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If there were people who believed it was un-tzniyus to wear seatbelts, I would imagine there would be some Rabbanim who wouldn’t simply say “eilu va’eilu” but try and actively stop other Jews from doing something that’s dangerous and could lead to loss of life.
Simialrly, I completely understand R’ Twersky who is not content with saying “let them do metzitzah bapeh” because he believes it’s a sakanah and therefore is doing what he can to protect the health and lives of babies.
There actually is a major controversy whether we can be mechalel Shabbos for metzitzah nowadays. We aren’t mechalel Shabbos to heat up the water for the baby because even though the Gemara says we should, the sakanah no longer exists. There are poskim who say that since according to the Gemara metzitzah is also for a sakanah that we no longer believe exists then one is not allowed to be mechalel Shabbos for it.
stuck- Gemara and S”A only say metitzah. To the best of my knowledged it never specifies by mouth. For all I know, doing it with a tube is just as good and is probably safer.
And it is a big machlokes whether Chazal knew science or not. I’m not saying one way or another, but there are Gedolim on both sides of the issue. If I’m not mistaken, the Gemara says we have to wash the baby with hot water after the bris because of sakanah (or something along those line) which we don’t practice anymore because it’s no longer a sakanah. Whatever you say either nishtaneh hateva or they were basing themselves on medical science that has been disproven, we don’t practice the science in the Gemara. Therefore, metzizah, which may have been done orally in the time of the Gemara, might be dangerous nowadays.
yitzchokm- it has nothing to do with modernizing. It has to do with that metzitzah bapeh might be more dangerous than metzitzah bakli (which is equally archaic yet no one wants to stop that), and since there is no source that metzitzah has to be done with peh, there is no reason not to do it the safer way.
“because we are now “enlightened” and understand and now know better then our forefathers?” some could argue that Chazal, the Rishonim, and early Achronim (the forefathers I assume you mean) were not as advanced in science and medicine as we are (I’m assuming they would have had no problem smoking as many of our gedolim in previous generations did before it was medically proven to be dangerous) and were unaware of the potential dangers in metzitzah bapeh.
yitzchokm- you should learn more about the Modern Orthodox movement before being motzi laaz. Don’t worry, you still have 6 months until Yom Kippur to ask mechilah.
What is the source for metzitzah bapeh? The Gemara only says metzitzah. Other than tradition, why isn’t metztzah bakli good enough to fulfill the mandate of metzitzah? Is it possible that the only reason metzitzah bapeh was practiced was because there was no kli good enough, but if you had a kli that could get the same results, then it would be just as good as metzitzah bapeh (and possibly better if it carries less health risks)?
1. I don’t know which “most poskim” you are referring to, but the S”A is not among that group.
2. Don’t count Rishonim on your list of poskim.
3. You lose credibility when one of the “poskim” on your list who agrees with the Ran, is the Ran.
4. If the government of Israel is a “malchus shel risha’a”, so would every other government in the world. They are no worse to the Charedim then anyone else, and they are probably better because they give more money to them than any other government would.
1. I don’t know which “most poskim” you are referring to, but the S”A is not among that group.
2. Don’t count Rishonim on your list of poskim.
3. You lose credibility when one of the “poskim” on your list who agrees with the Ran, is the Ran.
4. If the government of Israel is a “malchus shel risha’a”, so would every other government in the world. They are no worse to the Charedim then anyone else, and they are probably better because they give more money to them than any other government would.
For the record- people who bash MO don’t really understand it. The MO’s that aren’t shomrei halachah, aren’t really MO- they just claim to be. The difference between MO and Yeshvish is how much involvement in the secular world is ideal. Please don’t take the people who aren’t tzniyus, who don’t follow halacha and don’t learn Torah as Representative of MO.
Chazal say that HKBH took BY out of Egypt through the Yam Suf on 12 different paths. Chazal also say that the walls separating them were see through. One has to be able to understand that there are multiple paths to G-d, and we must be able to see each other and accept each other.
Smoking is just as assur as eating fish and meat together (if not more). Sakanah chamira mei’isura,
Is a person a rasha? Depends on his intention. If his intention is because he thinks this tradition is archaic and disgusting, then I would lean more towards yes. If the reason is because he believes it’s a sakanah and that any mohel could inadvertently harm the baby, then no.
On a side note, what is the source for metzitzah bapeh? The Gemara only says metzitzah. Other than tradition, why isn’t metztzah bakli good enough to fulfill the mandate of metzitzah?
Hershi- still didn’t answer my question. Why do they receive sechar for doing something that leads to tiflus?
hershi- so according to the S”A (and I don’t think anyone argues on the S”A) the women receive schar for engaging in something that leads to tiflus?
I still don’t understand why people are arguing this. The S”A is clear- women receive schar for learning. How could this be a bad thing? Why would one receive schar for doing the wrong thing? Why do we assume that any woman who wants to learn Torah is doing it for feminist reasons? What happened to dan lekaf zechus? If a woman has spare time, learning Torah is the best way to spend that time (as long as it’s not coming at the expense of Torah she is chayav in, and as long as it’s not for lo lishmah/feminist reasons).
By willingly, I mean lishmah.
Sushe- S”A actually says that women receive schar for learning Torah but a father who teaches it to his daughter it’s as if he taught her tifuls. As I have mentioned before, if the S”A was against women learning Torah, then they wouldn’t receive a reward for learning it. S”A probably means it’s tifuls if you force it on a woman who is not receptive to it. But if she’s doing it willingly, then it’s not tiflus, but deserving of reward.
tzaddiq- for millenia blacks, women, the mentally and physically disabled, and others were mistreated. Does that mean that it’s innately moral and ethical to discriminate against those people?
Besalel- You say good, but say better. Tuition should be on the tzibur (at least the tzibur that attends that school). Tuition should not be a bill but a tax. It should be percentage of your income no matter how much you make, there is no dollar amount for tuition. The more your income, the more you pay in tuition.
GAW- +1
Too many people abuse local yeshivos by taking scholarships. I heard a story of someone with a $150,000 a year salary applying for scholarship because “why not?” Other stories of people lying about vacations and summer homes to schools so that they can take scholarships. Tuition is a bill like anything else and needs to paid in full. Yeshivos happen to want everyone to get a Torah education (as opposed to the electric company who couldn’t care less if you get electricity if you don’t pay in full) so they offer scholarships. Too many people take what they don’t need and the yeshivos suffer.
A wife’s consent is not enough for a husband to learn in kollel, one must take into account the children. How do you know they are okay living in poverty-like conditions for the sake of Torah? Who said they are okay with their mother working full time and not spending time at home for the sake of Torah?
The status quo for every Jew should be to move to Eretz Yisroel unless there is a compelling reason to stay in Chutz LaAretz, and not the other way around
All Ashkenazim (including Israelis) should at least learn and daven (if not speak) with havara Ashkenazis (when speaking Hebrew or Aramaic).
All Jews (including the Ashkenazic Yeshivish) should at least learn and daven (if not speak) with the emphasis on the correct syllables (when speaking any language especially Hebrew and Aramaic).
And I don’t think schools should be teaching talmidim to speak Hebrew with “oy” instead of “oh” because (to the best of my knowledge) that’s not correct according to any havarah.
People need to refer to President Obama with more respect as he is our leader, even if we disagree with many of his policies.
Whether the establishment of Medinas Yisroel violated the 3 Shvuos is irrelevant. We have to have an attitude of hakaras hatov as the Medinah is the shaliach of HKBH which enables there to be more Torah and Jews in Eretz Yisroel since possibly the fall of Beitar.
ZK- I agree that ideally every person should be learning. However, it becomes a problem when there are people who don’t learn so seriously who are getting paid to learn. They are taking money from people who expect their money to go towards serious learners, and they are taking money away from people who are serious learners.
It’s also a problem when children expect parents and in laws to support them in learning, and when parents and in laws feel pressure to support their children in learning. Parents have a right to take their hard earned money and use it for themselves (and maybe even retire early to learn). If a child wants to sit and learn, they should be prepared to live on bread and water, and make sure your wife and kids are okay with that. Every penny given to them is a gift.
It’s a problem when guys sit and learn for a few years without thinking about a career, and then a few years down the line when they need money, they have no way to earn it.
It’s a problem when women (even willingly) are “forced” to work full time to support their families when the father is learning, when the real role of the mother is to raise their families. Better to have a full time working father and a full time mother wife or a part time working part time learning father and a part time working part time mother wife, then a full time learning husband and a full time working wife with no mother in the family.
Our schools start teaching Gemara too early without building a strong enough foundation in Tanach, Mishnah, Halachah, and Hashkafah.
It is permissible and probably a positive thing for girls to be learning Gemara (S”A says they receive reward) – as long as they want to do it for lishmah non-feminist reasons, and the time spent learning Gemara is not coming at the expense of the areas of Torah that a woman is chayav in
IMHO, I have heard arguments both ways and the arguments to wear techeiles seem much much stronger than the arguments not to wear it. Nevertheless, and I’m saying this as a YU boy (though not a talmid of R’ Schachter), since most Gedolei Yisro’el don’t paskin to wear it, they must know something that I don’t, and out of deference to them, I don’t wear it. Though, every time I say Shema I do feel guilty and hope that I have the opportunity to wear techeiles one day.
YU doesn’t really have a hashkafah. Supposedly it’s “Torah UMadda” but almost every Rosh Yeshiva defines it differently. Also, the Y and the U don’t really have much to do with each other, other than the fact that they are on the same campus. Basically, YU is a place of high level learning with Roshei Yeshiva who are outstanding talmidei chachamim. You don’t have to waste time traveling to class, and your classes will be all male.
Imho, a white shirt is the uniform that the Yeshivos happened to adopt. A uniform is important for unity and conformity, not wearing the uniform is symbolic that you don’t hold of the institution that you supposedly belong to, but this is only applicable where this is the “accepted” uniform. In most yeshivos, white is the uniform even though it’s not inherently significant, and wearing colored shirts would tell us a lot about that talmid and his values. In places where it’s not the uniform (like YU), then wearing white is much less meaningful, and not wearing white is not a statement at all.
Eh… I don’t see the point. Anyone who is a big enough sports fan to want to follow on Yeshiva World probably checks ESPN or another sports page anyways. I doubt anyone will stop going to those sites to follow on YWN.
golden mom- you miss my point. But G-d didn’t praise EY with raspberries. There are 7 minim (and milk) that G-d praises EY for. It doesn’t make sense that any of these foods should be impossible to eat, because what type of praise would that me? In fact (as I said before) that’s how Chazal knows that milk is kosher, because if it was treif then G-d would not have praised EY with it. That’s like praising EY as the land of bacon, that doesn’t make sense because we can’t eat bacon. So how is EY the land of figs if we can’t eat them?
“Not that this is a halachic sevara at all, but it’s kind of hard to believe that one of the fruits that Hashem praises Eretz Yisroel for is almost impossible to eat halachically.”
(Yes- I know I’m quoting myself) It is a good sevara! Gemara in Bechoros 6b asks how do we know that milk is mutar? Isn’t it eiver min hachai? One of the answers the Gemara gives is that since we know Eretz Yisroel is praised by being called zavas chalav udevash, it must be that chalav is mutar because otherwise why would Eretz Yisroel be praised with something that is assur?
I repeat my question- how could it be that figs are one of the fruits that Hashem praises Eretz Yisroel for, if it is so infested that it is pretty much assur to eat?
I think for tznius reasons, ONLY women should drive:
1. There is so much pritzus in the world that one has to look at if he is driving. Better for a woman to look at it while driving than a man.
2. Issur of bitul Torah- how can a man learn from his Gemara while trying to drive?
3. Much more tznius for a woman to drive her own car then to be out in public transportation.
I one time heard that life insurance is the opposite of an ayin hara. You have more people hoping that you live. Once you get life insurance, the insurance companies hope you live as long as possible.
So, does the belt hold the pants up or do the pants hold the belt up?
HaLeivi- I meant to apply it specifically here where Hashem praised Eretz Yisroel for this food. It would be kind of strange if Hashem showered the land of Israel with praise by calling it the land of bacon, because what kind of praise would that be for the Jewish People who can’t eat bacon? Similarly, Hashem is calling Eretz Yisroel the land of figs (among other things), what’s that supposed to mean to us if we can’t eat them?
I like to eat from the 7 minim in general, especially when I’m in Eretz Yisroel. It’s such a shame that we can’t eat figs. Not that this is a halachic sevara at all, but it’s kind of hard to believe that one of the fruits that Hashem praises Eretz Yisroel for is almost impossible to eat halachically.
The Mesilas Yesharim talks about the value of chumros, and imho, the more the better. However, one has to realize that there are three types of chumros:
1. I’m doing a chumra because I want people to think I’m frum.
2. I’m doing a chumra because I’m an am ha’aretz, I don’t know the halachah, therfore I will be machmir so I don’t make a mistake.
3. I know the halachah, I know the different shitos, and while I know we paskin lekula, I want to be machmir because it will have a positive impact on my avodas Hashem.
Number three is (imho) the type of chumra that the Mesilas Yesharim was talking about. Number one should never be done, and number two should only be done when stuck, and you should look up the halachah as soon as you can.
In addition, if we paskin lekula and a person is choosing to be machmir, his chumras should never be imposed on someone else. Better to be meikil then to be machmir and inconvenience others (forcing others to carry because you don’t want to hold by a perfectly good eruv is an example).
Also, chumras are a choice, an instrument to be a better oveid Hashem, and never should be a source of arrogance. As soon as the chumras are causing you to feel arrogant and/or to look down on others, it’s doing more harm than good and should be stopped.
Come on Mod… you know he meant that they are just made with fleishig equipment and you can be eaten after milk.
I don’t think there is anything wrong with a frum Jew eating Goyish brands (I don’t think a frum Jew should be “digging into” anything). However, there is a halachah that one should buy from Jews before buying from Goyim. That doesn’t mean that if a Jew is selling it at three times the price you have to buy it from him, or you have to buy a brand that you don’t like just because it’s Jewish, but that you’re looking to support Jews before you look to support Goyim.
The way I look at it, if there is a Jewish product that’s more expensive than the Goyish, or there is a Jewish product that you like less than the Goyish version: what would you do if your own brother was selling it? If the difference between the Jewish and Goyish brand is small enough that you would buy the brand you like less if your brother was selling it, then you should buy the Jewish brand. If however the difference is so great that even if your brother was selling it, you would buy the other one, than you don’t have to buy the Jewish brand.
mw13-
As I said before, (I think) Chareidim believe that secular society is dangerous and should only be used when necessary. Insular to the extreme means not using it even when it’s necessary.
I’ve hear stories of people who suffer from substance abuse issues (and I imagine the same story exists for people suffering from psychological problems and family issues) whose families refuse to acknowledge the problem. I was told that one reason for this problem is because the families involved didn’t want to expose their families to secular society who would be able to provide the help necessary. I’m sure there are also people who refuse to get jobs and acquire a parnassah for their family because they don’t want to be involved in secular society. Also, imho, being too insular also goes hand in hand with a lack of respect for the government and its laws (in both the USA and Israel, though I imagine this problem in Israel has far deeper philosophical roots than the problem in the USA).
IMHO, in the theoretical sense, MO and Chareidim are not that different. They both believe in the 13 ikkarim of the Rambam, and are shomrei Halachah kedas ukedin. They value Torah and believe Jews should be different than the Goyim. The main difference is how you view secular society. Chareidim view secular society as dangerous and one should only interact with secular society when necessary. MO believes that while secular society is dangerous, it also has a lot to offer, so we should use secular society for its advantages, and stay away from the negatives.
Unfortunately, significant members of both movements took these values too far. Many Chareidim are insular to the extreme, even to the extent where they are being hurt. Many MO’s use secular society when they shouldn’t, and are exposed and influenced in negative ways.
This is why people think MO is about being excessively meikil and being like the Goyim, but it’s not true. MO is about being Jewish, and distinct from the Goyim while using secular society for its positives. Unfortunately, too many people went too far into secular society, and are giving true MO’s a bad name.
Mod- I also think you’re being harsh. You’re allowed to question psak (though you still must follow it), and so far I haven’t heard a good answer to the question (and it’s one that’s been bothering me for a long time).
It seems the shape of the legs argument only applies to tight pants, but loose pants (and I think they are beginning to lose their status as beged ish) should be just as tzniyus as pants.
I heard people give the slippery slope argument (loose pants lead to tight pants), but according to that logic, women shouldn’t wear skirts because it may lead to tight or short skirts, they shouldn’t wear shirts because it mau lead to short sleeves or worse, maybe they shouldn’t leave the house at all! It’s all a slippery slope!
Another suggestion to number one is not having so many people learn in kollel. The Gemara in Chagigah says that Hashem cries for those who don’t learn Torah and should, and for those who learn Torah and shouldn’t. Full time kollel is not for most people, it is for the individuals. Too many people use kollel as an excuse for not working, and too many people feel entitled to support from their parents and in-laws. The kavod of Torah has gone down because of the way people abuse kollelim. People need to take life more seriously or else there will be no more money for future generations.
Health- the mitzvah could be “al ta’amod al dam rei’echa” “hochei’ach tochi’ach es amitecha” or simply “kol Yisro’el areivim zeh la(ba) zeh.”
The same question can be asked “if you were FFB and you had the opportunity to leave Yiddishkeit, would you?”
I imagine most of us would say no, but it could for one of at least two reasons. “I wouldn’t leave because I know I have the truth,” so for these people, if they can be convinced of the truth if they weren’t frum in the same way that they are convinced now, I imagine they would change their lives for the sake of truth.
But if the answer is “I don’t have the guts to leave” then maybe they have some serious introspection to do, and they probably wouldn’t be fazed religious Judaism to change their lives.