sechel83

people kept on coming up with more and more things to attack chassidim with, first it was we want moshiach now, then how can chabad say their rebbe is moshiach (before 3 tamuz) , then after 3 tamuz it was how can moshiach be from the dead. just another accuse.
it seems some litvaks dont are scared of moshiach ?? dont know!!

i think from being around, the litvaks dont talk about it beetween themselves, but when they bump into chabad in camps or vacations, they – the teenagers and kids attack the chabad kids or teenagers, maybe they come back to school and mention to their friends what happened. b”h today the typical litvak respects chabad,
but just to mention, a regular litvak is not taught in school about chabad, so they just hear random stuf from their friends like they do kiruv, and mivtzoim, many young ones think that the chabad houses are there for them to have a minyan when they go on vecation.
its like in chabad we are not toaght about their gadol hador and many in chabad never heard of alot of things by them and may think its strang or even have things about them twisted.

lets say i would say yes, would i be a kofer or apikores or both? please explain why?
i believe the rebbe had the neshama of yechida haklolis and was the moshiach of the generation, now he can still be, but i believe there is someone alive today who can be moshiach. i beleive this is the comen belief in chabad meshichist which i have no clue how big this group is

one can only know what a misnaged is if he knows what chassidus is. some say they are against chabad cuz …… did you ever learn keser shem tov from the baal shem tov or baal shem tov al hatorah?

you can see it on otzar hachachma in the sefer ביקור שיקאגו which is the sichos the frierdike rebbe said in chicago in 5702 page 21
you can find ספר השיחות תשב there also but youll need to buy a subscription to see past the first 100 pages i don’t know why Hebrew books doesn’t have it.
(btw now you can attack me for writing 100 and not 150)
anyways i dont even know what were arguing about anymore. i just brought this up to point out – like even you just wrote – that the misnagdim were against the idea of “A major issue was the replacement or addition to the talmid chochom as the only leadership position of klal yisroel, with someone whose chief activities and notoriety was in the area of avodah and tzidkus. While integral to yiddishkeit, the idea of a leader being defined as a leader by anything else besides torah was objectionable.”
i was pointing out that today this is what we do in chabad, we have out talmid chachom – the rebbe – (anyone honest who looked into the rebbe knows he was a גאון עולם) and we give him major respect.

bh the teachings of the baal shem tov hakadosh are being spread more and more, and more and more people are following what he thought. אימתי קאתי מר לכשיפוצו מעינותיך חוצה. bh may it be very soon.

yserbius please tell me about this machlokes when techiyas hamasim will be.
ראה יומא ה,ב, based on that gemara some explain that tzadikim will have techiyas hamasim right when moshiach comes, but even without that: everyone agrees that there will be techiyas hamasim, can someone explain to me what is the sevara that moshiach cant be from the masim?
even according to the zohar (which probobly only chabad heard of) that techiyas hamasim will be later, explain to me the simple reason for it. if you cant explain it to me, then learn לקוטי שיחות חלק כז בחוקתי.

avaira, the point i was referring to in tanya was to explain what a tzadik is. perek bais explains the different levels of neshamos, a talmid chachon is a neshama diatzilus, if you want to understand a little what is means, look in the chabad biurim, or basi ligani 5729, or just take the words and have no clue what is means, 29 also takls about what a tzadik is.
keser shem tov was the first sefer printed of the teachings of the baal shem tov btw, you should learn the whole thing before criticize chabad, cuz youll see, its all there.

you can learn about it in לקוטי שיחות פרשת בחוקתי.

ראה כתר שם טוב קלב, הוספות צב, קלה,קלו,קלח,קמג,קנז, קנח
ראה תניא פרק ב, כט
ועוד ועוד

avaira: “Plus the fact that in 2,000 years of seforim, the messianics can only find 2 mentions of even the concept of moshiach from the maysim, shows how beyond the pale the idea is.”
how many times can you find in seforim that moshiach needs to be alive before moshiach comes? and that someone who says moshiach can come from the dead is an apikores?
the rambam? how can the rambam say
אל יעלה על הלב שבימות המשיח יבטל דבר ממנהגו של עולם או יהיה שם חידוש במעשה בראשית אלא עולם כמנהגו נוהג ….. אמרו חכמים אין בין העולם הזה לימות המשיח אלא שיעבוד מלכיות בלבד.
what about techiyas hamasim? its not a chidush in masai birashis?
so in chabad we learn about moshiach in depth and it comes out that in hilchos milachim basiclly the rambam is explaining the geder of moshiach al pi halacha, in a matzav of lo zachu, but in a motzav of zachu, it can be different.
if you dont like this answer, so you have another one? show how much you know about this sugya!
dont just take lines of a sugya you never spent time learning!
i only said “just learn chassidus” about people having attacks on chassidus, i wouldn’t attack a line in a medicine book lihavdil, cuz i never learned medicine and have no clue the terms and how it works. . anyone with a brain understands what i mean. stupid argument.
im very proud the less i know about other gedolim, i have one rebbe that’s enough, i try to follow his teachings, what i do realize on this forum is that alot of litvaks dont have a clear derech – they take one thing from this gadol, another thing from another gadol etc. i.e. r’ shach was against the way most litvaks spent weeks on a blatt gemara (מכתבים ומאמרים) reb moshe was also. many more examples.

@avira. thats exactly my point, those were the original complaints. (i cant argue about history, you can do research) today these ideas are laughable that even you think they could never have happened.

Edited for rudeness

so now i remember “The Rosh Yeshiva of The Hildesheimer Seminar”, i heard about it recently after reading the book “turning judaism outward” he mentions the story that the rebbe needed to get a rabbinical degree from there to get into berlin, so the rebbe told him he can test him on any sefer in his library, r hildesheimer gave the rebbe a sefer he himself wrote recently to study, and the rebbe came back a few days later to get tested.
i focus more on the rebbe’s maamarim and sichos then on the story’s. in fact it says in the above book, that the rebbe only mentioned once publicly by a farbrengen anything about the university. i have nothing against rav hirsh, chas vishalom. my derech is chassidus chabad, (b”h i enjoy this derech, i dont think there is anything else i need,) and there are hundreds of sifrai chassidus chabad to keep me busy for many yrs to come.
“If the shoe fits….” thats my point that someone decided that moshiach cant come from the dead even though its a clear gemara, abarbenel, sdai chemed etc. or other things and storys about what some chabad chassidim do that are just bologna, once you beleive the bologna, that justifies all the lashon hara etc.

btw for the peaple complaining chabad learns too much chassidus and sichos and not gemara
1) litvaks do the smae thing, they focus on r chaim, reb baruch ber, just learn the gemarah and rishonim!
2) so you have an issue that be look at our rebbe with too much respect, 1) its a clear mishnah מורא רבך כמורא שמים, כל המהרהר אחר רבו כמהרהר אחרי שכינה. many more, 2) one of the big issues the original misnagdim had with chassidus, was that the baal shem tov said that even tzadikim need to do teshuvah, they shouldnt be happy with their level of serving hashem, and that he was mikarev simple yidden, he sent his students – tzadikim to learn about ענוה and other middos tovos from simple jews. just saying, cuz now you say we give too much kavod to a real talmid chacham. whatever its all excuses. learn החלצו תרנט.

so some people have an issue:
sinas chinam, lashon hara, motzi shem ra etc.
so whats their solution? first be motzi shem ra that they are apikorsim, then that justifies being further motzi shem ra, lashon hara ..
that works maybe to jusify yourself to your freind but to g-d?
you should check what the baal shem tov says on נפרעין מן האדם מדעתו ושלא מדעתו,
כי שמעתי בשם הבעל-שם-טוב: כי קודם כל גזר דין שבעולם חס ושלום, מאספין כל העולם אם מסכימין להדין ההוא, ואף את האיש בעצמו שנגזר עליו הדין חס ושלום, שואלין אותו אם הוא מסכים, אזי נגמר הדין חס ושלום, והענין, כי בודאי אם ישאל לו בפירוש על עצמו, בודאי יכחיש ויאמר שאין הדין כן, אך מטעין אותו, ושואלין אותו על כיוצא בו, והוא פוסק הדין, ואזי נגמר הדי

reb aharon solovaichik – who wrote the letter (you can search it on google to see a copy) passed away in 2001

i havo issue saying that i misinterpreted the kuntres acharon,
the problem is that you need to read past the first line, (if you can’t understand past there, then either 1) learn more chassidus till you understand, or 2) dont say opinions on something you dont know
in chassidus this is a big sugya whats higher and whats the kavana, etzem, giluyim etc. mentions it in tanya many times, learn hemshech 5666 – around 1000 (yes one thousend) pages and come back.
btw a quote from the kuntres acharon:
אלא שידיעת המציאות מההשתלשלות, היא גם כן מצוה רמה ונשאה, ואדרבה – עולה על כולנה, כמו שכתוב: ״וידעת היום כו׳״, ״דע את אלקי אביך כו׳״, ומביאה ל״לב שלם״ כו׳, שהוא העיקר, והשגת המציאות הוא להפשיט מגשמיות כו

בקיץ תשנ”ו כתב נשיא “הסתדרות הרבנים” בארה”ב מכתב מחוצף, ובו טען כי אמונתם של חסידי חב”ד שהרבי הוא מלך המשיח, מיוסדת רח”ל על מקורות זרים. המכתב עורר סערה בקרב יהדות ארה”ב, ורבים דרשו לדעת האם אכן עומדים רבני “הסתדרות הרבנים” מאחורי הדברים האלה. כאשר שמע על כך הרב סולובייצ’יק (שהיה מנהיגה הרוחני של הסתדרות זו), פרסם מכתב חריף, “גילוי דעת”, בז’ תמוז תשנ”ו בכל העיתונים היהודיים בארצות הברית ובו מבהיר בצורה שאינה משתמעת לשני פנים, כי האמונה שהרבי הוא מלך המשיח מבוססת על מקורות איתנים בגמרא ובספרי הפוסקים, כמו גם בספרי הקבלה ובדברי הרבי עצמו:

“להלן מענה לשאלות הרבות אודות עמדתי בהנוגע לליובאוויטש ואמונתם המשיחית.

לפני ג’ תמוז כללתי את עצמי בין אלה שהאמינו כי הרבי היה ראוי להיות המשיח. אני מאמין באופן מוחלט, כי לו היינו – במיוחד הקהילה האורטודוקסית – מאוחדים, היינו זוכים לגאולה השלמה.

בהנוגע לאמונה של רבים מאנשי ליובאוויטש (כולל רבנים מובהקים וראשי ישיבות) – אמונה המיוסדת בחלקה על התבטאויות דומות של הרבי בעצמו על מורישו הרבי הקודם – שהרבי עדיין יכול להיות המשיח, וזאת לאור הגמרא בסנהדרין, הזהר, אברבנאל, כתבי האריז”ל, שדי חמד ושאר מקורות, אי אפשר לבטלה כאמונה שהיא חוץ לזרם האורטודוקסי. כל ניסיון ציני להשתמש בחילוקי דיעות לגיטימיים בכל הנוגע לפירושים בעניין זה, להכפיש ולהזיק את תנועת ליובאוויטש, שהייתה וממשיכה להיות בחזית הקדמית של אלו הלוחמים במיסיונרים, בהתבוללות, ובאדישות של יהודים ליהדותם, – כל ניסיון כזה יכול רק לתרום לפילוג המצער שממנו סובל כבר המחנה היהודי בכלל והתורני בפרט. על המחנה התורני לגייס את כל כוחותיו, להתאחד ברוח האמיתית של אהבת ישראל, ולהילחם באויב האמיתי של עם ישראל. אני מוחה, וקורא להפסק מוחלט של כל תעמולה או פגיעה בשם הטוב של ליובאוויטש, או כל תנועה לגיטימית אחרת בתוך יהדות התורה”.

additional sources about davening
לקוטי תורה תצא לח, ב
לקוטי תורה פ׳ בהעלותך לב, ד
תורת חיים פ׳ נח נד, ג
just a few, anyway the point was about the importance of davening thats why chassidim spend hours on preparation and the actual davening
the misnagdim were against this from the time of the baal shem tov,
and in those times there were many debates, read the debate in minsks etc,
and to yserbius – im not in denial its just we in chebad dont need to answer our minhagim taught to us by קדושי עליון, we couldnt care less what others have to say. (its only we try to spread the light of chassidus cuz we love every jew) – although i cant understand why anyone would try to hide the rebbes amazing teaching which besides from the intellectual aspect of it, they also give one a chayos in yiddishkiet like nothing else – טעמו וראו כי טוב הוי’ פארזוכט וועט איר זעהן אז דער אויבערשטער איז גוט. (taste chassidus and you’ll see how good hashem and yiddishkiet is)

sorry mistake קיד not קיב.
just because you saw one person have a meal doesn’t mean that thats what chabad does, i saw a litvak come to shul late, skip half of davening cuz shulchan aruch says to skip if you come late, but you shouldnt be coming late, i also saw a jew speaking lashon hara – that means its accepted?
so the way the baal shem tov thought is that when you see a nother yid doing something wrong, we look at ourselves and say that im not devoting myself enough to davening, not him (the litvak i saw).
anyway learn the first 4 volumes of likutai sichos, and if you still have any questions on chabad, then come back, some people learn a bit on tanya and think they understand it, then claim all their claims, you dont understand anything.

the reason chabad eats before davening is simple. the shulchan aruch harav paskens that if one needs to eat to be able to have more kavana by davening, its permited. the custom in chabad is to learn 1-2 hours (at least) of chassidus before davening – to prapare for davening – learning about gadlus ha-kel, then to daven which is a major focus – (also mikvah, hisbonenus, long davening (a good few hours) (the alter rebbe says in tanya that todays days davening is the ikur avoda (not torah – like in the time of gemara))
so most people would be very hungry if they did not eat

its funny how litvaks think they are the policemen of the world!

like i wrote before, read the words its talking about asking for a tikun.
anyways i have a great idea: all the litvaks who didn’t learn chassidus (a good amount of the seforim 10+ (i should really say 100+)) they should in stead of arguing about chassidus, which they know nothing about, there is plenty of arguments you can have with other litvaks, like brisk with rav shach, about voting, the get, or yeshiva university and הגאון האדיר ר’ יוסף דוב סולובייטשיק with brisk of yerushalayim, etc, etc,

so back to my point: just send the original that says to daven to the rebbe what proof do you have that such a things exists? all you tell me is that it was in the older print so get me it! just bologna

i didnt see those words there.
so the rebbe is explaining about asking about asking תיקונים
then the rebbe brings the zohar of ישראל אורייתא וקוב”ה כולא חד
and the rebbe brings other examples of this concept from zohar, tanya and in the haara from yerushalmi.
so youre attack is the the zohar is apikorsos? or the yerushalmi? only bavli is torah?
(i didint have time right now to learn the whole sicha, but i did in the past, i never remembered this claim from this sicha, i guess when you learn לקנטר you understand different)
i did’nt understand if what you posted was the original print or subsequent?