SJSinNYC

Health, please explain to me the halachic difference between a civil contract of marriage vs a contract written up between two men and signed (such as power of attorney, inheritence etc). As I said, I don’t believe the government should really grant marriages to anyone.

My statement about Canada was tongue-in-cheek. And Popa, it was just for my own amusement – should I have specified that? LOL

Now as to your “discrimination” – again, you still haven’t specified the industry. In my company, there are jobs I can’t apply for because the rotating schedule would be too hard to accomodate for me. So yes, I understand the laws. I was giving a parallel example that’s a lot easier to understand. Clearly, the judge disagrees with you. Since I can assume judges go by the law of the land (and you said it went all the way to the supreme court, so it wasn’t 1 judge), you are misinterpretting the law.

Heath, I love the attacks on my character. How awesome! I’m a kofer because I think:

1) There is no legal reason to outlaw gay marriage

2) I think the government should get out of marriage altogether

3) I think its wrong to ask for freedoms and deny them to others.

Please explain that.

Anyway, about your job: they aren’t required to hire you if its a hardship. If they need saturday workers, that is a hardship. Again, I don’t know the industry, but here is another example. A company interviews a disabled person. Their facility is not wheelchair accesible. If they have to install a new elevator system, it will cost them $1,500,000. They aren’t required to do that by law. But if all it costs is $50 to buy some wood to build a basic ramp, they are required. There is a reason the law is vague and that’s because its different for every industry/jobsite.

Your argument about the Holocaust is sort of ridiculous. Sure, everything is run by Hashem, but generally, we have free will. The germans (at least in the beginning) did so willingly. Americans are willingly asking for gay marriage to be allowed. Does that mean its Hashem’s will?

Also, has Canada been zapped to the Ocean for allowing gay marriage? its been around for a while up there.

Again, I don’t really support gay marriage. I support removing marriage from the American government. Marriage is a religious institution.

No, I don’t feel I owe the world everything because I am Jewish. I feel that I owe hakaras hatov to America for granting me freedom to practice my life as I wish. I am grateful that others went to bat for freedoms that they didn’t need so that I could have them. I don’t want to deny others the freedom to practice life as they please with the same benefits because of different choices we make.

Let me give an easy example: my company has a multipurpose room at headquarters. Every day, there is a mincha minyan (plus a maariv minyan when applicable). Now, imagine a group of muslims wanted to pray there also and I said “No, company property should not be used for religious purposes. Unless they are mine of course.” That’s the equivalent of what you are saying – give me freedom and deny others.

Not all the benefits of marriage can be granted in a contract (especially financial things like social security).

Truth is, this is a non-issue. In a few years gay marriage will be the norm. It already is in Canada and nothing has changed there.

Maybe but there were a few things that clicked together. Don’t remember exactly what.

I’m wondering if he mentioned Monsey at some point maybe? His family moved to monsey for a few years which was where I met him.

And yes, he has said he is in college.

Ben Torah, there is only one Moshe Rose.

But there were a few things he said early on that made realize it was him. He’s originally from California too.

APY, he has to make up for his previous sins.

Tzippi, I know who he is. He isn’t a teenager, but in his early 20s.

I have to call his sister one day to find out if he is really this crazy now IRL or if hes more normal and playing. He used to be a huge sports fanatic and we would talk about sportscenter. My how times have (seemingly) changed LOL.

Popa now I’m not sure if I should take you seriously or not LOL. Two men can’t sign a contract? How would my husband hire a plumber? Or a general contractor? Can only married people do construction?

Popa, if there was something wrong with two men signing a contract, then business wouldn’t be allowed. American marriage is a contract.

So Popa thinks that a Muslim and a Christian should not be able to legally get married? Or is it just Jews you want to limit? How does that fit into the constitution?

No one thinks animals and humans deserve the same rights (PETA thinks they deserve more, normal humans think we deserve less). But we do give animals basic protections under the law. Why are we denying people basic rights?

There are hospitals that won’t share medical information with a gay partner because they aren’t legally married. Which they can’t do. So they aren’t “next of kin.” Can you imagine how hard that must be? In case of emergency they can’t advocate for their partner.

I have to dig it up but there was one state that past inheritence laws that stated you could only leave your estate to your spouse or blood relative. It was specifically done to limit inheritence by gay couples. That’s abhorrant.

But like I said, I’m not pro-gay marriage, I think the US government has no business being in marriage at all.

Health, you may be frustrated, but you seem to try to attack me. How about keeping this nice?

Now as to custody – again, I don’t know your specific situation, so I’m going by small bits that you are telling me. I assumed your wife had primary custody based on what you posted. I don’t know how you came to the conclusion on where to educate your children. I don’t know your court case. But I still can’t imagine that any father would not want to help his children, especially if their mother was raising them in less ideal conditions. What is more likely to make/keep a kid frum? Seeing his mother upset because his father isn’t paying child support and life is hard? Or a mother who speaks favorably about her ex-husband still supporting his children? I know people in both situations and the former doesn’t work out well for the children. The latter does.

No, I don’t believe that only atheists have rights. I have no idea how the courts determined where to educate your kids. Usually, its a compromise between the parents.

As to my friend – her company knew that they had the ability to work with her because they have enough people on staff who rotate their hours. So it was just another request in the pot. It worked out even better when the specifics cleared because there was one person who always wanted off on Saturday instead of Sunday and now it was easy to accomodate both of them. Otherwise, she would have rotated with other people.

Another friend of mine got a job offer from a famous auction house. When she accepted, she mentioned Shabbos and they retracted their job offer. Her position was being shared with one other person who always left by 4 oclock. Since they needed her to stay, they couldn’t reasonably accomodate her. So they weren’t legally required to.

Tzippi, that’s true. I was thinking about this on the bus – I did read a lot of things at a young age that was inappropriate (like Stephen Kind and John Grisham at 10-11).

Heath, I feel so bad for your children. If that’s your attitude about them, then the courts are probably right for giving your ex-wife custody. A father doesn’t want to support his children? Are your kids just the sum total of how many mitzvos they do?

I’m not sure your arrangement during your divorce or what your ex-wife wants. But the non-custodial parent is responsible to contribute to the upbringing of their children (man or woman).

As to my friend – they knew that they could reasonably accomodate her. If she hadn’t switched with the Catholic woman, she could have switched with someone else. People often switch days where she works, so they could reasonably guarantee her the right to switch. Again, I don’t know what industry you are in.

Popa, as a Jew, you ask for freedoms. You ask that people allow you to live your life as you believe possible. You ask society to not discriminate against you when you apply for a job. Based on a life choice that you make (yes, being an Orthodox Jew is a choice, one we believe we are required to follow but the general population doesn’t).

When you ask for freedom, you should make sure that you aren’t being an obstacle to other people’s freedoms.

Denying two people legal rights of partnership solely based on their gender should be illegal. Whether or not I think its immoral.

We don’t legislate morality – if we did, we would force veganism on everyone because PETA says so.

Remember – allow gay marriage is NOT saying that the acts forbidden in the Torah are ok. Its saying that two men or two women can create a contract that affords them the rights of inheritence, the right of acting as next of kin in terms of medical issues etc. Its just a legal contract.

My preference is actually for government to get out of the marriage business. But that’s a different story.

If you live in Brooklyn, their fruits and vegetables are amazing compared to the local fare. The only thing to be careful of is that sometimes their peppers come from Israel.

The formal dress in the south and southwest is often different than what NYers wear.

I bet Avrohom didn’t wear a black suit with a white shirt.

BP Totty, be careful or you’ll be branded MO! LOL

Thinking about it, its not a bad idea for those willing. I think that certain things would need to be disclosed (mental illness etc) because that’s important. Each person should list their positive attributes and their negative ones. You can learn a lot about a person from their negative traits – more so than from positive ones.

Its not somethign I could ever do, but it could work.

Forget the internet for a moment, what could be so bad in a library book? They don’t stock pornographic material.

BP Totty, are you suggesting re-implementing Tu Bav?

I’m a big fan of lending libraries. I think it can help teach children about sharing, responsibility and paying fines if you aren’t (I learnt a lot about that one growing up LOL).

You need to teach your children to behave in all sorts of situations. Learning to function in public is important. You can help your children learn how to censor (by helping them) and avoiding the internet if that’s your thing.

Libraries are not more evil than Barnes and Noble.

LOL Wolf. Welcome back.

Betty Friedan and Rosa Parks were both people who pushed the envelope of society. Betty Friedan is one of the reasons that women have equal footing in the workforce. She is one of the reasons I was able to become an engineer and work in a male-dominated field. She is one of the reasons so many Kollel couples can survive.

Charlie, the professor who got tenure and then had an operation to alter his gender.

myfriend, do you wear a sheitel?

Rosa Parks was aggressive when she sat in the front of the bus. Sometimes, aggressiveness is the only way. Betty Friedan was also aggressive.

I don’t know about the case in Europe. Europe has very different ideas of values and freedoms. But in the US, I have never heard of a religious leader being required to accept homosexuality.

The only case that even comes close is Yeshiva University and that’s a really sticky legal situation. Well played by the professor.

I like to make pumpkin pie (from Libbys, not gourmet but very good).

We don’t make much in the way of traditional foods either.

Health, first of all, I would hope that you would pay child support. They are YOUR children too. I can’t imagine someone would want to abandon thier children when their marriage doesn’t work out. Alimony is rarely given out now – it was much more important when women were 99% of the time SAHM and therefore lost all earning power when they were older. All those details should be worked out in a marriage contract.

The movement has to be agressive – how do you think women won rights? Or blacks? Or any other minority group?

HaLeivi, all the things you just mentioned were used to opress blacks. And Jews. And interracial marriages.

How does their wanting to have a legal binding contract infringe on YOUR rights? What are they making you do?

A gay marriage has a lot less of an affect on society than an Orthodox Jew. Orthodox Jews need many dispensations to practice religion. A gay couple is just asking for the right of a contract. It does NOT infringe on your rights. They aren’t asking for religious leaders to perform any ceremonies.

It really makes me upset when people who ask for some many freedoms deny them to others.