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I don’t know about giving the benefit of the doubt, I’m just saying I don’t know if the Medina is the cause of all of the Anti-Semitism today… or more accurately, I am not convinced that the Jewish People would be better off nowadays if the medina was never founded. I don’t know enough, and I don’t think anyone knows enough to accurately blame the medina for all of the evil that has befallen Klal Yisroel these past 68 years.
And yes, I acknowledge that the State was started with the intention to uproot Torach ch”v. And I can proudly and happily say, THEY FAILED! HODU LASHEM KI TOV KI LA’OLAM CHASDO!
The Medina that they helped establish has fostered so much of the Torah that they hate! Rabos Machshavos BeLeiv Ish Va’Atzas Hashem Hi Sakum!
What I do know, is that the State exists. The State spends more money supporting Torah than any other institution in the world. The State offers automatic citizenship for any Jew who wants to live in Eretz Yisroel. The State provides soldiers to protect the Jewish People (among them are those who learn Torah), from enemies who want to kill us.
You can continue to speculate on what the Medina should be doing, on how Torah would be so much stronger if it were not for the Medina, on how the Jews would be so much safer if not for the Medina. You can rationalize however you want to take away your responsibility to recognize all of the positives the Medina has done. I don’t deal with these what ifs. I deal with what I see. Hodu LaShem Ki Tov, Ki La’Olam Chasdo. The Medina has been such a positive force for Torah Jewry, even if you refuse to acknowledge it.
DY- There has been anti-Semitism throughout history even before hakamas hamedina. If there was no State of Israel in the post-Holocaust era, I have no idea how different the world would look today. To say that the Medina created the current situation is a statement that could only be made by a Navi. I don’t know who created the situation… in fact, Eisav Sonei Es Yaakov tells me that the situation would exists with or without a medina. What I do know is that the medina is protecting us and preserving us (or more accurately, Hashem is using the medina to protect us and preserve is) in Eretz Yisroel.
Akuperma- there has been Torah for centuries, but not in Eretz Yisroel. We have not had this much Torah in Eretz Yisroel since the fall of Beitar about a thousand years ago. The Zionists and the State with the right of return and the soldiers who protects us from the surrounding Non Jews have been Hashems tools in returning and sustaining Torah in Eretz Yisroel
DY- are you implying it is the soldiers’ fault that we need protection in the first place and therefore they don’t deserve a “groiser yasher koach” for risking their lives when giving us that very same protection?
Could we sit and study Torah without donations? The answer of course is yes. If HKB”H sees fit to allow us to learn Torah and not need money, he doesn’t need the help of the wealthy.
But that doesn’t change the fact that Hashem is using the wealthy as tools to support Torah and we owe His tools hakaras hatov for donating their hard earned money to kollelim and yeshivos instead of spending it on themselves. Even though we know that they only make money because of those learning Torah, we still owe them hakaras hatov.
We could also sit and learn without the protection of soldiers if HKBH sees fit. But right now, HKBH is using the soldiers as his tools to protect Toras Eretz Yisroel, and we owe His tools hakaras hatov for putting their lives on the line to protect the Kollelim and Yeshivos (in addition to all of the other people in the land). Even though we know that they are only successful because of those learning Torah, we still owe them hakaras hatov.
There will be Frey Jews during the times of Mashiach? I imagine they would all become baalei teshivah. Why would baalei teshuvah be more inclined to be a Zevulon than an FFB?
I think what happens is that the chameitz is sold to the Goy, he puts down a small down payment, and the contract says he has x amount of days to pay back the rest. However, the contract also has a clause allowing the Goy to sell back the chameitz by a certain date instead of making the payment. That is the Goy’s choice and the Jew cannot force him to keep the Chameitz as per the contract.
I don’t know the halachos of salary for Torah but this exchange seems very strange… Health makes a statement, Sam2 questions it and asks for an exact source, and Health offers to provide it for payment?
Health- I guess I deserved that. I apologize for my comment.
Honestly, I have no idea if we will “have the world” when Mashiach comes. The only thing I know, is that when Mashiach comes, we will have our government/kingdom in Eretz Yisroel, we will have a Beis HaMikdash, and there will be universal knowledge and recognition of God. Does that mean that will be the end of all other countries and there will be a new world order with the King of the Jews as the King of the World? I have no idea.
Sam- I think Health accidentally replaced his Tanach with the Protocols.
Turkey would not have a right of return givng all Jews automatic citizenship when returning to Eretz Yisroel. Don’t fool yourself into thinking that yishuv Eretz Yisroel would be happening at the same quantity and quality under any other regime.
Avi K- Zionism is more than political movement and has been since 1948. The very basis of the government and legal system are based on Zionism which has its own political parties. Yes, there is religious representation as well, but there are limits to their power. I don’t think they would be able to change the nature of the government of Israel into a theocracy based on the Talmud and Shulchan Aruch even if they were in power.
My personal opinion, is that the State of Israel as it stands is a secular state (with some significant Jewish influences). As it is a secular state, I am hesitant to say that the State of Israel is synonymous with Jewish Sovereignty over the Land of Israel. (I guess a question can be made how to compare the current secular State of Israel with the idol worshiping Malchei Yisroel of Tanach- was that not considered Jewish Sovereignty either?)
But, the secular State of Israel offers more opportunities for Yishuv Eretz Yisroel (Right of Return), more governmental funds towards Torah and maintaining holy areas, and more manpower to defending Eretz Yisroel and Jewish People in Eretz Yisroel and around the world. Not to mention the fact that Giyur and Marriage run through the State Rabbinate limits the existence of intermarriage even among completely irreligious Jews. No other secular government would offer that to Klal Yisorel and that’s something we all need to appreciate.
First of all, I didn’t mean that I didn’t think there was a difference between Arab sovereignty and Zionist sovereignty. I was merely speaking in extremes to express how Anti-Zionists delegitimize the “Jewishness” and halachik significance of the Zionsit entity.
My response to Health- As we see from Tanach and Halacha, Yishuv Eretz Yisroel is worth fighting for even if it puts lives at risk. Zionist sovereignty allows for the maximum amount of Yishuv Eretz Yisroel and is therefore worth fighting to defend. Am Yisro’el Be’Eretz Yisro’el.
ROB- To play devil’s advocate on behalf of Joseph. I think he meant Zionist sovereignty is not worth one Jewish life. This makes sense for those who don’t consider Zionism a Jewish movement and don’t consider Zionism to have any halachik value. Zionist sovereignty is no different than Arab sovereignty for them, so why should Jewish lives be put at risk for one secular government over another?
According to some- when we are told to go. According to others- when we can go.
Mr. Mustard- I assume they should all be done.
Another seder question:
What’s the proper procedure for a ba’al seder who needs to give out a lot of matzos for the mitzvas matzah at the seder? When he makes the berachah, should he hold all the matzos that he plans on to giving to everyone at the seder? Or should he only hold the two/three in front of him and have in mind to include all the matzah on the table? If it’s the second way, does he need to give everyone a small piece of the matzah that he was holding during the berachah or can they just take from the matzah that’s on the table?
The Government of Israel is secular. One can argue it’s not even Jewish (an organization run by Jews but not according to halachah is probably not considered a Jewish organization- like a Reform Temple). But it’s still better than any other secular non-Jewish government would be. While many of the members don’t follow halachah, and the laws are not based on the Shulchan Aruch, many meta-communal laws are based on halachah- like Geirus and Marriage- which makes things a lot less complicated for frum Jews. And while it is not illegal to violate Shabbos, to my knowledge, the government itself doesn’t run on Shabbos, which probably limits a lot of the chilul Shabbos.
Not to mention that no other secular/non Jewish government over Eretz Yisroel would give as much money to Yeshivos as the current government of Israel does, and no other secular/non Jewish government would give all Jews a blanket right of return which facilitates massive fulfillment of Yishuv Eretz Yisroel.
Are there problems with the government? Of course. Is the secular government of Israel considered Jewish sovergnty over Eretz Yisroel? I have no idea. Does the government itself have any halachik or hashkafik significance? Who knows. But having this government over the Land of Israel, is better than any other Non Jewish government over the Land of Israel. And I think some of us need to take a step back sometimes and appreciate how great we have it.
Hodu LaShem Ki Tov, Ki LeOlam Chasdo.
If you learn the sugya in the beginning of Mishnayos Keilim, not every area of Har HaBayis has the same level of kedushah and not every area is a chiyuv kareis. Some areas only require tevilah bemikvah and not haza’ah of the eifer parah adumah. Some Rabbonim have determined based on the sugya which areas on Har HaBayis one is allowed to go on after going to the mikvah.
I don’t think the halachic nature of Yishuv Eretz Yisroel vs. Pikuach Nefesh was discussed on the other thread.
Joseph- I do not know the sugya that well and I certainly don’t have sources for you. But, I do not know of too many poskim that rule a) it is assur to live in Eretz Yisroel today because it’s more dangerous than the USA, b) it is assur for a soldier to serve in Tzahal because he puts his life at risk to defend the borders of Medinas Yisroel and its inhabitants (though there may be other reasons why serving in Tzahal is problematic), or c) that the War of Independence and the Six Day War were fought be’issur because Jewish lives were at risk.
Maybe there are a few opinions that say those things and I wouldn’t be surprised if you’re able to quote them, but that doesn’t seem to be the opinion of the Dati LeUmi Gedolim and Poskim, and I don’t think it is the opinion of many Charedi Gedolim and Poskim.
Joseph- I don’t know how to value even one Jewish life vs. the mitzvah of yishuv Eretz Yisroel, but I do know it’s more complicated than you make it seem. Besides for historically, we have fought for yishuv EY, from the time of Yehoshua, to the time of Malchei Yehudah, to the time of the Chashmonaim (which was without the directive of a navi) which put Jewish lives at risk… the meforshim say how the mitzvah of yishuv Eretz Yisroel is both living and conquering Eretz Yisroel through war. By definition, yishuv Eretz Yisroel/milchemes mitzvah is docheh pikuach nefesh, otherwise there would be no such concept as yishuv Eretz Yisroel/milchemes mitzvah unless you were sure no one would die which is a ridiculous hava amina to even consider.
So, I think it is a very erroneous conclusion to say that yishuv Eretz Yisroel is always pushed aside for pikuach nefesh. It may be true nowadays, depending on the status of Eretz Yisroel, the mitzvah of Yishuv Eretz Yisroel, the concept of milchemes mitzvah bizman hazeh… but depending on how you understand those concepts, it is perfectly feasible for people to be put at risk for Yishuv Eretz Yisroel within the confines of Halachah.
Joseph- you ask a very good question, a question that you’ve asked before, which I have thought about a lot. Is there a difference between the parts of EY under Israeli control and the parts of EY under Arab control? And I think the answer is yes, there is a difference.
In Parshas Shelach there were two sins, the cheit hameraglim, and the cheit hama’apilim (those who wanted to go to EY when they weren’t allowed to). Without a Navi, how can we tell the difference? How do we know when we should fight for EY and when we shouldn’t? As a non-Navi, the difference I see from the Torah is the result. As we see from the ma’apilim, when we try to fight for EY when we aren’t allowed to, then we lose and we lose big time. We get massacred.
The parts of EY that the Israelis control, we can return to without fear of being massacred. Are there terrorist attacks? Of course. And each Jewish life killed from an attack is a tragedy. But only a small small minority of the Jewish People are actually being killed. I would not think that that qualifies as the type of massacre that the ma’apalim faced. This is the area that Hashem has returned to us as He allowed us victory in 1948 and 1967. Had God not returned EY to us, we would have faced the same fate as the ma’apalim… a complete massacre.
The other areas are much more dangerous al pi teva. Without a Navi to tell us otherwise, we have to assume that we would be massacred if we try to take parts of Jordan or Lebanon. Therefore, in my opinion, it is not a sin to speak of the dangers of returning to the parts of EY under Arab control. It wasn’t returned to us.(Maybe that’s how we should have felt in 1948 facing numerous Arab armies, but bH we didn’t and we won, proving at least in hind sight that we didn’t violate the cheit of the ma’apalim by fighting for EY).
MO and Yeshivish are not diametrically opposed. In theory, they are very much alike. The main difference is that an ideal theoretical MO Yid is more willing to engage in secular society for the positives it can offer while the Yeshivish/Charedi tries to stay away from secular society as much as possible, not wanting to benefit from the positives in an effort to keep away from the negatives (this can also be used to explain why MO is more receptive to Zionism while the Yeshivish/Charedi are not… MO theory is not afraid of the secular influence of Zionism while Yeshivish/Charedi is). Unfortunately, (and I say this as a person who appreciates the theory of Modern Orthodoxy), I think the fears of the Charedi/Yeshivish velt were warranted in many cases, as you will find more MO’s negatively affected by secular society, maybe being lax in areas of halachah and Talmud Torah because of their involvement in secular society. But that’s not what Modern Orthodoxy wanted to be, that’s just an unfortunate result of it’s failed application to the masses.
DY- Fair enough.
You quoted the din of venishmartem when it comes to EY. Usually venishmartem forbids us from doing something dangerous. I understood you to mean, that since venishmartem applies to the dangerous situation in EY, it is assur to go. If you don’t think it is assur to live in EY, don’t quote the possuk of venishmartem which may give someone the wrong impression.
Health- Please stop putting religious in quotation marks. It is very insulting to many Religious Zionists and the halachos of loahon hara apply to them also.
DY- Of course we should yearn for Moshiach. I never said we shouldn’t. I meant a person saying “I feel bad I can’t move to EY, I can’t wait for Moshiach to come so I can go” is not accurate because one does not need to wait for Mashiach to go to EY. In other words, yearning for Mashiach and all the Mitzvos that come with it is not the same as yearning to live in EY.
Health- At first I thought you meant the 1300s and I wrote my response that way. When I realized I misunderstood I edited it quickly and added the last paragraph. But you miss my point, even if it is more dangerous nowadays than it was 30-40 years ago, does not mean R’ Moshe would now say that is assur to go because of venishmartem. You can’t assume and make up a shitah like that that R’ Moshe never said.
I just meant that Yishuv Eretz Yisroel is not one of those Mitzvos that we need Mashiach to fulfill.
DY- Yishuv Eretz Yisroel is not many small mitzvos like tzedakah, it’s one mitzvah (albeit kiyumis according to R’ Moshe) you either do it or you don’t. But I hear your point that the two mitzvos aren’t comparable. Yishuv Eretz Yisroel is really really hard to do and there are many reasons not to go, like parnassah and family, and R’ Moshe’s teshuvah allows us to stay in Chutz La’Aretz for these reasons. But that’s what R’ Moshe’s teshuvah is… a heter, not a reason. R’ Moshe wasn’t advocating staying in Chutz La’Aretz. And just like if I were given a heter not to do a mitzvah, like not to wear tzitzis, or not to give any tzedakah, or not to fast on Yom Kippur, I would feel sad that I am not (or couldn’t) fulfill that mitzvah, we should feel the same way about Yishuv Eretz Yisroel. For those of us that are relying on R’ Moshe’s heter, we should feel sad that we need to rely on that heter, and we should hope that soon we don’t need to rely on that heter anymore. And I’m not taling about when Mashiach comes because Yishuv Eretz Yisroel can be fulfilled long before that happens. Maybe I’m wrong, maybe I’m not being dan lekaf zechus, but I don’t get the feeling that people feel sad that they are relying on R’ Moshe’s heter. I get the feeling that people are using it as a reason or an excuse not to go. I don’t think that was R’ Moshe’s intention.
So, according to R’ Moshe, living in EY is like doing chessed or tzedakah or eating in the sukkah when we don’t have to? I accept that. Yet all of those things, we don’t use the fact that it’s optional as an excuse. Do people really say “I don’t do tzedakah or chessed because it’s optional? I only eat in the sukkah the bare minimum because it’s optional?” And yet, R’ Moshe’s teshuvah is a reason (or an excuse) not to move to EY? We do chessed and tzedakah even when it’s really difficult because they are good things, even if they are not obligatory. Why is our attitude towards the mitzvah kiyumis (according to R’ Moshe) of yishuv Eretz Yisroel any different?
I guess the only reason not to go, at least according to R’ Moshes’s teshuvah, is if it were in fact too dangerous. But in my opinion, danger is an objective halachic status. So unless the millions of Jews already in Israel are violating venishmartem for every moment that they are in EY (and I don’t think any posek would go that far to say that they are), then it is not too dangerous to go to EY. I don’t understand what R’ Moshe seems to say that danger is subjective.
If I have a rabbi? You sure get mean when you disagree with someone. I actually asked the Rov of my shul (who is not a Religious Zionist) and he told me that many have asked the question and he personally does not have a firm grasp of what R’ Moshe meant. The only comparison he could bring is the opinion of the Gra that you get a mitzvah every time you eat matzah over Pesach but it’s not a chiyuv… but even that concept he doesn’t really understand.
And it is not worse than it was at that time. People died by the droves trying to travel from Europe to Israel by horse and buggy or however they travelled. How many Nefesh BNEfesh fatalities are there? There were crusades and wars that killed many, not to mention the lack of food and infrastructure in the Land of Israel during the Middle Ages. You may need to relearn history if you think EY was safer in the 1300s than it is today.
And I don’t know if it’s definitely worse now than it was when R’ Moshe wrote the teshuvah. But even if it is, you can’t assume he would say it’s assur to go nowadays because it’s too dangerous.
“Why do “religious” Zionists always hold like the few Rabbis when it comes to Israel?!? “
Just like Chassidim follow their Rebbeim even when they are in the minority, Religious Zionists (without quotations around religious) follow their rabbonim.
Honestly, I don’t really understand R’ Moshe’s opinion. First of all, what’s a mitzvah kiyumis? An optional mitzvah? Mitzvah means commandment so saying it’s optional is a bit contradictory. Also, what does it mean to consider R’ Chaim Cohen’s opinion? It’s either objectively dangerous and we shouldn’t go, or it’s not dangerous and we should go? Is R’ Moshe saying that the dangers R’ Chaim Cohen refers to are subjective? For some people it’s dangerous while for others not so each person should take into consideration if it’s too dangerous for them? What does that even mean?
Either way, at the very least, R’ Moshe says it’s a good thing to go to Eretz Yisroel… he calls it a mitzvah kiyumis (whatever that means). So I don’t think R’ Moshe is a ra’ayah that it is assur to go to Eretz Yisroel because it’s too dangerous. I don’t think moving to Eretz Yisroel is an issue of “v’nishmartem” that everyone who lives in E”Y ius violating.
By the way, I also resent the fact that you say I’m pushing the “Zionist agenda”. Everyone who disagrees with how you interpret the mitzvah of yishuv Eretz Yisroel or how the Geulah is supposed to come is pushing some sort of secular agenda? Eilu vaEilu Divrei Elokim Chaim… I think you should give a little more respect to those who disagree with you.
Health- is there any posek that actually says it is halachically forbidden to live in EY because it’s too dangerous?
I think arguments can be made on both sides whether the Medinah is the beginning of the geulah or not. It’s impossible to say with conviction either way. But I don’t think obsessing over or living in EY has anything to do with whether the geulah has started or not. EY is our homeland, we have an opportunity to return, haschalas hageulah or not.
Personally, I think one of the most compelling arguments that the geulah has started is kibutz galuyos which is the return of the Jewish People to Israel. For generations, no one knew whether it will happen through natural or miraculous means, but now it seems to be happening naturally. Klal Yisroel is literally returning to Eretz Yisroel. If that’s not Kibutz Galuyos, I don’t know what is (unless you know for sure it has to happen through miracles, but I don’t think any one of us is a navi that can say conclusively that kibutz galuyos can not happen through natural means).
“What’s your obsession with Israel? The country is run by people who don’t keep the Torah.”
I don’t understand what one has to do the other. Eretz Yisroel is our homeland. We should be obsessed with it regardless of who runs it. Using Zionism as an excuse to delegitimize Eretz Yisroel is in my opinion one of the biggest dangers of anti-Zionism.
If one did not every word but read from a Chumash what he missed (as long as more than half of the megila came from hearing the baal kriah from a Kosher Megila or reading from a kosher Megila) one is yotzei.
I remember a story I heard a long time ago explaining why R’ Moshe did not shuckle. I think when he was still in Russia before he came to the United States he was arrested by the secret police for some reason and he was forced to stand motionless for a number of hours (possibly while being interrogated). R’ Moshe said that he never felt fear like that in his entire life and he wanted to recreate that fear every time he stood in tefila before the Ribono shel Olam.
We should daven that those who are innocent do not suffer, and those who are guilty do teshuvah or pay the consequences without collateral damage. We should not daven that all of the Yidden should get off scot free if they in fact did do something wrong without doing teshuvah.
We should also daven that this entire event should conclude without any Chilul Hashem (though it may be too late for that).