SJSinNYC

If government grants marriages to anyone, it should be without discrimination.

But I disagree with the government granting marriages at all. So either all or none.

Sac, I disagree. Look at how many one night stands happen around the world. You don’t need love for that. But it does make it more satisfying.

Also, in the past, men and women would marry without knowing each other. It worked for them.

Actually, ShlomoZalman is correct.

A man acquires a wife. My marriage CONTRACT. It is a business transaction. This was often done to consolidate wealth and maintain power. But ultimately, the man owns the woman in some way.

We do have romantic notions in the Torah though.

Anyway, I’m glad things don’t have to be done as they have in the past (there were no goats and camels in my dowry!). I dated my husband for 1.5 years.

Josh, we want freedom to operate within our religion. Denying others freedom because it doesn’t fit with your religion means you agree with limiting freedoms.

Guess what? Jews are a minority. If you were a WASP, I could hear your point. I mean, who’s going to outlaw church on sunday? But as a minority we have to be sensitive to these things or our freedoms will be squashed next.

So you want to restrict two adults from getting married because its against your religion? Do you have a secular reason for doing so?

If you still feel like restricting it, don’t complain when shechita is outlawed. After all, we restrict other peoples freedoms, so there is no reason for US to get an exemption.

Anon, I never heard that term before. I just googled and it seems like I would fit that.

Just remember, if we ask to discriminate, don’t expect anyone to be sympathetic to causes like shechita.

Mod80, people use to use those terms to discriminate against Blacks, Jews and other minorities.

I refuse to vote FOR discrimination.

Rebdoniel, I’m refering to limiting freedoms to people based on gender or orientation.

I don’t beleive I have the right to vote away someones freedom because I’m in the majority. So I actually have no problem with gay marriage. Even though I oppose it on a moral level.

The question being how do you justify letting someone else subsidize your chovos to the yeshiva because you choose to be the grandame or king of the castle in a home you can’t afford to keep up appearances for your friends. And I am not talking about people who have fallen on bad times and used to pay full tuition plus, they are entitled to ride out the storm. I am talking about people who put their own egos before their obligations.

Yes Aries. 100%. Here is a round of applause!

Common, I think part of the problem is that people view cleaning help as a “neccesity” – really? If your choice was feeding your children or cleaning help, what would you pick? Educating your children in yeshiva or cleaning help, what would you pick?

No one admits to saying “cleaning help is more important than a yeshiva education” but when you don’t cut back (barring some extreme circumstances) or get rid of your cleaning help to afford tuition, you are saying its more important.

Which is fine – we all prioritize differently in life. But then don’t say “Oh a Yeshiva education is THE most important thing” because you aren’t willing to really pay for it. [The general you, not the specific]

And kol hakavod for doing what you can to pay tuition.

I don’t think my numbers are far fetched for people in my neighborhood. Nor do I think people should lease expensive cars. We recently donated our second car because it was costing too much money. Now, if we both need a car for work, I drive my husband and then use the car and pick him later. Then I need to make up extra time another day because I can’t get in a full 9 hour day plus travel that way.

Those are the numbers the committees here don’t look at. THey look at the “after tax number” of $110,000 (or $120,000 if you want, remember though I left out a lot of expenses). Then they look at a bottom line number of costs. You come up with very little for tuition.

Tuition is average $15,000 per child. So $60,000.

LOL Arc, I thought you meant you agree with how they do it.

EJ, its not so much that I want to pick into peoples lives and say “You bought chicken for dinner, that’s $2.50 less of your scholarship.” My point is that people have so many luxuries in their lives that they aren’t willing to forgo. To me that says they don’t actually value a yeshiva education. Its not as important as their cleaning help because someone else will pick up the tab.

MG, my cousin is on a committee. They do look at things like stay at home Moms, fancy homes, big leases and contributions to 401ks. They ask for women to go back to work, refinance homes for tuition, reduce lease costs and reduce 401k constributions. They base their scholarships on things like that.

The local schools as for 2 things – salary (after taxes) and monthly expenses. You pay the difference. They do not allow you to have much in savings though.

Mod80, that’s true. And if people can’t afford to build a mikvah, they use a body of water.

If people can’t afford to build a shul, they have a minyan in the house. Obviously, the sefer Torah is NOT a luxury. But the building is.

A Yeshiva is a wonderful thing. I wonder what % of people in Goshen studied in Yeshiva. And at what cost to the community.

Arc, I don’t expect rich people to give all their money to schools. I expect those who can’t afford Yeshiva education but want it, give up their luxuries. Otherwise, that’s a statement that a Yeshiva education is not worth it to you.

Rescue, where I live, tuition is between $12,000-$17,000/year. It covers costs if everyone would pay in full.

Arc, please tell me how a yeshiva education is a necessity. Please explain to me how my mother or my grandmother or my grandfather etc are/were frum without a Yeshiva education.

Please explain how women stayed frum before Sarah Schneerer.

I just find it odd that such a large % of households “need” cleaning help. A small percentage? Sure I’ll buy that. 90% of people? Um….

I think its unfair to ask others to foot your tuition bill because you want cleaning help.

Arc, realize, that’s $2500/year that should be going to your school if you aren’t paying full tuition. And that $2500 has to come from somewhere. Or, it may mean the teachers in your school aren’t being paid on time. Your $2500 on cleaning help may mean a teacher has trouble feeding his/her family.

Because we are taught this in school.

Our teachers emphasize “chochmas noshim” and say that men often need prodding and its a womans responsibility to ensure her husband davens/learns etc.

So, training basically LOL.

I’ve been to all 50 states, Puerto Rico, and 10 countries.

New York certainly isn’t “the best.”

Mod80, considering how many people have luxuries in their lives that they won’t give up, its a small percentage that deserve our pity.

I highly doubt this is the case.

I’m not talking about someone losing their job and needed a leg up every once in a while. If you are perpetually on scholarship, that means you can’t afford your current lifestyle.

Whatever community you are in, there is generally a cheaper option farther away. Even if it means walking 2 miles to shul on Shabbos. I know people who have done that.

Blinky, my response is that when parents take tuition more seriously, then it would be wrong. Until then, parents don’t take it seriously and the school should let the parents know that they aren’t getting their final “product” until tuition is paid.

Arc, tuition isn’t paid because most people have many luxuries (there is no need to live within the boundaries of Boro Park for example when you can save a few hundred a month by moving 1/2 mile away – that’s a luxury). Reduce luxuries, more money would come in, less scholarships needed, better financial situation for everyone. Children get report cards. Viola!

Rescue, you are drinking the koolaid.

Seriously – why do people feel entitled to cleaning help when they have other bills to pay? Unless they are disabled or something, do without. I’m tired of people crying they are “tuition poor” when they have many luxuries.

Our friends are putting in a $250,000 renovation on their house. They get a scholarship.

When parents make it a priority to pay tuition, then maybe I would feel more compassionate. A Yeshiva education is a priveledge, not a right.

1) Start putting down boundaries. Like “I’m going shopping on Tuesday, please have your list for me on monday night.” Make it clear you will help out once a week (or whatever it is).

2) Is there a sisterhood committee at your shul? Can they arrange rotating help so the burden isn’t on you?

3) Someone needs to talk to the husband or his Rav. This is his husbands responsibility. Its his child she’s carrying and he should be taking care of her – even if he doesn’t agree with her errands.

4) If its not a necessary item (“I need another blue sweater when I have 4 to wear already, can you pick it up for me?”) learn to say NO. You don’t have to do everything.

5) Realize that you are doing a wonderful thing and this woman may not be fully there. I have never heard anyone (except for little kids who need prompting) who don’t say please and thank you.

I have found during my “low” times, it was better to say the bare minimum of organized prayer and then pray with my own words. It helped me get over humps.

I can tell you the food that comes out of my kitchen is both interesting and delicious.

I never went to seminary.

I didn’t even cook while I was living at home.