sechel83

from the chazon ish (who’s yartzeit is today) on how to treat todays kofrim r”l
חזון איש יורה דעה סימן ב אות טז
ונראה דאין דין מורידין אלא בזמן שהשגחתו יתברך גלויה כמו בזמן שהיו נסים מצויים ומשמש בת קול, וצדיקי הדור תחת השגחה
פרטית הנראית לעין כל, והכופרין אז הוא בנליזות מיוחדת בהטיית היצר לתאוות והפקרות, ואז היה ביעור רשעים גדרו של עולם
שהכל ידעו כי הדחת הדור מביא פורעניות לעולם ומביא דבר וחרב ורעב בעולם. אבל בזמן ההעלם שנכרתה האמונה מן דלת העם
אין במעשה הורדה גדר הפרצה אלא הוספת הפרצה שיהיה בעיניהם כמעשה השחתה ואלמות חס ושלום וכיון שכל עצמנו לתקן
אין הדין נוהג בשעה שאין בו תיקון ועלינו להחזירם בעבותות אהבה ולהעמידם בקרן אורה במה שידינו מגעת”.
חזון איש יורה דעה סימן ב סעיף קטן כח
“ובהגהות מיימוניות פרק ו מהלכות דעות כתב דאין רשאין לשנאתו אלא אחר שאינו מקבל תוכחה ובסוף ספר אהבת חסד כתב
בשם הגר”י מולין דמצוה לאהוב את הרשעים מהאי טעמא והביא כן מתשובת מהר”ם לובלין כי אצלנו הוא קדם תוכחה שאין
אנו יודעין להוכיח, ודיינינן להו כאנוסין ולכן אי אפשר לנו לדון בזה לפטור מן היבום, וכן לענין שאר הלכות”.

@ujm and whoever
my point is that rather than blaming others we should all look at ourselves at add in torah and mitzvos,
the gedolim who said reasons for tragedies like the tosfos yom tov, had a point, to teach people the importance of not talking in shul, and they did it out of love like it clearly says in torah.
i dont see how blaming anyone on this forum can be with a point to teach anyone to change their ways.
here’s a wrote from the tzemach tzedek in derech mitzvosecha mitzvas ahavas yisroel וזהו מה דסני לך גילוי זה, לחברך לא תעביד שלא תראה חובותיו ופשעיו, הן במילי דעלמא בדברים שבין אדם לחבירו והן במילי דשמיא, ליש ודבר מה אלא יהי’ האהבה שלך לו גדולה כ”כ עד שתכסה על הפשעים….ולכן זהו כל התורה כולה שע”י התכללות נשמות ישראל אלו …באלו והיו לאחדים ממש כאילו היא קומה א’ לבד עי”ז גורם למעלה ענין נפלא שהוא יסוד ותכלית כל התורה כולה
וכשמתכללים נשמות ישראל והיו לאחדים עי”ז נעשה אחד באחד שה’ ית’ מתייחד עם הישראל והיו לאחדים ואין האדם דלעילא רואה חוב לעצמו ואז הוא עובר על כל פשע של הישראל

i think different people have different ideas what daas torah is, but the fact is that torah tells us how to live our lives 100%, torah is the blueprint for the world so obviously torah has a teaching for everything. now one may wonder that seemingly learning the lomdishe sugyos of shas dont direct him in his marriage dor example, but learning agadah and medrash, kabalah and chassidus will give him a clear picture on every detail of his life. because not everyone can be baki in kol hatorah kulah, torah says make for yourself a rav.

וַיִּבֶן שָׁם מִזְבֵּחַ לַה’: (בראשית יג:יח)
He built an altar to G‑d. Genesis 13:18
The three altars that Abraham built express the three levels through which we can ascend in our relationship with G‑d. Abraham built his first altar to thank G‑d for the promise of sustenance, children, and a land in which they could live. This corresponds to observing G‑d’s commandments, which gives life to the soul and sustains its connection to the body.

Abraham built his second altar to acknowledge the Divine gift of repentance. This altar expresses how we deepen our relationship with G‑d in order to restore it after having sinned.

Abraham built his third altar purely for the sake of glorifying G‑d. This altar expresses our ability to abandon our sense of independent selfhood and fuse with Him. All reality will fully attain this level of Divine consciousness only in the Messianic Era, but our awareness of this fact fuels our yearning for the Messianic Era, and G‑d will hasten its arrival commensurate with our yearning for it.1

@qwerty the rebbe has thousends of sichos. there are almost 200 volumes printed of the sichos he said. you are right he said many many times that ALL jews will be redeemed. in his printed sichos there are sources for everything. check there. anyway in 1943 ר’ דוד שטוקהאמער sent a letter to the rebbe with the following question: שמעתי אומרים אשר, ע”פ המבואר בדא”ח, כל אחד מישראל, יהי’ מי שיהי’, ואפילו רשע גמור כל ימיו, ר”ל, יש לו תקוה. וסוף סוף, אם ברצונו או על ידי כפי’ מלמעלה, בחייו או לאחר מותו, מעלין אותו משערי הטומאה אשר נשקע בהם, מעבירין אותו דרך כמה ענינים של טהרה וזיכוך, עד אשר גם הוא דבק ומתאחד בשרשו ומקורו אוא”ס ב”ה.
ולכאורה תמוהה שמועה זו ביותר, וכמה סתירות ע”ז מן הכתוב וממרז”ל.
the rebbe responded with a 13 page letter (printed in igros kodesh vol 1 letter #85) going thru all the gemaras and other sources and explaining them
(in those days people had the decency to ask if they had a question rather than attack, as the rebbe was knows by all to be one of the greatest gedolim alive. for example rav hutner wondered about the rebbe’s idea to put tefillin on jews, so he wrote to the rebbe to explain some questions he had about it (find it in מנחם משיב נפשי) (even R shach sent someone to ask a question to the rebbe about something in kabala because he didn’t know, and knew the rebbe would know – i thing yeshiva wold wrote an article about it)

oh so your saying when you have 2 opinions in gemara and someone quotes one he’s regecting a gemara? a kofer?
g-d does not hate jews. its a pusuk, your regecting a pusuk?? ahavti eschem amar hashem, viohev es yaakov!!!

@qwerty613
im not accusing you of speaking lashon hara on what you just said, im just bringing a point that you and some accuse some chabad of avoda zara, or kefira,
which if you speak lashon hara you are worse ולשון הרע כנגד כולם. ועוד אמרו חכמים כל המספר בלשון הרע כאילו כופר בעיקר
and anyone who talks bad against the rebbe or chabad or any other jew is speaking lashon hara.
your arguments are absurd, based on one statement that you heard, you reject the rebbes statement that you didint bother looking at the sorce, and you say the rebbe has no justification. i brought you arizal, מדרש תל תלפיאות, עמק המלך, ramban who say that every jew will have a chelek in techiyas hamasim. go learn.
about your attack on the rebbe for talking about the immanent arrival of moshiach, why dont you attack eliyanu havavi he told reb yehoshua ben levi that moshiach is coming today (the day he asked him) (senhedrin perek chelek) many gedolim gave kitzim for moshiach, go learn! (the rebbe did not give a ketz)
one קץ was תרח, the rebbe maharash asked the tzemach tzedek what happened, why didn’t moshiach come, and he answered that likutai torah was printed, – meaning thru likutai torah one can see g-dliness which is the revelation of moshiach. the frierdiker rebbe said the same for the קץ of תרסו and תרעב, thrue learning these and contemplating on them, one can actually have the revelation of moshiach, (see the sichos for more explanation, and start learning chassidus and recognising g-dliness, actually todays tanya – igeres 26 talks about this)
so the rebbe brought this revelation down to the physical world, its availible for everyone to learn, its explained for anyone on any level, there are shiurim availible in any place in the world thru internet, so thats moshiach, its availible to anyone who wants.
but in the above story the rebbe maharash answered that we want it in actuality. which moshiach told the baal shem tov will happen when everyone actually learns chassidus in a way of understanding in depth. (רעיא מהימנא also says this – tanya ibid.) we hope it will come sooner, achishna, but thats the way al pi teva. (this is my our opinion)

here is the gemara is senhedrin as well as other sources. yes evert jew is a peice of g-d. no diference between jews. 100% correct. basics of chassidus, see tanya chapter 2. the essence of every jew is a peice of g-d. there is one g-d not made up of parts ch”v, achdus hashem 101. the only differences is jews it in how much his neshama is revealved. the essence of moshiach is the revelation of achdus hashem and every jews neshama will be revealed 100%.
בסנה’ (קד, ב) דורשי רשומות היו אומרים כולן (אפילו ירבעם וחבריו) באים לעוה”ב
בירושלמי (כלאים פ״ט ה׳׳ג) דאפילו ירבעם
וחבריו שמנו באותן שאין לחם חלק לעוה״ב, הנה ע״י אשר – שנים
רבות אחרי מיתתן – נשרף גופן נעשית בה ם מדת הדין ובצירוף זכו ת
הארץ יזכו ל ת חי ”.
ובמדרש שמואל ריש מס’ אבות בפי’ משנת כל ישראל כתב וז”ל: עולם הבא הנזכר כאן הוא עולם התחי’ ולא ישא אלקים את נפש הרשע עד כי ברוב הימים ימצאנה מטוהרה ואז נגנזת במחיצת הצדיקים כו’ וכן ע”ז הדרך לכל הנשמות עד שיתוקנו כולם כו’ וז”ש הכתוב ועמך כולם צדיקים כלומר בהכרח יהיו כולם צדיקים לפי שהוא ית’ חשב מחשבות לבלתי ידח ממנו נדח, עכ”ל.
עמק המלך (בתחלתו ש’ תקוני התשובה ספ”ג) וז”ל: ועתה בנים שמעו לי יראת ד’ אלמדכם ואהבתו הק’ עמנו בני א-ל חי, למה לו כולי האי לטרוח עצמו ברשעים האלו המכעיסים אותו בכל עת ובכל רגע, ב’ תשובות בדבר התשובה הא’ כו’ אע”פ שהם רשעים גמורים כו’ ניצוצי קדושה בהם כו’ שהם נצר מטעי כו’ והיא חלק אלקה היא נצחי כו’ והנשמות הם רושם אור עצמותו וכל (אולי צ”ל “דכל”) הנופח מעצמותו הוא נופח כו’ ועוד טעם שני מעשה ידי להתפאר כו’ הק’ הוא ומעשה ידיו חיים וקיימים לעד ולעולמי עולמים ואי אפשר שתתבטל כו’
ויעוין ג”כ ברמב”ן בש’ הגמול (הובאו דבריו לקמן) שכתב: הנפש שהיא עליונה אי אפשר שתהי’ בטלה ואובדת כו’.

@qwerty. on a different thread i quoted more. its all in igros kodesh vol 1 letter #85
bottom line every jew is a jew no matter what. see gemara kidushin 36a

בשו”ת הרשב”א [א, קצ”ד] דן אם מומר לעכו”ם מטמא באוהל למ”ד קברי עכו”ם אינו מטמא באוהל, או שדינו כישראל שמטמא באוהל. וכתב שהלכה כרבי מאיר שבין ובין כך קרוין בנים, ולכן אף מומר לעכו”ם הרי הוא בכלל אדם כי ימות באהל שקברו מטמא באוהל.

see the gra in sh”u on this halacha. see maharal also on the gemara

וכתורת הבעש”ט שאהבת הקב”ה
לכאו”א מישראל היא גדולה יותר
מאהבת הורים זקנים לבנם יחידם שנולד
להם לעת זקנתם – אינו סובל דיבורים
שהם היפך שבח בניו, ולא עוד אלא
שהדיבור היפך שבח בניו פוגע בו (בהקב”ה) כביכול
כמ”ש ברור ומפורש הנוגע בכם נוגע בבת עינו

there is nothing wrong with pointing to someone and saying he is moshiach, i beleive the rebbe was the moshiach in the generation when he was alive (many rabbanim/ gedolim beleived the same edited)
rabbi yitzckok breitowitz of aish hatorah says a story that people came to rabbi moshe feinstein and reported that in lubavitch they are saying the rebbe is moshiach, and reb moshe answered “so? whats the problem? (there is a video of him saying the story on youtube)
im saying that, the rebbe was clearly a person fit to be moshiach, since 1994, no one ever pointed to someone as moshiach because no one fits the description as the rebbe did.
there were very few rabbonim who opposed pointing to the rebbe being moshiach, there are botul bielef (in a 1000) to the rest of rabbonim. and they were from the litvish/ misnagdim who dont beleive in the baal shem tov

i believe there is someone alive today who is fit to be moshiach, based on what i learned about moshiach in chassidus, i dont have any candidate, no one alive that i know of comes close to such a character. so either there is someone who i dont know of, or there is someone who i heard of, and he hides his real qualities (cant think of a better word). i guess if moshiach will be from those alive today, he looks something like the rebbe or will look like that when he redeems us (obviously looks means his neshama, hashkafa, tzidkus etc) see keser shem tov first letter.
but moshiach can still be the rebbe just like moshiach was always able to be from the dead.

no lubavitchers were talking about if moshiach can be from the dead before gimel tamuz, it wasn’t relevant, actually i heard the oppisite that the misnagdim said about chabad “how can you say someone alive today will be moshiach, and if you do your’re reseach, youll find that when chabad said openly that the rebbe is moshiach, when he was alive, r’ shach said they are kofrim.
anyway why do these misnagdim care what we think, go learn gemerah! get a life. stop focusing on others “problems” especially if youre claims against it are really am haaratzusdik and stupid (if not kfira – for saying moshiach cant be from the dead against a clear gemara)

this argument of spending time on chassidus, actually chabad finishes rambam – the halachos of kol hatorah kulah every year, the alter rebbe speaks about this is sh”u, (unlike litvaks who spends most of the day on “lumdus” and maybe finish shas at age 25 or 30, and never learn the rest of kol hatorah kulah. so……
(and as mentioned before chassidus is a explanation of medrash like
the medrash that hashem created the world because he wanted a dirah bitachtonim for example, or leolem hashem divarcha nitzav bashamayim etc, so if you have a issue spending time of chassidus, you should also have an issue learning gemarah in depth before you finish kol hatorah kulah)
as mentioned, people with these complaints never learned chassidus, if they said they did, usually they mean they read thru tanya if your lukky. its like someone who read a few mesechtos of gemarah from artscroll, and thinks he knows gemarah like a rav or rosh yeshiva who spent 20 yrs learning gemara,
chassidus is very deap, and there are currently probobly over 150 seforim of chassidus printed from the chabad rabaim, someone who didn’t learn the maamarim of the rebbe rashab, simply does not understand chassidus, hes like learning chumash or gemara without rashi.
torah or, likutai torah, these seforim need the rebbe rashabs maamarim, (the alter rebbe said these maamarim for chassidim who knew kisvai ari zal)
the rebbe explains alot of conceps of chassidus in likutai sichos vol 1-4 for those honestly interested in learning chassidus (btw the frierdiker rebbe said that the rebbe knew 300 sifrai kabala)

שטייענדיק אין דעם יום סגולה פון ערב ראש השנה ה’תשנ”ב, הי’ תהא שנת נפלאות בכל — וואָס ער איז אויך דער יום הולדת פון דעם צמח­צדק — ובסיום וחותם פון חודש אלול ר”ת “אני לדודי ודודי לי”86, מיט די אַלע פינף ראשי תיבות פון אלול כנגד די ג’ קוים ועמודים פון תורה עבודה וגמילות חסדים, און תשובה וגאולה87 — איז אַ זיכערע זאַך אַז שטייענדיק אין אַ מצב פון “ודודי לי” בענטשט דער אויבערשטער יעדער איד און אַלע אידן נאָך אין חודש אלול מיט “בכל מכל כל”, “מידו המלאה הפתוחה הקדושה והרחבה”88, סיי ברוחניות און סיי בגשמיות, און סיי שניהם יחד, ביז אין אַן אופן אַז זיי ווערן איין זאַך.

וע”פ פס”ד הטור הנ”ל אַז שוין בערב ראש השנה זיינען אידן “לובשים לבנים ומתעטפים לבנים” — איז מובן אַז נאָך בערב ראש השנה באַקומט מען שוין די התחלה פון אַלע המשכות והשפעות ואורות, ועאכו”כ — אַלע כחות, סיי ….
ברוחניות סיי בגשמיות……

……ובפרט אַז יעדערער וועט זיכער אויסנוצן דעם טאָג אויף מוסיף זיין אין עניני צדקה און אין כמה ענינים טובים, ובמיוחד — אין דעם ענין שהזמן גרמא — יום הולדת פון צמח­צדק — דורך לערנען מתורתו און מקיים זיין הוראותיו.

וכאמור — ביום זה עצמו זאָל קומען די גאולה האמיתית והשלימה ע”י משיח צדקנו, תיכף ומיד ממש..

the previous lubavitcher rebbe said, (not quoting exactly) although there is no measurement, but earlier chassidim said when they leaned a maamer 10-15 times, then contemplated on it 20-30 times, they felt a chayus penimi.
point it chassidus chabad needs to be learned in depth and contemplated many times to see the results.

if anyone wants to understand why chabad says that the rebbe is moshiach, and not previous tzadikim, and wants a makor in rambam igeres techiyas hamasim that moshiach can be from the dead, why some chabad says the rebbe is still alive, and what that means, and more… search “the rebbe shlita melech hamoshiach” on you tube. there is a series of shiurim from a litvak – rabbi yosef gavriel bechhover – on this topic.

b”h i grew up chabad, and beleive the rebbe is moshe rabainu of the generation, and a navi, etc. etc.
cuz if i grew up in any other community, i would be really confused, not know who to follow,
i encourage all to start learning chassidus and you wont feel the need anymore to fight or hate in order to feel fulfilled in life, you’ll live for something higher.
im not saying its 123 easy, it takes time and effort but its worth it.
finding faults in others is like spoken out against in almost every perek in shas, etc, you say it countless times in davening, etc

In the month of elul , the king – g-d comes to the field and is available to be approached – get closer to him, ask their needs- more than the rest of the year, when more preparation is needed. We say ברכנו אבינו כלנו כאחד, and many similar ideas say in torah that hashem likes when his children are one and love each other, and he blesses them, answers their requests etc .
A simple example: when your child comes to you and asks to buy him a toy, so if he’s coming straight from beeting up his brother and calling him derogatory names, you may not be as exited to fulfill his request vs if he is acting nicely with his brother and helping him out, giving him compliments and also inside really looking at the good in him and loving him
Just reminding everyone of the famous Torah of the baal shem tov (mentioned in בעל שם טוב על התורה פרשת מצורע ובכ”מ) that any bad one sees in another, hes just looking at a miror – himself)
P.s. as i wrote before, i backed off of this stupid argument. So im not answering any attacks. This post i feel is better.

Ill try to make a summary of the past 14 pages:
Disclaimer im just doing this for fun, im not trying to convince anyone, and i think about 99% of rabbonim today consider 99% of chabad totally frum yiden.
Basically some claim its a christian idea to beleive moshiach can come from the dead, the ramban writes about this, and others answered its a gemara, abarbanel, sdai chedem etc, so at most its a machlokes
Some argued that a lot of chabad prays to the rebbe and think he’s g-d, and others simply say its hallucination
Some referred to a sicha where they claim the rebbe says that the previous rebbe was g-d and therefore one can pray to him
Others answered that they simply twisted the words, the rebbe is talking about asking for brachos and tikunim (which when the rebbe said this sicha in 1950, it was not as accepted as now to ask for brachos from a tzadik, some considered this a ממוצע), and the rebbe says that all jews are one with g-d (zahar) and also chassidim and the rebbe are one thing, so it comes out there is no ממוצע because its atzmus umehus how he enclothed himself in a body and brings a zohar and yerushalmi to compare it to, so 1) its not even clear to me that the body the rebbe is referring to is the previous rebbe, in fact the rebbe was speaking after the frierdiker rebbe passed away 2) the rebbe clearly compares it too a zohar and yerushalmi and clearly wants it to be understood the same as you would understand those sources. (the sicha is printed in likutai sichos vol 2 page 509 and on)
They also brought many other sources niglah and kabala that say this same idea,
The anti chabad continued to argue that the niglah and kabbalah seforim dont mean it literally but the rebbe meant it literally, and for that reason one should not learn kabala.
Chabad answered: well first why do you assume the rebbe meant it different then all the other seforim? 2) one of the things chassidus came to do was to explain kabala so everyone can learn it (including this idea is explained at length in many places in chassidus), and its not only kabbalah, its also niglah as mentioned, in fast one reading chumash sees the idea of a body terms for hashem which you end up with the same issue to explain. 3) if so, how come almost all the gedolim didn’t talk out against it, the sicha was said in 1950, printed in 1962, and it took decades for (all the big gedolim to pass away) someone (a professor) to come out against it (he did get some endorsement from a few real misnagdishe rabbanim)
The anti chabad say, that none of the gedolim ever heard of this sicha, if they would have, they would have definitely came out against the rebbe. And really many gedolim even who endorsed the rebbe only did it to be more accepted, they wrote things they didn’t mean, but told one person what they really held.
chabad answered: i see how much you hold of your gedolim, such a big problem happening in the world that chabad is openly serving a”z ch”v and bringing more and more jews to do so, and none of the gedolim cared, spoke up? Look in gemerah shabbos about the churban that the gedolim were punished for not speaking up. It also talks there about chanifa, how bad it is, so i would make a machaa for accusing reb moshe of that and also writing sheker.
Sorry if i missed any important issues, i didn’t have so much time to look thru everything, but i think i covered the main points.
I will add that i myself IF i would see anyone referring to the rebbe as g-d or praying to him, i would consider him to be serving a”z, but i to date (living in chabad communities all my life, learning in 770 for yrs, going to many many shluchim) never heard of this idea till i heard it from litvaks

Ok how many circles do you want to go in. The Rebbe quotes a Zohar very simple, some accuse the Rebbe of explaining the Zohar in a way that they consider a”z. To me the Rebbe is very clearly just saying the same thing that it says in Zohar, anyone who says otherwise is motzi shem ra, choshed bichsharim, etc. etc.
The Rebbe never said g-d is inclothed in a body, maybe berger said that.
He never said you can pray to the Rebbe.
Simply never happened. People who can’t read, or maybe have schizophrenia say thats what the Rebbe said.
I was just trying to explain to their schizophreniac mind that they will also run into questioning all the other gedolim according to their hallucination

@5783 smart comment. Rav shach was against learning rambam for this reason, people read it, don’t learn the mekoros,and think they know everything , and can pasken

@qwerty613, that’s exactly my point, that reb Moshe and all the rest of the gedolim didn’t have an issue with the statement because they knew Gemara , Zohar etc, so from 1962 (when it was printed) no one had an issue till some am haaratzim that don’t know the above seforim saw the sicha and think it’s a”z ch”v

@qwerty if you know what rav Moshe would say, why don’t you take his place as a gadol hador. You’re trying to say that rav Moshe being the “unquestioned gadol hador” till he passed away would let such a big movement as chabad start serving a”z and be mikarev thousands and thousands of Jews to this beleife, and he was afraid to speak up? He didn’t know of the sicha? He definitely knew about it, there were misnagdim then also who spoke about it and definitely people brought it to him. And if not well being the gadol hador, it’s definitely his achrayos to know what’s going on in chabad. So my conclusion is that he knew and had no issue (cuz as the Rebbe brings it’s a clear yerushalmi and a Zohar) and later on people like berger who don’t know yerushalmi and Zohar decided it’s kefira. Btw even today who even accepts the anti chabad movement, seems like it’s only some talmidim of rav shach, and even those, it doesn’t seem like they really care because if they thought chabad was a”z, they have a mitzvah to uproot it, I think it’s just politics.

@Qwerty. To reemphasize my question, some claim that there is an issue ch”v with the rebbe’s statement, it was already mentioned that the same statement exists in Gemara, Zohar, rishonim, kabala, kedushas Levi etc.
Some still claim there is a difference,
So my question is that if it’s a”z why were all the gedolim of the privious generation quiet. I would assume reb Moshe would speak out if he thought it was an issue, but we see that he kept encouraging the rebbe’s mivtzoim etc.

What about using this forum on internet, pretty sure all gedolim came out against using internet unless litzorech parnasa, besides for chabad