids using a title. That’s a good compromise IMO.
Moq, I am glad you got my point about each community having their skeletons. Wasn’t there a Rav who came out saying it was ok to cheat on your taxes?
As to the statement of priniciples regarding homosexuality – I actually think its an important statement. It does NOT say homosexuality is ok. It says that a person of homosexual orientation should not be discriminated BASED ON HIS ORIENTATION. It says nothing of his actions.
A person should not be “outed” as a homosexual with the exception of a girl he is dating. A person should not be ostracized based on his orientation, if he does not act on it. If someone had a strong desire for cheeseburgers but didn’t eat them, would we say he isn’t keeping kosher? Homosexuals deserve to be treated as human beings. If they sin, we treat them as any sinners. But we should look within to see what kind of toeva we are doing (like business ethics).
IMO Rabbi Riskin is a great Rav. We will have to disagree there.
Anon, we use a vinegar spray.
Dr. P – I assumed she wasn’t talking about the baby LOL.
I didn’t say its exclusive to right wing orthodoxy. But whereas a MO person is more likely so sin mixed swimming, I know right wing orthodox people who do as well.
Whereas a molester can stay hidden in MO society, RW society is MORE LIKELY to hide the molester. Its a lot worse to be a known victim in RW society than in MO society.
Neither society blasts that any of these sins are OK. They are just more accepted than others.
If a RW guy in shul is talking about his tax fraud, no one would bat an eyelash. If he was talking about his wife going mixed swimming, people would kick him out of shul. But its more likely opposite for MO society.
I think one way to get along is to realize that each community struggles with DIFFERENT things. Then maybe you can respect a MO person who goes mixed swimming.
I am not libelous. I am honest. I can look within and see the issues. Each community has their own. I don’t believe in burying my head in the sand.
Ben Torah, I get up at 5 am. I ate at 11:30.
WE never referred to our parents’ friends by there first names and that set a tone to how we addressed them and spoke to them without a doubt.
Whats wrong with calling adults by their first names? I called all my mothers friends by their first names (men and women) as they instructed me to.
I absolutely HATE when people call me Mrs. SJSinNYC. I have a name people, please use it. I’m not a big title person.
Then again, I naturally disprespect authority until they prove to me they are otherwise competent, but that’s a persona issue. I am still respectful.
Ben Torah, your post makes me wish I hadn’t just eaten lunch.
WIY, you did ask what’s wrong with society today.
Pregnant women who cannot fast are told to do this sometimes.
I think the difference is that you aren’t eating and drinking even though you are rehydrating. Its one step down.
Moq,
I think you have a major misconception. Are there MO people who do things wrong? Yes, absolutely. But none of that is sanctioned by Modern Orthodoxy. [With the exception of Rabbi Avi Weiss who skirts the line, although I am not well versed enough in halacha to know if he really crosses over or if he has solid backing in halacha and just grates against other rabbonim]
Right Wing Orthodoxy also has its well known aveiros Does that mean any of those things are right wing orthdoxy? I don’t assume that.
I do have a lot of respect for charedi rabbonim even if I don’t follow them.
And Moq, do you respect Rabbi Moshe Dovid Tendler? He is a real gadol baTorah but controversial.
EDITED
Shan, its possible. But what % of Kollel families make it on their own with no government support and no scholarships?
When I was in high school, they took us on a Jewish tour in the NY area. We went to New Square, Williamsburg, BP, Flatbush and the Lower East Side. It was a really nice experience.
I can pretty much say respect between all sects won’t happen. This is because everyone views anyone to their left as “not so frum” and anyone to the right as “uber-machmir.”
But to make it easier lets put it this way – can Yeshivish people respect the MO viewpoints and rabbonim? Some yes, many no. [that goes both ways]
ICOT, do they take kids shoes in good condition? I have a bunch (I don’t reuse shoes between kids because I am neurotic, but they are in good usable condition) and would love to donate them somewhere.
aries, schools already have plenty of scholarship money. They don’t have enough parents willing to sacrifice to put more money into the school.
Hashemlovesme, if you are looking for shorter term Kollel (a few years), its very doable provided you have a job that can support you plus the approximate number of children you can have in that span of time.
Also, it would be prudent to find a guy with a plan – like learning full time but taking classes at night (my BIL did this). This way at the end of whatever time you are talking, your husband could start earning a living right away rather than go through initial training. Its a lot harder to stop what you are doing for school when you have 3 children to support.
Shan,
Putting government benefits aside (which I think is unethical to take because you want it rather than need it, but read my past posts on that), it ultimately affects your neighbors in more ways than you realize.
Tuition? My cousins are a long term Kollel family – he is still learning after all these years and his oldest just came back from seminary. How do they do it? They get scholarships for school, scholarships for camp, reductions on everything thats even possibly negotiable. Did you read about the Yeshivas closing due to financial considerations?
So yes, if you are self supporting 100%, go for it! Otherwise, realize that you are forcing others to sacrifice for Torah, not necessarily you.
My friend’s parents support her 100%. They are wealthy. They support her with a living wage including things like tuition. She isn’t affecting the community negatively.
Dr. P, my 2 year old can vaccuum with the attachment. He loves to do it. Keeps him busy while I do something else nearby (I still have to do some afterwards, but he gets the large stuff and is entertained). He can also wipe things down with a rag or paper towel and unload the dishwasher (he can’t reach where high things go).
Gosh I sound like a slavedriver LOL.
Do you have local parks? Its really nice to bring a picnic and eat dinner in the park.
Go for long walks. Or bike rides (if you do such things) or other physical activities.
Learn another language together.
I don’t know the Five Towns that well so I can’t be too detailed.
Do puzzles together. 3D ones are super fun because you are literally building something.
Take up a hobby that’s productive. Learn basic “how to” like redoing dressers and stuff. Go dumpster diving for practice materials.
I love chess. Or card games.
Take cooking lessons together. Or just pick elaborate meals and make them together.
Keep your apartment spotless and marvel at the ability for it to stay clean. You’ll look back during your child filled years in awe and wonder LOL.
In shana rishona?
Anyway, if you post your location, I can post some specific activities.
Did you do anything fun while dating? You can still “date.”
Dr. P, that’s what I was going to post!
I think also an organization that teaches true money management. What is a “want” (like eating chicken 5 nights a week) vs “needs” (like some sort of roof over your head).
Too many people don’t have that basic concept.
ANONY613, I was referencing this “Goyim follow “styles,” which are “in” one day, and “out” the next day”
Jews always kept up with fashion trends. Always. We kept up with colors, styles etc. Jewish men and women. Saying we shouldn’t be “in style” is ridiculous and will not cause anyone to be more tzanua. Being “the tznius” person already has a bad reputation as being “the neb” – add in the requirement to be out of fashion?
FWIW, I don’t dress fashionably. But most women want to.
He often does.
But he always wears a kippah. That’s pretty visible.
Don’t eat chicken/beef etc most of the time – save it for shabbos and yom tov. Eat more eggs, beans, rice, potatoes and vegetables.
Walk everywhere you can. Bike further distances.
If you just got married, I am assuming that you each came with an adequate wardrobe. Don’t buy new clothing unless absolutely necessary.
Don’t hire out cleaning help. If you find that you and your wife are having trouble keeping up on your current schedule, take off 1 hour a week from Kollel. That should be enough to clean your apartment since you don’t have kids (again, going with the newly married just in Kollel vibe). If it saves you the $100/week, its that much longer that you can stay in Kollel.
Check out http://www.pennilessparenting.com to see how a frum womanlives frugally. Its a kosher site – and all the recipes are kosher:-)
Get rid of smartphones – use pay as you go phones and rarely use them.
ANONYM613, then please explain fashion trends like streimels and black hats. Are those Toras Moshe M’Sinai?
I love when people try to pretend that Jews didn’t dress with the fashion of their time. Altered, sure, but throughout history Jews have always adopted the dress of local cultures. We aren’t all wearing long robes and sandals.
When I was in elementary school, I had a teacher who made chumras into halacha. As in absolute if you don’t follow it you are going to burn. This included things like “wearing skirts to your ankles is totally assur!” and “tights must be worn at all time!”
When anyone mentioned their Rav held differently, she would scorn the Rabbi.
Kids see this and learn to disrespect their teachers.
That was a tough year – we clashed in many ways.
myfriend, aren’t you supposed to wear your tzitzit strings out?
I don’t know the price, but as a board member of our shul, we use the money pledged from RH/YK seats and kibbudim to pay a large portion of our mortgage.
Catfish.
Tznius is at least important as middos?
I would rather be married to a mentsch who needs help with something changeable than be married to someone who is not a mentsch at all but is externally frum.
WIY, sure women want to look good for men. But sort of more abstract.
They wear the shocking pink shirt with the ruffled bow and flower because they will look uber cook for their friends. Do you think women think men care about that?
Who are they dressing to impress? Shadchanim, MILs, women in the community.
They want to dress nice when they date, but not the way they dress for the neighborhood.
Sacrilege, absolutely that’s how the designers are designing. But that’s not the motivation of the frum women, which I think is really important.
Women dress to impress their friends. BY girls don’t often socialize in coed environments – they are dressing to attract attention from their friends. If a guy on the street notices and gives them a look? Great, means they look good. But they aren’t doing it because of that.
so right, that’s whats in style. And available to buy easily. Everyone (not me LOL) wants to be “in style” so they buy a skirt that’s 1″ shorter than they want because really, its still 3″ below their knee! And then that becomes 2″ and 1″ and all of sudden its on the knee. And then there is a totally cute skirt that is 1/4″ above the knee. What’s the big deal? They’ll wear it on thier hips…sometimes.
Its really not for men.
myfriend, I know a lot of people who play around with tznius who are wonderful people. I know a lot of people who follow tznius to a T but are awful people in other regards.
I disagree.
Most women dress for their friends or other women. Otherwise, why would they go to womens only events dressed to attract?
Sure, some women do dress to attract men. But the overwhelming majority don’t.
A man may notice a plunging neckline but he won’t notice that you got XYZ fancy brand’s brand new sweater and paired it with haute coutour skirt. Oh and those exquisite shoes! Most men don’t care.
Wow myfriend, I totally disagree.
1) Look for a person with a plan and a general idea of how to get there. That doesn’t mean the person can’t change the plan, but it helps that they have thought out their path. This generally speaks to a persons maturity.
2) Look for a person you can comfortably converse with and be open with. Open/good communication is probably the most important thing in a marriage.
3) Look at a person’s middos. Does he/she get annoyed by every stupid little thing? Do they help open doors? Are they polite to waiters and others around them? Watch them when they drive.
4) Ask the person about their goals. Do you want to be/have a stay at home mom? Career woman? Kollel? Talk about the large scale goals in life.
5) Ask them about negative experiences in their lives and how they handled it. You can learn a lot about a person from their negative side. Every person has one and its good to look at what their “worst” is.
6) Be honest about what you are or are not willing to compromise on.
Look for a happy, mentschlich person who can communicate well. And look for a person you think you can love.