sechel83

“Being a Torah Jew doesn’t require one to replace rationality with voodoo logic.”
this statement is not what chassidim beleive – the perpose of existence is to turn the yesh to ayin – i have to get rid of the way i think and think the way torah says to think even if it doesn’t make sence to my limited brain
and i think this is not what toras haniglah believes either
דעת בעלי בתים היפך דעת תורה

Qwerty amazing point, now read everything else in context
The gemarah that says only 1 of 500 will be there when moshiach comes, comes after a Mishnah that says every new has a portain in the world to come, the amid before says a person is zoche to olem haha as soon as he answers amen. Etc. learn the sugya
Atzmus in a guf comes be hemshech why one can ask a rebbe for brachos and tikinum – just like the mega shim on the medrash that says Yaakov is G-d

I never wrote that Yaakov avenue is G-d litterly. I wrote you should learn the maamer הקבצו תרסח, after learning that and understanding it, you won’t have complaints on the Rebbe and R shlome cunin. They said the same things as the gemarah.
All you guys do is say well the gemarah is obviously not litterly but cunin means literally as if the rebbe runs the world and not hashem ch”v.
When Ponevitch gets likutai sichos, maybe I’ll get a Avi ezri.
Practically the chabad shul I go to, gets seforim people use, Avi ezri is a Sefer on rambam pilpulim, not pshat, and is a certain style of learning and will not be used by anyone who comes there. (I personally never met a litvak who can say over to me a full piece of Avi ezri. All chabad yeshivos (I saw) have ktzos even though he was a misnaged (maybe even more than R’ shach.) also noda bihuda and others. the rebbe brings in sichos from the Gra, (even though he made a cherem against chassidim and wrote they say a tree is G-d) as well as many other misnagedim.

just a reminder who qwerty is:
does not understand lashon kodesh or yiddish
claims he learns gemara for 7 hrs a day and spends 10s of hrs on each blatt, but i asked him a simple pshat question on the blatt he just learned and was not able to answer

I challenged the Rebbe because he rejected the Gemara which says that there is no longer Nevuah.
the rambam writes in igeres taiman that he has a mesorah from his father nevuah will return (i forgot the exact year but) around the year 5000, a little before.
ruach hakodesh is a level in nevuah see shaar hanevuah

let me ask you a simple question? do you accept everything it says in gemarah? medrashim? zohar?
do you accept rishonim? achronim? till which achron?
another question why or why not do you accpet them?

Basic summery
What ever it says in chazal, rishonim, achronim, and todays gedolim – you understand it the way you want, so you cant bring it as basis for anything
Whatever the rebbe, or any chabad rabbi says , you need to understand it litterly, so even if they quote a gemara, in gemarah its not litteral, and in cunins words its litteral.
I hope i got this correct?

@yankel berel get your eyes checked

qwerty first answer my question in brachos in the other thread – on the gemara you just learned for 10s of hours on this blatt, then ill discuss this gemara with you. it would help if you would read this gemara – the whole page then comment,
here in english:
With regard to the verse: “For I have taken you to Myself: And I will take out one of a city, and two of a family” (Jeremiah 3:14), Reish Lakish says: The meaning of this statement is as it is written, that only individuals will be spared and the rest will be destroyed. Rabbi Yoḥanan said to him: It is not satisfactory to God, their Master, that you said this about them. Rather, the merit of one from the city causes the entire city to benefit, and the merit of two from a family causes the entire family to benefit and be redeemed. Likewise, the Gemara relates that Rav Kahana sat before Rav, and sat and said: The meaning of this statement is as it is written. Rav said to him: It is not satisfactory to God, their Master, that you said this about them. Rather, the merit of one from the city causes the entire city to benefit, and the merit of two from a family causes the entire family to benefit and be redeemed.

also on that gemarathe maharal explains on that gemara of 1/300k that it means from all the jews who lived in all the generations, many died or were killed. so what will be left when moshiach comes will be 1/300k. nothing to do with only some jews being redeemed. so by techiyas hamasim the jews will multiply 300k times. because all the jews from all generations will come back

What makes berger a rabbi.
To me he seems like an idiot who tried to cause sinas chinam
Bh only some modern guys look upto him

@qwerty oh also reish lakish argues with r simai , see the gemarah you quoted, (don’t just take one line out)
This is clearly talking about moshiach
(And your splitting moshiach and olem habah is correct its not the same thing but many times like here its referring to techiyas hamasim after moshiach comes as is clearly seen from the gemarah and as those meforsbim i brought write clearly.
And its harder to be zoche to olem habah than techiyas hamasim, see likutai torah

They clearly write they are referring to עולם התחייה – read their words,
If you cant understand lashon kodesh, how on earth can you think of giving opinions on who is a gadal or not, or anything in yiddishkeit.
Go learn לשון הקודש first ,

qwerty613
To Seichel
Please give me the proofs from the Rabbis you quoted that they reject this Gemara. I don’t read original Hebrew or Yiddish sources.
so you agree your very ignorant finally
they all – ramban, alshich, arizal, emek hamelech and others – say that every jew has a share in the world to come – which they say refers to techiyas hamasim – exactly what you called the rebbe a kofer for rejecting a gemarah

@qwerty sorry i didnt see you wrote brachos 33, ill start a thread. i hope you’ll join.
“I call the Rebbe. a Kofer because he rejected open Gemaras. One such Gemara is Sanhedrin 111A in which R Simai said that most Jews won’t be redeemed by Moshiach just as most Jews who left Egypt didn’t enter the land of Canaan. The Rebbe rejected this and said that Moshiach will save every single Jew”
we went thru this gemarah before. if you spent 7 hrs learning that blatt, you would see there are other opinions, is the baal hatanya a kofer ch”v or the ramban? ויסוד לדברים אלו בדרוש רבינו הזקן ד”ה להבין ביאור ענין האבות ה”ה המרכבה (בתורת אור פ’ יתרו) ס”ג-ד, וז”ל: ענין עוה”ב שהוא ג”ע ותחה”מ ומבואר במפרשים1 וברמב”ן בשער הגמול שעיקר השכר עוה”ב הוא בתחה”מ, שמעלת תחה”מ היא יתרה מג”ע העליון. והנה בג”ע יושבין נשמות הצדיקים בלא גופות… ותחה”מ הוא שיעמדו בגופיהם… אפילו פושעי ישראל מלאים מצות כרמון ולכן כל ישראל יש להם חלק לעוה”ב בתחה”מ חוץ מאותם שמנו חכמים. עכ”ל.
what about the emek hamelech עמק המלך (בתחלתו ש’ תקוני התשובה ספ”ג) וז”ל: ועתה בנים שמעו לי יראת ד’ אלמדכם ואהבתו הק’ עמנו בני א-ל חי, למה לו כולי האי לטרוח עצמו ברשעים האלו המכעיסים אותו בכל עת ובכל רגע, ב’ תשובות בדבר התשובה הא’ כו’ אע”פ שהם רשעים גמורים כו’ ניצוצי קדושה בהם כו’ שהם נצר מטעי כו’ והיא חלק אלקה היא נצחי כו’ והנשמות הם רושם אור עצמותו וכל (אולי צ”ל “דכל”) הנופח מעצמותו הוא נופח כו’ ועוד טעם שני מעשה ידי להתפאר כו’ הק’ הוא ומעשה ידיו חיים וקיימים לעד ולעולמי עולמים ואי אפשר שתתבטל כ
medrash shmuel, alshich, rabmabn
ובמדרש שמואל ריש מס’ אבות בפי’ משנת כל ישראל כתב וז”ל: עולם הבא הנזכר כאן הוא עולם התחי’ ולא ישא אלקים את נפש הרשע עד כי ברוב הימים ימצאנה מטוהרה ואז נגנזת במחיצת הצדיקים כו’ וכן ע”ז הדרך לכל הנשמות עד שיתוקנו כולם כו’ וז”ש הכתוב ועמך כולם צדיקים כלומר בהכרח יהיו כולם צדיקים לפי שהוא ית’ חשב מחשבות לבלתי ידח ממנו נדח, עכ”ל.

ועד”ז הוא באלשיך פ’ שמיני.

ויסוד לדברי כהנ”ל הוא בליקוטי הש”ס להאריז”ל מס’ אבות, וז”ל: כל ישראל יש להם חלק לעוה”ב כו’ רק שזה יתקן עצמו בזמן מועט וזה בזמן מרובה אבל סופם הוא להמנות עם הצדיקים ומשום זה שהקב”ה כביכול מטריח את עצמו עם רשעים כאלו לתקנם כו’ ולמה כן בשביל שהם נצר מטעי שהוא נצחיי והם רושם אור עצמותו וכל הנופח מעצמו הוא נופח. עכ”ל.

ויעוין ג”כ ברמב”ן בש’ הגמול (הובאו דבריו לקמן) שכתב: הנפש שהיא עליונה אי אפשר שתהי’ בטלה ואובדת כו’.

@coffee addict. so you take the maharsha’s pshat? that does not mean that you cant say a different pshat, as he mentions himself. so i understand it the way its explained by the rashab. and why cant you find an explanation of the sicha just like you did with the gemara? (to start, the paragraph before, after, footnotes, maamarim i mentioned)

@coffee addics “Do you take all gemaras the way you want without trying to understand it?”
i do, and looked at the mefarshim in the gemarah and medrash, and would encourage anyone who reads the sicha in chelek 2, (or saw it in the yaated neeman) to see the paragraphs before and after, and the footnotes!

@yankel berel “i remember hearing” exactly my point, you “heard” that R’ matisyanu solomon had concerns and made a meeting, therefore you decide the outcome of the meeting! great job, maybe the outcome was to do nothing about it because there is nothing wrong? ever thought of that option? especially cuz they didn’t end up doing anything, no kol korahs etc, which i’m sure they would have done if they felt it needed

@philosopher
what about the book “By the Hand of Hashem” Rabbi Yaakov Friedrich (Author)
you should burn the book, the rambam writes in hilchos teshuvah
Five individuals are described as Minim: …c) one who accepts that there is one Master [of the world], but maintains that He has a body or form;

“A] none of them said anything about themselves, always about their rebbeim with no implication about themselves”
אמר ריש לקיש ויקרא לו אל אלהי ישראל, אמר אתה אלוה בעליונים ואני אלוה בתחתונים.
“He established there an altar, and called it [vayikra lo] El” – Reish Lakish said: “And called it El, God of Israel” – he said: ‘You are God of the heavenly, and I am the ruler of the earthly.’
Bereshit Rabbah
79
Etz Yosef on Bereishit Rabbah 79:8:1
אר”ל ויקרא לו כו’ פירושו שיעקב קרא לעצמו אל (יפ”ת ונזה”ק) וע”ש:
Rashi
נוטל שררה לעצמך. שקרא עצמו אל:

and here is the gemara in megillah 18a
(all the litvaks should know this gemara “cuz they learn much more gemara than us”
And Rabbi Aḥa further said that Rabbi Elazar said: From where is it derived that the Holy One, Blessed be He, called Jacob El, meaning God? As it is stated: “And he erected there an altar, and he called it El, God of Israel” (Genesis 33:20). It is also possible to translate this as: And He, i.e., the God of Israel, called him, Jacob, El. Indeed, it must be understood this way, as if it enters your mind to say that the verse should be understood as saying that Jacob called the altar El, it should have specified the subject of the verb and written: And Jacob called it El. But since the verse is not written this way, the verse must be understood as follows: He called Jacob El; and who called him El? The God of Israel.

shlomo cunin was simply saying the same thing as a gemarah and medrash, whoever is honest knows that just like you dont attack the medrash or gemara for saying such a statement, rather look in the mefarshim so too dont attack r’ shlomo cunin, (a much bigger tzadik then all your rav, and rosh yeshiva)
if you want to understand the statement, for the 4th time learn the maamer hibabtzu 5668, this sefer is learned by almost every lubavitcher (in yeshiva) so we can speak in our language, just like when we talk to eachother we say or hakalul biatzmuso, and dont need to give a 9 hour class what it means like i would need to do if i wanted a non lubavitcher to understand what im talking about

qwerty you still never told me what daf, so i take it you dont learn anything as i thought

@qwerty you still didnt tell me which daf? i want to discuss the sugya with you.

“As for your Midrash., I agree with it. My name is Yaakov and so you’ve convinced me that I’m god who created worlds. But seriously if you think that Midrashim must all be accepted literally then you obviously believe that Adam had relations with every creature in the universe on the day he was created.”
Congratulations you’re now officially a Christian since you believe in the Trinity, Hashem, Yaakov Avinu and Oso Harebbe.

so basicelly youre saying 1) dont accept it litterly, ok so why do you take the rebbe’s statement and cunins statement THE SAME words litterly??
espessially as ive mentioned the rebbe explains in the haara what he means by comparing it to a yerushalmi and zohar. and at greater length see the maamer hikubtzu 5668 (in hemshach 5666)

so you dont beleive the medrash about adam? how do you explain it?

“My point is that the vast majority of non-Chabad Rabbonim hold that there’s something wrong with believing that a dead man can be Moshiach. You can learn that yourself if you just do my quick experiment. Or you can continue to sit in ignorance. Your call.”
please bring one open statement from a non chabad rov that there’s something wrong with believing that a dead man can be Moshiach, and one who says its kefira will be better.

@qwerty sorry to call you a liar, but you dont seem learned at all to me. and from your posts its a bunch of he said, he said, no logic. i would like to discuss the gemara youre learning on a different thread with you

@always i dont have the book infront of me but he quotes the kriah vihakdusha with the exact reference, changes it, and writes that some misnagdim called it kefira, typicall misnaged move, just like this thread and the yaated naaman.

anyone looked up the medrash, gemarah and zohar that calls Yaakov Avinu G-D? anyone have an issue?

@qwerty youre such a lier, you dont learn gemarah for 7 hours a day, its not possible for a person who learns 7 hrs a day to write such kefira and non sence
“To the group
Do any Lubavitchers still keep my the 9 days? I think that the Rebbe encouraged Siyumim so that his Chasidim would imagine themselves as having already been redeemed. BTW how many of those Siyumim are Halachially valid?”
PSA chabad does not eat meat or drink wine by the siyum!!!

@qwerty reb moshe did not only shake hands with the rebbe, he openly wrote letters encouraging everything the rebbe did. these letters are available online,
ובדבר ענין נרות שבת לנערות, שהאדמו”ר מליובאוויטש שליט”א עוסק להנהיג בישראל, שאיזה אינשי אמרו שאני מנגד לענין זה. הנה מעולם לא שמעו ממני דבר כזה, בפרט שגם היו הרבה בשנים הקודמות שנהגו כן ברבים. ואם הרבי סובר שהוא ענין גדול לקרב בזה לתורה ולשמירת שבת, מי יכול לומר שאינו כן. ויצליחהו השי”ת בכוונתו לקדש שם שמים, וברצונו להרבות שומרי תורה ושומרי שבת בישראל”.
“בקשר עם מצב בריאותו של הגאון הצדיק האדמו”ר מליובאוויטש שליט”א, אשר שם לילות כימים בהרבצת התורה להחזקת היהדות, ובקירוב לבבות אחינו בני ישראל לאביהם שבשמים. הנני פונה בזה אל כבוד הרבנים שליט”א די בכל אתר ואתר, לדבר בבתי כנסיות ובבתי מדרשות, לעורר את אנשי קהילתם על דבר המבצעים הידועים של האדמו”ר מליובאוויטש לזכות את אחינו בני ישראל במצות תפילין מזוזה נרות שבת וכו’.. הרי בוודאי שכל פעולה במבצעים הנ”ל תחזק את בריאותו”.
he also took part in the siyum harambam (which r’ shach attacked) and encouraged the lag beomer parades (after r’ shach and the steipler signed against it)
all these you can find hand written letters or signitures from him
you guys are making all non sence
all the gedolim supported the rebbe and held of his as the gadal hador and many held he was moshiach (see i.e. rav aharon solovaitchiks letter in the jewish press, see rav britewitz video where he says that reb moshe saw it as a possibility that the rebbe is moshiach)

@qwerty you mean this ?Chabad resembles Judaism in that you keep Jewish rituals. Chabad resembles Christianity because your focus is on a dead Jew rather than a Living God. Look how you twist yourself like a pretzel to try to convince yourself tand others that Rabbis outside of Chabad think that the Rebbe is Moshiach. I’ll quote one of my Rabbeinu who never criticizes Chabad or anyone because he’s a Talmid of Rav Pam. “The belief that the Rebbe is Moshiach is not part of normative Judaism.” As far your statement that distinguished Rabbis say that the Rebbe is Moshiach. There are Rabbis who will say that Moshiach can come from the dead, although the Chofetz Chaim paskened otherwise. However those Rabbis have never said the Rebbe is the dead person that the Gemara is referring to.

bologna you

“chabad is closer to Christianity than Judaism”, i love this statement, it really brings out what chabad is, other jews are human doings – just do dry halachos, Christians lihavdil focus ONLY on spirituality, chabad puts an emphasis on both, so when you compare chabad to dry litvaks or Christians one can say such a stupid statement.

@qwerty these rabbonim are clearly not reffering to the sicha, because otherwise they would say the whole chabad are minim r”l, they say clearly those who beleive the rebbe is g-d down here (r”l) which are a select few – according to them.
listen again every single rav he speaks to mentions that there is nothing wrong with those who say the rebbe is moshiach
@lemayse: he has great rabbanim speaking on his podcast i.e. rav moshe shternbach, rav dovid cohen, rav hershal shachter and much more. ok so r’ gershen ribner argues,

Lemayse. Listen to his podcast number 102. No need to debate