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@yankel berel. I have no issue with the history of the Rebbe. I think the only people who think that book speaks negative about the Rebbe are the people who only read the introduction and as one of his own conclusions, there isn’t any negative history there, I think everyone should read it (but I think chaim millers book is much more researched.)
It’s hard for people like us to calculate the level of depth in the rebbe’s Torah. But one thing is seems to everyone clear is the Rebbe was Baki in basically every Sefer printed before the war. To as and I’m not trying to say that there weren’t others, but it’s a chutzpah for people to disrespect the Rebbe, that’s allthe difference between chabad’s view on chabad and the rebbe, and the misnagdim is this:
chabad: look at over 200 volumes of the rebbes torah, videos, audio, first hand stories of open ruach hakodesh and miracles (even many stories you can see the actual miracle or ruach hakodesh on video), we have nothing to hide, if you dont see the gadlus, well you must be beyond stupid.
misnaged: my freind in 9th grade told me that rav .. said this, rav .. said this. even though rav moshe and every other litvishe gadolim respected chabad (as documented) but that was before…, i heard that he didn’t really mean it, my rebbi told me that …, professor berger (i guess the latest gadol) wrote … etc…
vda”l
pretty crazy how people can deny such obvious facts.
this is what it says in ikvosa dimshicha@qwerty613 “Rav Moshe was the unquestioned Gadol Hador”
besides for when rav shach wrote a letter against the lag beomer parade, in 5740, and reb moshe wrote a letter afterwards to go, for some reason the misnagdim disregarded reb moshe. or reb moshe’s letter to all jews in 5738 to do the rebbe’s mivtzoim – tefillin etc. all can be found in the sefer מנחם משיב נפשי, documented evidence vs “my friend in 9th grade told me…) or when reb moshe came to the rebbe and had a pivate audience, and said that any inyan in torah to spoke to the rebbe about, it seemed the rebbe just learned the sugya. etc. etc.(i forgot) on my post about the rebbe being a navi, i brought up the point that nisbatel nevuah, and i asked you back that the gemara says that yiras chait and anava were also, so will you attack someone who claims your rosh yeshiva or godol has yiras chait or anava?
so stop hacking and learn the sugya, menachem already quoted the sicha, and a rambam to learn.@mdd, Sechel83, for real? You expect me to give you on the spot pshatim in deep concepts from the Zohar? Most people should not be even looking at those statements. It can cause michsholim as we have seen.
again my point, the reason only litvaks have an issue with it (assuming its not from hate) is because they dont learn chasidus, anyone who learns chassidus is not blown off by it because this is a basic idea of chassidus and was talks about since the baal shem tov.
so i agree with you, litvaks should not look at that statement the first thing, if you start likutai sichos chelek alef, and go in order, by the time you reach that sicha, i guarantee you 100% you wont have any issue with it.
(btw i only found the marai makom of that specific quote thanks to avira on tyw, just trying to say that although i learned the sicha before, its not something i learn every day, the idea is mentioned in i think bahaloscha 5751 about every yid)wo! crazy thread. i didn’t make the psak, plenty of accepted (by you guys i hope (i hope you dont only hold of rav shach) rabbanim did ie. הרב ישעיה אשר אייכנשטיין מזדיטשוב, הרב יעקב מנחם רבינוביץ מביאלא, הרב אהרן רוזנפלד מפינסק קרלין,הרב אליעזר דוב פרידמן (רב בית המדרש בעלזאורב דחסידי בעלזא – מכנובקא, לונדון), הרב שמעון סופר (האדמו”ר מערלוי צפת), הרב אליהו שמעון מרציאנו דיין בבית הדין בעניני ממונות צפת – מירון, הרב אהרן יחיאל לייפר מנדבורנא, הרב יעקב יוסף (בהגר”ע) [רב שכונת גבעת משה, וראש כולל חזון יעקב, ירושלים],
go scream at them,
very simple, the rebbe prophesized what will happen by the 6 day war and the golf war as well as countless private matters, and it happened, the rambam says such a person is a navi (if he goes bidarchai hanvuah which obviously the rebbe is qualified)
@? “and, as usual, ignored actual statements that I cited as ridiculous, e.g. the proof of Messianism from the fact that Beis Mashiach has the gematria of 770.”
first find my the quote! you just hear things from random people, there is a 10 page sicha about the idea of bais rabainu shebibovel, what you wrote is totally twisting that FOOTNOTE (its not a proof to anything) just learn the whole sicha. as well as your issue with shalosh siudos and suckah and i forgot if there was anything else, it all twisting and was already discused on tyw.
(sholosh seudos is a halacha is shu”a, as well as suckah, one of the complaints the litvaks have on suckah is the rebbe said sleeping is not part of the mitzvah – well the rebbe just quotes a rogetchover who makes a diyuk in the rambam, learn the sicha, learn chassidus, and
anyway im thinking of stopping to post
1) i realized that the people who actually have an issue with chabad these days are like 1 in a million
2) i couldnt care less for myself even if every other gadol had an issue with chabad, but i would like to educate people who nebech were misinformed, but i realize, that such people are not looking for the truth.
i may still post when im board to have fun.@mdd thats my point, because we learn chassidus at length and in depth we understand it correctly (look in derech mitzvosecha, shoresh mitzvas hatfilah) the people who dont learn chassidus, see one line out of context and go crazy. and then scream at us for learning kabala cuz they thnk we understand it the same way they do. so whats your pshat?
@arso one of the 13 ikrim is that there is nevuah, the rambam gives simanim on who is a navi which we all saw by the rebbe, signed a psak din that reads as follows
הרינו קובעים בזה פסק הלכה על-פי דין תורתנו הקדושה – מבוסס על ההלכה שברמב”ם פרק ז’ הלכות יסודי התורה הלכה א’, פרק ט’ הלכה ב’ ופרק י’ הלכה א’ – שכבוד קדושת אדמו”ר מלך המשיח יש לו דין נביא ומפורש בשיחותיו הקדושות שמרמז על עצמו שהוא נביא ומובן משיחותיו הקדושות שהוא הוא המלך המשיח, וכן עודד שירת “יחי אדוננו מורנו ורבינו מלך המשיח לעולם ועד”, וכבר אמר לעיני כל ישראל ולעיני כל העולם דברים העתידים להיות ובאו דבריו ונתקיימו במילואם ב’מלחמת ששת הימים’ וב’מלחמת המפרץ’ ועוד ועוד.
ועל כן מחויבים אנו לשמוע לכל אשר יאמר לנו מגדר החיוב לשמוע לדברי הנביא, ובכלל זה – שהוא המלך המשיח ויתגלה אלינו מיד ממש
so if you know any chazal (which from your last attack, it seems not so) you will ask from sotah, well then you will have the same question on anava and yiras chait.
so learn the whole sicha inside, and you wont have questions.here are some quotes from this page:
because I had a rebbe in yeshiva who told us straight out. He said Lubavitchers who think the Rebbe is Mashiach are like Christians
Rav Shach and Dr. Berger said this clearly. There are many Rabbis and laymen who agree with their positions.
I have heard it from several Elder Rosh Yeshivos
Dr. Berger wrote in his book that eight prominent Chabad Rabbis averred that the Rebbe was “G-d clothed in human form.
so i assume some people are trying to claim that all litvaks think chabad are apikorsim, well guess what, the gra put chassidim in cherem, you know why? simply becasue lies were going around about chassidim, thats why already in the times of the tzemach tzedek, the machlokes was over, no one keeps the cherem anymore. so too today, lies were spread etc, history repeats itself.
btw check out my post on a different thread with sources that a neshama is a chelek eloka (including a maharsha and a pnei yehoshua) and @avira thats not what the rebbe says, the question is about asking tikunim from a rebbe dosent say davening there.@qwerty613. someone asked a simililar question to the rebbe, the answer is printed in אגרות קודש חלק א אגרת פה, its a long answer with many sources, fascinating answer.
seforim which say that a neshama is a חלק אלקה ממעל
חדושי אגדות מהרש”א (שבת לב, א חלק אלקה בלי תיבת ממעל) פני יהושע ב”מ נח ב, מלבי”ם ישעי’ נ, א (ובכמה מקומות בספרו) העמק דבר ואתחנן ז, י ובכמה מקומות בספרו. ועוד
רמ”ק בספר הפרדס ריש שער לב, ראשית חכמה שער האהבה פ”א ופ”ב ובכ”מ שם. האריז”ל בשער רוח הקודש דף ל”ט ע”א בהוצאת ירושלים – צויין בהערות על תניא ולקוטי תורה פ’ בראשית. שפע טל (למקובל ר’ שבתי שעפטל הורוויץ, תלמיד הרמ”ק) בהקדמה ובארוכה בספרו נשמת שבתי הלוי (שער ד ואילך). של”ה בבית חכמה בסופו (ובכ”מ בספרו) יושר לבב (לבעל משנת חסידים) בית א חדר ד פ”ב. יערות דבש ח”א דרוש א. אור החיים ר”פ בראשית ועוד
it that enough sources? so whoever has an issue with the sicha, 1) they will need to answer all these sources 2) they will need to answer tanya perek 2 (which i understand today, no one has an isse with the baal hatanya, and as time goes on the same will be with the rebbe. (even today almost no one has issues with the rebbe (alot of litvaks say that r shach went against chabad mainly for saying the rebbe is moshiach cuz he weas worried that if it dosent happen, chabad will go off the derech, well now were almost 30 yrs later))).btw i grew up chabad, i never heard anyone in chabad mention anything about the rebbe being g-d ch”v, the first time i heard of this claim, i was over 20 yrs old, and it was from litvaks, some how they got this crazy ideas in their head that thats what chabad preaches, maybe from dr berger or someone else who thinks כל התורה נתנה לעשות שנאה בעולם,
to much to read today. so ill answer and explain a little for now:
disclaimer this (and any of my other posts)
is my own personal opinion, i dont speak for chabad
my beleif that the rebbe is moshiach has 2 aspects.
1) based on what chassidus is, which is penimius hatorah, its the deepest level of torah called yechida. it reveals סתים דקוב”ה סתים דאורייתא סתים דישראל. and how these three are all one (answers the other attach someone had on עצמות ומהות מלובש בגוף) and how nothing else exists in the world – אחדות ה. now what a rebbe means is the leader of the generation who has the neshama called yechida haklalis and he reveals by everyone in the generation their yechida shebinefesh to some extent in galus, this will be complete when moshiach comes. (based mainly on קונטרס ענינה של תורת החסידות) so obviously i beleive the rebbe is moshiach (chassidim always beleived this about their rebbe)
2) the rambam is writing according to halacha how we can tell if someone is moshiach. so the rambam writes ואם יעמד מלך מבית דוד הוגה בתורה ועוסק במצות כדוד אביו. כפי תורה שבכתב ושבעל פה. ויכף כל ישראל לילך בה ולחזק בדקה. וילחם מלחמות ה’. הרי זה בחזקת שהוא משיח. (אם עשה והצליח ובנה מקדש במקומו וקבץ נדחי ישראל הרי זה משיח בודאי.
so in this aspect to me it seems clear thar the rebbe fit chezkas moshiach and so many rabbonim paskend too. the rebbe never finished and came moshiach vadai.
now (according to my understanding of the rambam) the rambam says that if this person who is bichezkas moshiach dies then he’s not moshiach, but that just means that from a halachik look, you may have thought he was moshiach, you only saw in him chezkas moshiach so now since he died, he’s not. but this is all in #2, meaning if im a simple jew who never learned chassidus, and only understands technical things so i have no reason to say the rebbe is moshiach now, (my whole reason when he was alive would be because i saw he fit the rambam) but since i learned chassidus b”h, and i have a deeper understanding on what moshiach is so the rebbe is prosumingly still moshiach (this does not contradict the rambam like i explained)
disclaimer; obviouly the rambam knew all this, but he wrote his sefer for every jew – כקטן כגדול – like he writes in the hakdama.
i hope i was clear enough – but see קונטרס ענינה של תורת החסידות and likutai sichos vol 27 parshas bechukosai@emunas one: #1 read above.
#2 thanks for the source, but its talking about the idea that the Christians say moshiach already came and is was yoshke, nothing to do with this discussion, i don’t say moshiach already came. and the fact the the ramban published it, well the gemarah was also published. and back to the same question what about the gemarah? and find me a better source that the ramban said moshiach cant come from the dead!aobviouly the rebbe could have made a mistake, we see sometimes he corrected himself when speaking and writing, i dont even understand what you’re trying to ask.
if you mean that i should judge the rebbe chas vishalom, well look in pirkei avos. for mw whatever the rebbe says is kodesh hakodashim! just like gemarah!
and if you think im crazy, well see mechilta parshas bishalach, and brisk says the same type of statements, and im sure other litvaks.
and can you answer this simple question: some litvaks said that beleiving moshiach can come from the dead is kefira, some litvaks take what they said and disregard a clear gemara, can you explain how that is not more extreem with what i wrote.@no mesorah. see tanya אגרת הקדשׁ כו
dont know how to figured that, see קונטרס ענינה של תורת החסידות
(if chassidus is musar of kabala, i might agree with you, but i learned more than a few pages and realized it has nothing to do with either)@emunas did you even learn exactly what the rebbe said or you just saw it in the dumb book of kefira written by a sonei yisroel?
dumb questions, but im still waiting for a source about theses debates with Christians.
and if you have one, well there are many more reasons why yashke cant be moshiach, and you will still need to answer the gemarah, but first lets start with the source,
2) we find in gemarah many times when goyim asked yidden questions and they just gave them an answer to push them away, its not a source, see i.e sanhedrin beginning of perek chelek, meseches tamidthere is actually a story that one of the rebbes said moshiach with be a misnaged because if he is a chosid, the misnagdim wont follow him.
i would definatlly accept the biggest misnaged as moshiach as long as he does what the rambam says moshiach will do. my point is only that al pi chassidus there is a deeper meaning in moshiach, and gemarah and lamdus dosent have anything to do with it, so if hashem desides obviously he can send who he chooses to be moshiach and teach chassidus (see keser shem tov siman 1, and many other places)@coffee addict: to answer your question, i believe the rebbe was a tzadik gamur like the tanya explains and i beleive moshiach will be a tzadik gamur. see derech mitzvosecha mitzvas מינוי מלך. i dont know what you mean by perfect.
@emunas 1: can you please explain what makes such a beleif wrong? does it controdict one of the 13 ikrim and why? (or is it just an argument in pshat of a gemara)@qwerty613
i realized recently that litvaks and others too look ar judaism as groups. everyone of each group needs to do the same thing in your opinion, and if you see soome random lubavitcher do something obviously he speaks for the whole lubavitch.
so ill educate you: if you want to know chabad beleifs – learn chabad seforim from the lubavitcher rebbe’s. to know chabad minhagim: – shulchan aruch of the alter rebbe, sh”ut tzemach tzedek, sefer haminhagim chabad. sharai halacha uminhag, shulchan menachem. (main sources of things we may do different than others)
anything else – not from one of the chabad rebbes – doesn’t talk for the whole chabad. and we should judge everyone lkaf schus even if we think he is doing something wrong or has a wrong beleif, and we should look at ourselves maybe we have the same issue, and fix ourselves. (so says the baal shem tov) and especially if i dont even know the halachos of the thing im judging him for, if i just have my mesorah, well maybe he has a different mesorah.i love how people give opinions about the what is ok about gedolim and what they did thats not ok, so basically these people think they know better than the gadol.
my opinion is i have my rebbe, and i accept him 100%.my point is that people think that a big gadol who knows alot of lamdus is likely to be moshiach, well
the rambam says that only halachos of torah will be forever, (not shaklah vitarya, (questions come from a concealment on g-dliness, and kelipa, when moshiach comes, there will be no more kelipa, or concealments on g-dliness))
my point it that some people dont begin to understand what moshiach is!@avaira. i agree its offensive, but its true. thats the fact, that what tanya calls a tzadik its much greater than a litvak can imagine. and in chabad we spend at least a few hours a day learning about gadlus hashem.
btw the ramban holds there will be everlasting psychical life after techiyas hamasim, chassidus explains this idea in depth, at length.anyone who says that moshiach can not come from tthe dead, is a kofer in torah. (he’s arguing with a clear gemarah)
@damoshe, my point is to make you think, if you have complaints about how moshiach can come from the dead, i ask back this question, time for these antagonist to open a gemarah sanhedrin, rambam hilchos melachim, hilchos teshuvah, etc. (and learn the rebbe’s sichos on moshiach, because simply he the only one who learned and spoke about these sugyos so much, check out the sefer dvar malchus)
my thoughts on some misnagdim who say some chabad says any g-dly terms about the rebbe.
apparently in chabad we have a much greater definition on what is a tzadik, and our understanding (the little we can) and beleif about hashem is also much greater.
so when a chabad says the rebbe lives forever, some litvaks claim “how can you say such a thing? only g-d is forever” (once i heard a misnagdishe rov speak about chabad for saying leolam voed about a person, apperently he dosent know tehillim – 22, suckah perek lulavv vaaravah)
and many claims like this, its the same idea.@someday: my point was to make you think, its a simple answer once you understand the sugya – likutai sichos vol 27 bichukosai. rav yerucham, mamash amazing chizuk vort but docent answer the question.
@american yeshivish kabala and chassidus are not the same. toras moshiach is not kabala its chassidus. you can argue if you want, im just pointing out what shitas hachassidus is. (and musar has nothing to do with chassidus, furthest thing from it)כל המיצר לישראל נעשה ראש גיטין נו
similar can be said about chabad, whoever stands up against chabad becomes a gadol, whoever becomes chabad – like r ezra shochat, r’ yosef avraham heller, r shlome zelig feldman all top bochurim of brisk, but when they became chabad, for some reason the litvaks dont care about their gadlus anymore.“but in the opinion of most of the Gedolim in Klal Yisroel, it absolutely happens and Chabad does nothing to discourage it” – i guess its a machlokes (bimtzius) of the gedolim whether it happens or not, some litvish gedolim think it happens, chabad and chassidish gedolim hold it dosent happen, and that answers simply why they dont do anything about it (the thing that dosent happen).
why would moshiach be someone who is alive? he will teach torah to moshe rabainu and the avos, who alive today is eligible for that?
@yserbius #motzi shem ra, choshed bichsharim.
if someone beleives the rebbe is alive sitting in his chair then what? which one of the 13 ikrim does this contradict. (learn igeres hatshuvah (tanya) #27, sefer chassidim about rebbi, gemarah kesubos 103 i think)im still waiting to see a sefer that says moshiach cant come from the dead? someone?
i love all misnagdim, im sorry if anyone gets offended by the term snag, its just short for misnagdimthats my point. people who never learned chassidus say that. other rebbes were against certain things in chabad for example voting in israel, satmer is against, so they are against lubavitch and ponovitch and many others. as well as many other examples. only one famous rosh yeshiva, was against everything chabad did and does.
can anyone please reference me one source that says clearly that moshiach can not be from the dead?
litvaks understand moshiach (and judaism) very gashmiusdik. a king will get up – maybe natanyahu – get rid of all the arabs from yerushalayim and eretz yisroel, build the bais hamikdash, bring all yidden to israel and they will learn gemara. chassidus explains much deeper, what a king really is, the giluy elokus that will be then, what a bais hamikdash is bepnimius, etc
@ yankel berel , and how do you define a apikores? look in gemarah, 2) so i can decide who is an apikores, cuz i heard lashon hara about him?
i think every chabadsker loves rav shach and all misnagdim. that dosent mean i need to follow him, or accept was he said, or think he was a tzadik (al pi tanya, obviously him and every other jew is a tzadim – veamach kulom tzadikim)
@ avira – so? ok the rebbe printed on the parsha, the rebbe is entitled to do different. (btw the rebbe asked his father in law the frierdiker rebbe why he dosent speak ideas in niglah, and he said its not his mission in the world, so apparently the rebbe wanted to do it this way even though he could have printed on rambam and shas and maybe attracted more litvaks (i doubt it, cuz i don’t believe thats the issue misnagdim have). there is a maase the alter rebbe said if he would have taken out certain world of tanya he would have another 100,000 chasidim, but chassidus demands emes.
im just saying that anyone honest to looks into the rebbe’s torah will see. (the rebbe is the only gadol that thousends of hours of his life is on video and audio, and it cant be denied his greatness.
the baba sali wrote to the rebbe the following (you can see it in non chabad sources)
לכבוד קודש הקודשים, עמוד העולם, אור ישראל ותורתו, שלא קם כמותו, שר התורה והוראה, אהוב בשמים ובארץ, מורנו ורבינו הרב מנחם מענדל מליובאוויטש, הנני עבדך הקטן ישראל,
עליתי ממרוקו לארץ ישראל, ואנשים כאן לא נתנוני השב רוחי, באים אלי בכל שעות היום והלילה, ונבצר ממני לעבוד את ה’ כאשר היתה באומנה עימי, ימים ולילות שלא ביטלתי מן התורה רגע אחד.
ועתה נפשי בשאלתי אם אוכל לבוא אליך לארצות הברית לגור על ידך בקרבת מקום, ואסתר מעיני כל איש.
קיבלתי עלי שמה שיורני מורנו הרב אעשה, כיון שהוא עמד העולם, וכך הכריזו עליו בשמים”.
and if there is no misnagdim today, great, that’s what the rebbe said, baruch hashemso the chofetz chayim promoted ahavas yisroel and being carefull about lashon hara. we should all be more carefull in that. yes chabad believes that hashem created the world to have a dirah bitachtonim, which we accomplish by every mitzvah we do, it will be completed when moshiach comes – see tanya perekim 36-37. actually this idea is the most in line with doing mitzvos only to fullfill the ratzon of hashem. too deep to explain. learn hemshach yom tov shel rosh hashana 5666 to understand at length (close to 1 thousend pages) or at least the first 100 pages or so to get an idea. one point, all the other reasons it says in gemara, medrash, zohar, are all reasons that are intellectual, נתאוה הקב”ה להיות לו דירה בתחתונים is only because hashem was נתאוה. there is no reason why hashem desires this. and no gain either to hashem or us. only hashem desires.
there is a place in torah it says its a mitzvah to hate someone – someone who sees his freind do an avaira, now in tanya perek 32, the alter rebbe explains a bit certain conditions for this, and says its also a mitzvah to love him.
sinas chinam means to hate someone for any other “valid” reason besides if you yourself saw him do the avaira etc with all the conditionsits funny, if the alter rebbe didm’t write the shulchan aruch, the misnagdim probobly would have said today that he wasn”t a talmid chacham, like some might say about the other chabad rebbe’s. the rogotchover gaon once spoke about the rebbe maharash that he was a great gaon, someone asked him how does he know being that he didn’t speak or print much niglah? the rogetchover answered that he can see from his maamarim chassidus. maybe others should follow his example, look at a maamer of the rebbe or previous chabad rabbaim, although its not a pilpul on a tosfos, but in one sefer maamarim is quoted from all over shas, rishonim, achronim. all medrashim, tons of sifrai kabala etc. thousends of m”m, seems like some are just blind. i dont understand how some can say such stupid things that about the rebbes.
somehow every chabad topic turns to moshiach.
b”h chabad taught the world to think about moshiach, i hope one day soon chabad’s love for every jew and acceptance, non judging of every jew will spread to the rest of the world, and we will great moshiach very soon.@yserbius: A very very Chareidi Rebbi? sounds like a person speaking lashon hara, apikorsos – the gemara says a apikores is someone who embarases a talmid chacham -, causing sinas chinam which the whole told was given to make shalom in the world. whats charidi about him?
square root: If mashiach-from-the-dead really is possible, then why did NOBODY in Chabad / Lubavich believe in mashiach-from-the-dead when Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson was still alive and healthy?
actually before 3 tamuz many litvakts had that claim that moshiach cant be someone alive today cuz of the yeridas hadoros, moshiach must be from the dead. look in yated from those years, or Wikipedia.
but ok so you have a good question? now what? anyway before Lubavitch said the rebbe is moshiach, the world didn’t speak much about itlearn kuntres Shmoi Shel Moshiach. The Kuntres provides an in-depth analysis, into the topic of Moshiach from the maisim, as discussed by Chazal.