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Mod80, with a proper filter on your sewage or water line, water goes from “rancid” to “pure” or at least “acceptable.” Hence why people filter their internet.
There is enough clean, quality programming that I watch that for me its not a sewage line. For you, I understand why you think so.
What if they are broadcasting shiurim on TV? On a totally kosher channel with shiurim all day long.
Granted, I realize you disagree with the premise of TV in general which is totally fine with me. But there are currently programs on TV that are perfectly fine. I just think its hypocritical when people say “Oh I don’t have a TV I’m so holy.” and judge me for showing my son Mickey Mouse, but they play their kids Elmo DVDs. Sorry, that aint holier.
Well, if we can find one kosher item on TV, then it no longer is a sewage line. More like a water line that needs filtering.
Mod, that assumes there is not one single clean thing relating to TV or movies. Which is fine if you want to take that route, but then owning a computer that allows you to watch TV shows or movies, is a defacto “TV” or “dvd player.”
I would take the quiet bus.
I commute with enough annoying people who think that you are plotzing to hear the bass coming out of their ipod. No thanks on a cross country trip.
How Sac? Without stealing the content which is a whole nother ballgame.
tuchscreen, I misread your line. I thought you were saying I don’t have control. Whoops!
I agree, it is my responsibility. I don’t feel guilty for it either. I would have closed off other avenues.
Wolf, divorcing your wife wouldn’t change how you met her. It wouldn’t do anything for charata.
tuchscreen, then it wasn’t my fault that I met my husband that way. Either way, I’m free!
tzippi, watching TV shows on fox.com or wherever instead of fox does not eliminate commercials.
mdd, having heard most proofs, they are NOT foolproof. There is always reasonable doubt.
Its easy to believe the proofs if you believe the premise (Hashem created the world and gave us the Torah). If you doubt the premise, or don’t believe in the premise, its not the open/shut case you think it is.
Nothing but hypocrisy.
Hashems Princess, I also believe in hishtadlus.
I turned down every shidduch suggestion that came my way even “the great guys who are going to be off the market really quickly.”
I had zero interest in getting married and settling down. I wouldn’t have started dating if not for meeting my husband on my own. I didn’t do blind dates. I turned down every guy who asked me out. I had zero interest.
Until I spent time with my husband.
So I would have blocked myself from dating. That’s the point you are missing. We do have control over our lives and I would have gone in a different direction.
Popa, when my family moved to monsey almost 30 years ago, there was one kosher pizza place. Well, sort of. They kept sneaking in non-kosher cheese.
They lost their hashgacha. People were really upset so they implemented a mashgiach tmidi. Didn’t work because the owner paid off the cheese guy to put stickers on before delivering the cheese that had proper hashgacha.
Be careful of pizza LOL.
LOL @ dismantling the lamp.
Around here, people usually bring wine. And hope the kids don’t whine.
So right, why would you need a heter to steal to put bread on your table? We have plenty of frum and non-Jewish organizations that will help with food.
Lomed, LOL because I’m MO I don’t connect to Hashem? Really? ROFL (anyone else laughing with this sentament?). I don’t even think Joseph would make a statement like that.
I understand your thoughts about non-Jews because I used to think that way too. Then I met a Christian woman who has more faith in her pinky than almost anyone I’ve ever met. She is protestant so doesn’t “need to do works” according to her religion but believes that those who believe in G-d will want to follow in his path. She is an amazing person who does more charitable work, gossips less and is a much finer person than most Jews I know. She is pure in her faith. [Granted, I disagree with her choice of religion, but not all halachic authorities agree on whether Christianity is idolatry or not]
Anyway, moving on. There are many reasons people are motivated to be frum Jews – a major one is belief that Hashem gave us the Torah and commanded us to follow it. That’s a huge one. Then there are the societal aspects – family pressure, familiarity in your environment, not wanting to make waves, the possibility of losing “everything” if you are percieved as not being 100%…but people absolutely want proof or some version of it. Otherwise, why would you care if you ripped some letters on Shabbos? Why would you take your clothing to be checked for shatnez? If its all mumbo-jumbo, why would you do it?
If you think many people don’t go OTD for intellectual reasons, you may not have known many people who go OTD. There is a large contingency who go searching for answers and just can’t find them. They are looking for logical proofs of the Torah. Just search on the blogosphere and you’ll find a few. I personally know a few people who went OTD for intellectual reasons.
Sure there are some kids who go OTD as a rebellion. But most kids understand that going OTD means losing their families, abandoning their comfort zone and travelling into the world by themselves with no support. Its not an easy choice, even if frum Jews pretend it is.
And, according to the OP, the thread is about teens going OTD so I’m not sure what you are referencing.
crdle, the statement “off the books” means “without paying taxes.” Otherwise, your statement should have been “my employer doesn’t set aside taxes from my paycheck.”
Sorry for judging your harshly. I hope you forgive me.
Lomed, your statement about non-Jews it ignorant. Propogating ignorant statements is a huge factor in the OTD crisis. “The outside world has nothing real to offer” and “People don’t connect to G-d” are false, false, false. If the kid goes searching and sees there are people with real, fulfilling lives and those who are close to G-d without keeping halacha, are they really going to believe you?
I’m laughing at “if I had a deeper understanding of Judaism” – I do have a deeper understanding. That’s why I understand kids who go OTD for intellectual reasons. Why? The Torah cannot be proven 100%. It takes faith. If you don’t acknowledge that, they will start googling and find a wealth of information that tears apart the “proofs.”
No one goes OTD for seeing improper images. They may use it as an excuse “Well, I want to watch pornography so let me go OTD” but in reality, there are men out there watching it while married or single (don’t believe me, check out the many threads on imamother.com about it) and still frum.
Its normal to struggle with a taivah. But people don’t break away from Judaism because of it.
I don’t buy publications that remove pictures of women or replace women with men.
The only Jewish paper we get is “The Jewish Voice and Opinion.”
crdle, first ask your Rav the halachic ramifications of working off the books and start reporting your income to the IRS.
The non Jewish world has nothing real to offer.
That is a pretty naive thing to say. I know plenty of non-Jews who live happy, fulfilled lifestyles. They may not be Torah observant but they have plenty of “real” things to offer.
We are not bothered if we execute 1 million innocent people.
Popa, please review Tanach. We are supposed to be bothered by the deaths of even guilty people (AKA the Egyptians at Yetzias Metzrayim).
Money Tree
GAW, if people think that the only hold Judaism has on kids today is segregation, then they obviously don’t think Judaism is worth much.
I think they also don’t understand that seeing improper pictures is a symptom not a cause.
The Chicago cRc is absolutely known and very reliable. They are well known for dealing with flavorings and additives (at least in the kashrus world – people who don’t know anything out of their daled amos of NY probably don’t know them).
OK, but my statement still stands. Sometimes, its easier to make a major life change (like dropping movies) when you get married. There is also the possibility of “mishane makom, mishane mazal.” Sometimes, that little bit is all it takes – being removed from your rut.
Sorry Mod, I didn’t mean to mislead the staff.
Our MR. Mine might still watch Sportscenter.
Actually, it has worked for many people. One reason is that when married, they have their own home and they don’t own a TV. Its harder to stop watching when its sitting in your parents house right where you are.
Sac, don’t let people discourage you. Make your own decisions in life and remember, you can do whatever you set your mind to.
A better way to answer that is what would Moshe Rose do?
I’m wrong. Its not the Moshe Rose I know LOL.
Now who is this strange creature then?
blueberrymuffin, there are ways to clean/check strawberries using soap. Are you sure your rav said assur?
Sometimes, they go to the earliest minyan possible as it is.
mdd, you think religious law should be implemented in America? I’ll let the Muslim contingent that wants Sharia law here know that you support them.
Myfriend,
Obviously, our friendship was not just friendship. And we started out l’toeles – as lab partners in Computer Science.
My husband and I started dating when both of us were 19. Neither of us had any intention of getting married.
Had I not “dated” I would never have started with real dates and never have been married. WADR to R’ Moshe, its not a blanket rule. Because “dating with no purpose” usually leads to purpose, at least in my experience and those of the people around me.
Ben Torah, from what I understand, they think they will never get the gay marriage bill pushed through if they ask for equality for all. They need to selfishly push through their agenda in order for them to have a chance at success.
HaLeivi, so you have no problem with Civil Union then?
And animals should NOT be included. Unless you consider them able to actually commit?
Siblings/Parent contracts should be allowed as long as coercion has been dismissed.
I have a Jewish cousin named Peter (grew up Orthodox, no longer is, but his parents were Orthodox). In past generations, Mary/Maria was used.
I don’t know anything about Bnos Sara but I have only heard excellent things about Bnos Chava. From caliber of students to learning to middos.
Health, you still haven’t explained how a US civil “marriage contract” is different from signing a legal contract with the same stipulations between 2 men.
Chesedname, we do have control over this. We have the ability to vote and rally for what we want or don’t want.
I go back and forth on this topic. But I sway towards no.
Depends what.
I would prefer that my fruits and vegetables not have pesticides laden in them. For adults its not as harmful as for children, so when I make baby food I only use organic for them. I also only buy organic apple sauce when I don’t make my own.
I also read that if you are making one change for kids it should be milk, as they drink a ton. So we get organic milk for our kids.
Yes Tzippi, but if you leave Kollel at 30 with 7 kids, its almost impossible to be earning enough. Its hard enough starting right out of college with no kids.
I think I’m one of the few people with kids not yet in Yeshiva who earns a decent salary and still stresses out how to pay tuition bills. We already have a few years tuition socked away.
Frumladygit, if you aren’t supporting your family on your current income, you should either increase your earning or decrease your spending.
She is living debt free. Her husband has a simple job and earns little. She stays home with her kids and takes *gasp* cleaning jobs on the side.
It is a Jewish value to support your family. Its also a Jewish value to take care of your environment. She is doing both. That’s a lot more noble than people who say “it doesn’t pay for me to work because I can mooch off of others.”
Helpful, unfortunately, its more common than most people want to believe. Its also something we have more power over. I would rather fight to maintain the purity of the poor little kids who are affected by this, than to rail against gay marriage. Gay marriage has a much less affect on Orthodox Judaism than molestation.
Popa, considering the state of Yeshivas nowadays and how many are in dire financial situations, its harming your neighbors when you don’t pay tuition. You are harming the Rebbeim when the schools don’t have enough money to pay them and htey can’t afford to feed their families. At some point, something has to give.
Living off others is not a Torah value. But I agree, if you want to learn long term, you should marry rich. Or a woman with a job that can provide.
Torah at all costs is not hypocrisy.
If it comes at the expense of your family, it is. Because taking care of your family is a Torah value.
I don’t think the OP is really contradictory though.
The problem with the learning without earning is that when people find it “unaffordable” they can’t jump to earning $100,000 to support their 7 kids in Yeshiva. If you think you don’t need $100,000 to support 7 kids, you must not be sending your kids to Yeshiva or paying much of tuition. In which case you aren’t supporting your family, you are still living off others. So define “affordable.”
Do you believe a woman whose life is in NOT in danger may choose to have an abortion?
A friend was given a heter to have a late term abortion. Her child had some massive heart and valve problems that would not have allowed the child to live more than a few minutes. The Rabbi told her it was better for her to abort. It was not easy for her to listen to the psak, but she did. [this psak was from an Orthodox Rabbi and her life was not in danger]
Popa, on you first list I disagree with D, E and F, which is why civil unions and gay marriage are being approved all over the US. Not rapidly really, but its being passed. And discussed. I think in 15-20 years all 50 states will have a gay marriage or civil union arrangement.
Now your second list.
I do think homosexuality is immoral per the Torah. I do think homosexual marriage is a gray area. I think I would need to know more about what the halachic definition of ketubah is to really make a definitive statement.
Yes, I’m an engineer 🙂
I’m also starting to get bored of this topic LOL.
And thank you GAW.