Sechel HaYashar

@ChabadShlucha,
“Until then, we can just have a meayn. Hope your mivtzoim went well:)”
For the same price, the Rebbe says that the Neviim are Moshiach, because he says it’s also a meayn. (Two or three lines before).

“sense of shock that you wouldn’t know something I thought was famous, or that a chossid could express himself in such a manner. ”

When did I express myself in a manner unbecoming for a Chossid? Other than perhaps calling someone here a fine specimen of a misnaged, and for that, I do apologise.

“We shouldn’t shy away from learning any sicha or any letter or try to twist it into what we think would make sense.”
Indeed. I can’t agree more. Please stop twisting the Rebbes holy words.

“Either way it’s actually a sign of high regard,”
Thank you. I hold you in high regard too, and your level of learning is Lshem Ulesiferes for Lubavitch.
I respect your opinion, even though I vehemently disagree with it, and I do think that you (and other Lubavitchers on this forum) should think long and hard about the potential damage you can be doing to our reputation, and the Rebbes koved. I have no hard feelings to you, as I know very well where this comes from, but (even leshitoseich) there’s a time and a place for everything. A gute Voch, and we should be zoche to have achdus in Klal Yisroel, mutual respect for one another, regardless of his or her personal opinions.

@mdd1,
In Chabad we learn the same Torah as you. We learn Gemara too. I don’t know who told you that we “only learn Tanya”
Secondly, please tell me, can I learn Chumash and Tanya without saying Birkas HaTorah???

@ChabadShlucha,
Also, if the Rebbe really wanted to tell me that he’s Moshiach, why would he write that it’s a “meayn” of Toroso Shel Moshiach? He would have said that it’s Toroso Shel Moshiach.

@ChabadShlucha,
I looked it up now just before I leave on Mivtzoim, and as I thought I doesn’t say that Moshiach wrote Likkutei Sichos. It says that learning the Torah of the Nossi Hador (his maamarim and Sichos) will help bring Moshiach. (Among many other parts of Torah listed there. Do you really think that so many Lubavitchers would ignore the words of the Rebbe or don’t know any Sichos?
Rather, we prefer not to take them out of context.

@RSO,
“I asked for a case where this did not involve a public relations coup, as was the case with the son of an Israeli rebbe.”
Very well. There’s a very well known and very large family or Lubavitchers, I won’t name them here, but anyone intimately familiar with Chabad will know whom I referring to. They’re spread out over Canada and American, and have never changed their Levush at all, at the Rebbes request. (Incidentally, their father/ grandfather wrote Rav Moshe Feinsteins Rabbeinu Tams tefilin.)

Additionally, in the late 70’s and early 80’s there was a group of Satmer Chassidim who became Lubavitch. (Together with their Rosh Yeshiva) they too didn’t change their Levush.

Now, you need to differentiate between Minhag and Halachic Shita. Levush is (at least in Chabad) considered a Minhag, and changing it is discouraged. Tefilin on the other hand, and how they’re wrapped and their size is Halachic Shita. So if someone chooses to become a Chabad Chossid, he would want to keep the Piskei Dinim of our Poskim, namely the Shulchan Aruch Harav and the Tzemach Tzedek, (as well as Halachic rulings of the other Rebbeim).
I don’t see why a sefardi Lubavitcher wouldn’t eat rice on Pesach as it’s an Ashkenazi / Sefardi thing, not specific to Chabad. I’d assume that those who don’t would like to be like everyone else in their community, and I don’t see why you’d have an issue with that.

@Syag,
Hi there, and thanks for your vote of confidence. Now that you consider me a somewhat balanced Lubavitcher, I’d like to ask you some questions:
“accept that many points being presented go against Torah as we know it, and we have an obligation to say so. ”
I’m quite curious to know which of my beliefs go against the Torah, as I do learn the same Torah as you.

“but not one of them has trouble with others being in their own derech. ”
I have no problem with all Yidden being on their own legitimate Derochim and following their respective Rebbeim or Gedolim. I can confidently say that I speak for most Lubavitchers here, and ChabadShlucha as well.

“you can expect no less from us.”
I don’t. Please keep following your Gadol, and defending your Derech. I’ll do the same.

“And lastly, I have to say that all that I have heard in these explainations have done more damage to my view of lubavitch’s authenticity than any yellow flag waving nutcase who lives on my block.”

It’s quite unfortunate that you have this perception of us, based largely on one womans posts. You have to understand that by nature, women are more emotionally/ spiritually inclined, and often don’t explain themselves the same way men do. I don’t mean to be chauvenistic here, I have much respect for ChabadShlucha who is a very learned woman and kept her cool for a very long time when I definitely wouldn’t have. I do think that she didn’t need to say everything she did, and I also think that she’s quite a rational woman and may have come across as having views that she probably doesn’t. She never insinuated that she thinks everyone must be Lubavitcher Chassidim, and I’m sure she’ll confirm so explicitly.

Thanks for your respectfulness Syag, and I truly hope that you’ll take my word for it on what we believe. I, and all Lubavitchers aren’t shy or embarrassed about our beliefs, and I would never mislead people about them.

@RSo,
““Look! He is the son of the ploni rebbe and he became a lubavitcher!” ”
Let’s look at the facts, why resort to conspiracy theories? I think I know why, and this applies to other commentators here as well.
You have a preconceived narrative of exactly what Lubavitch thinks and is about, it might even be based on “something I heard in 770″, no matter.
As soon as you narrative comes crashing down like a pile of bricks in the face of hard evidence to the contrary, then all the conspiracy theories come pouring out, like vomiting with a finger down your throat.
When I posted a Ksav Yad where the Rebbe strongly protests the goings on in 770 by some Chassidim, someone screamed out ” It’s a cover up! They just want to look good!”
When I tell you the Rebbes opinion about changing Minhagim, an even deeper conspiracy forms, “He said it so people will see and point and say, look a Lubavitcher with white socks! And he’s the son of a Rebbe!”

Do you really believe in the Elders of Lubavitch conspiracy foundation?

@Neville,
“but trying to get people to abandon their minhagim and adopt ways that can be considered assur”
You seem to be quite an intelligent person and a knowledgeable one too, so surely then you would have heard of the many Lubavitchers who came from other kraizen who were instructed by the Rebbe not to change their minhagim?
And the countless letters of the Rebbe to people telling them to keep to their original mesora?

@Yid123,
“I am a non chabad bochur who goes to a chabad yeshiva.”
Let’s say that your account is true, ( I do find it hard to believe, because there are very few non Chabad kids in Chabad Yeshivas.) why would your parents have sent you to the wildest most off the wall “Yeshivas” in North America? There exist plenty of fine Chabad Yeshivas here, to name a few, Chicago, New Haven, Los Angeles, Morristown, Baltimore…
The list goes on.
Of the kind of Yeshivas you speak about there are only two on this entire continent, Queens and Cincinnati, and both are quite small. I consider those people to be absolutely crazy and aan embarrassment to the Rebbe, the Frierdiker Rebbe, all the way up to the Baal Shem Tov. If you so want to be in a Chance ad Yeshiva ( I honestly don’t know why a nice Litvishe boy would) then do yourself a favor and head off the any of the Yeshivos I listed above.

@ChabadShlucha,
“the most crazy shlichus positions in rural India etc. Yeah it’s those crazy Meshichists. ”
I’m sure you realize that these people aren’t Shluchim, they’re private people doing their own thing. They do not operate under Merkos L’inyonei Chinuch.
“But good to know an exact source, thanks!”
Likkutei Torah, Matos 82 first column. It’s quite similar to what’s explained in Tanya.

@ChabadShlucha,
“I watched a video of his descendent testifying to the above. That the Gra saw the Alter Rebbe through the keyhole of his door in Vilna, and realized there was so much kedusha there that he would have become a chossid”
Interesting you bring that up. In Lubavitch our version is that the Talmidim of the GR”a didn’t let the Alter Rebbe in, however the descendants of the Gra, (specifically Rav Yoshe Beer Soleveitchik) had a different version, the one you mentioned. Another difference in the versions is who the Alter Rebbe went with. In our version, he went with R Mendel of Vitebsk, in Rav Soleveitchik’s version, he went with the Berditchever. I can’t post links here, so Google “alter Rebbe vilan gaon” should be the second result where you can watch Rav Leibel Schapiro (Rosh Yeshiva and Rob of Chabad in Miami) say it over the way he heard it from Rav Soleveitchik.

@ChabadShlucha,
“he said the author of likutei sichos”
Really? Not only have I never seen this, I’ve never even heard of it. Please share your source.

@ChabadShlucha,
““if you look it up you’ll see what I’m saying, even a woman can understand it:)””
No disrespect meant there, I was referring to what you love to say “noshim daatan kallos hayn”.

As for Bosi Legani, look up the reference the Rebbe adds at the end, and you’ll see what I mean.

@Slonimer,
That’s a question deserving of it’s own thread, but I’ll try give a few points in short. I’m sure @ChabadShlucha will answer too.
1. “What does learning “Chasidus” mean and entail?”
Learning Chassidus means studying the works of Chassidus Rebbeim in general, and what I learn specifically as a Chabad Chossid is Chassidus Chabad. It entails beginning with the Yesodos of Chassidus, usually with a Chavrusa or a sefer with biurim until you can fully understand it yourself. On a practical level, I’d recommend learning the first few Prokim of Tanya, and then learning a few Prokim in the second section of Tanya, Shaar Hayichud Vehoemuna. I’d also recommend reading the Hakdamah.
Another basic sefer of Chassidus Chabad is Kuntres Umaayan,
which is often the first sefer Chassidus learned by young Cha ad bochurim, this you may not need a biur, it’s quite self understand and doesn’t introduce many concepts from Kabbala. As an aside, if you are a Slonimer, you may find a part of the sefer which has some writings of the Frierdiker Rebbe and the Slonimer Rebbe a and R Chaim Brisker (if I’m not mistaken) are mentioned there.

2.”What is Chasidus (does it include seforim from non-Chabad Chasidishe Rebbes/talmidei chachamim) and why would non-Chasidim learn it?”

Chassidus has the a similar tafkid to mussar, to refine a person and make him serve Hashem with an emes. (In very short). To do that, Chassidus and mussar employ very different methods. Chassidus defines a persons neshama, and helps you understand who you really are as a Yid. It helps you understand what a Yids relationship to Hashem is.
A good explanation can be found in Kuntres Inyonoh Shel Toras HaChassidus, also available in English as “On the Essence of Chassidus”.

Much of what Chassidishe Rebbeim wrote is Chassidus (not everything, of course Shulchan Aruch Harav for example isn’t Chassidus) Kedushas Levi from the Berditchever, Noam Elimelech from the Rebbe Reb Elimelech of Lizhensk, Nesivas Sholom from the Slonimer, Sfas Emes from the Gerrer Rebbe, just to name a few. All these are Chassidus, albeit a different style than Chassidus Chabad. (It’s been often said that Sfas Emes is similar to Likkutei Torah from the Baal HaTanya)

3. “How’s it different than non-Chasidish seforim?”
You’ll have to see for yourself:) I think I’ve explained a little above.

4. “As a practical matter, is it widely learnt by non-Chasidim?”
Definitely. I personally know many Litvaks and Chassidim who learn Chabad Chassidus. I know a Toldos Ahroner dayan you delves into Chabad Chassidus. I’m sure wherever you live you can find a group of serious Yungerlait learning Chassidus.
I hope this helps.

@Neville,
I’m not going to respond to such disrespect.

@LitvisherChossid,
“So explain to me because I may be wrong, how is that not feeling superior to others? Was all the meat treif for thousands of years until chabad came along with the wisdom of kosher shechting?”
I honestly don’t know where you get your information. There are many people who davka like to use their own hashgachos, especially for meat. That said, I will eat any Glatt Kosher Mehadrin shechita, provided that the Shochtim are Yarei Shomayim. I’m not alone in this, I know many many such Lubavitchers.

@RsO,
“I have asked and there is no source for the semicho story – I believe not even from the rebbe himself.”
You’re raising an interesting topic. There’s a new book called The Early Years, where this is discussed. If I recall correctly, there’s no hard proof or documentation that the Rebbe received semicha from Rogatchover, but the correspondence definitely did happen, and you can see the letters from both of them in this book. It’s probably available elsewhere as well.

@LitvisherChossid
“Also some question if that letter existed as a coverup”
And vaccines cause autism, Obama was born in Kenya,
Bush/Mossad did 9/11, and man didn’t land on the moon.
It’s all one giant cover-up. Once it was the mythical Elders of Zion, today it’s the Elders of Chabad.

@ChabadShlucha,
Earlier, I referenced a Ksav Yad of the Rebbe. I’d love to upload it, but I don’t think it’s possible. If you look around, you can find it just like I did. I’ll write the exact words the Rebbe wrote, with no changes or explanations.

*אין כל* חיוב *כלל* לחפש מיהו משיח וכו’ אבל *מ”ע מה”ת:* [מצות עשה מן התורה] אהבת *כאו”א* [כל אחד ואחד] מישראל ושלילת המחלוקת וכו’ *בתכלית* – ופשיטא שלא לעשות במזיד הפכו *וד”ל* [ודי למבין].
The parentheses are the Roshei Teivos opened.
An asterisk denotes that the Rebbe underlined that word, sometimes with two lines. The first two words “Ein Kol” are underlined too, it seems that my copy paste and asteriks aren’t coming out perfectly. I don’t know how to write in bold here:)

@LitvisherChossid,
“or rather your husband took over for you completely.”
I take offense on ChabadShluchas behalf. That’s quite an assumption to make. I don’t know how many Chabad women you know well, but from what I’ve seen, many of them are quite knowledgeable in Torah. Chabad women study Chumash with meforshim, some Gemara, Rambam, and Chassidus.

“Do you think he would wave you on?”
I can assure you the Rebbe would be very upset by what goes on today in 770. To quote R Yoel Kahan (a leading Rav in Chabad today, miziknei hachassidim)
“What the Meshichistim do to the Rebbe, even the communists didn’t do”.
Many Chassidim are appalled at what goes on there, some won’t even daven in the downstairs shul. This is why there’s a legal fight over 770, so mishogoyim can be thrown out once and for all.

@ChabadShlucha,
“The other was that on the one hand the neshama is a nivra, but we learn that at it’s core, it’s one with Hashem. I wanted to understand how we experience that…”
Interesting question, bhashgacha protis, last night I was learning a maamar which speaks about this, (ואברהם זקן, מלוקט א’)
Secondly,
“Impress like I said, you may be living in denial? I’m actually quite curious”
This is why I gave my credentials as a bonafide Lubavitcher:)
It’s a good question, and will take a long time to answer, since most of the nuances of it aren’t of relevance to many readers here, and it’ll take a long time to write up, I’ll give you a few references to look up.
1. Alot of what I’m saying comes from R Berel Levin (guy who put together many of the Rebbes sforim, Head Librarian of the Rebbes library, wrote the footnotes to Alter Rebbes S”A )
which he wrote it “Kovetz Moshiach Ugeula”, it’s quite hard to find today, maybe your husband has seen it.
2. In the Bosi Legani 5711, the Rebbe concludes with “Vehu Yigoleinu” (the frierdiker Rebbe), then on the bottom, the Rebbe adds a footnote referencing Bamidbar Rabba, look it up. Also when the Rebbe was asked how this could be, he explained on Yud Gimmel Shvat.
3. Please see Likutei Sichos Lamed Hey, page 206 (vayigash Gimmel) footnote 6, where the Rebbe explains why Dovid Hamelech can’t be Moshiach, even though it says so “vedovid avdi nosi lohem leolom”, though the Gemara says that Moshiach could be min hameisim.
I’m sorry I didn’t take the time to spell out everything, but “Yagayta umatzasa taamin” if you look it up you’ll see what I’m saying, even a woman can understand it:)
Thirdly, I definitely wish and hope the Rebbe will be Moshiach, is it rational? Not at all. Is it probable? No. Could it happen?
The Aibershter can do anything. But the focus needs to be on bringing Moshiach, regardless of who he will or will not be.
Fourth,
“there is a joke within Lubavitch that Moshiach must be a Litvak, because otherwise not all of klal Yisrael will accept him, whereas lubavitchers will be happy to accept whoever it is…”
This was actually said by the Alter Rebbe, as such it has more bearing than a simple joke.

@DaasYochid,
“I’m puzzled by your use of the word “histalkus”. Why does it seem to me that even non meshichist Lubavichers can’t seem to directly acknowledge that the Rebbe passed away?”
I will be the first do acknowledge directly that the Rebbe zy”a did indeed pass away on the third day of Tammuz, 5754 (1994) I’m even named after the Rebbe. I frequent his Tziyun often, in fact I was just there on Sunday. I use the word Histalkus because that’s a respectful loshen, just like we use by the Rashbi. I have no problem saying petira.

@DaasYochid,
“I attended many Chabad camps, and we had many different themes, not all based on Moshiach.

When was this? It wasn’t always this way.”
I’ll put it this way, I’m young enough to be born after the Rebbes histalkus.

@DaasYochid,
“Precisely. All those wonderful things you do should be for the sake of the mitzvah, not to hasten moshiach. Hopefully that will occur too.”
They are done to fulfill our obligation to care for another You, which hastens Moshiachs coming. Do you not believe that an increase in Torah and Mitzvahs is mezarez the Geula?

“The Rambam is referring to belief in Moshiach, not specifically belief that the Rebbe is moshiach.”
Have you understood from my posts that I believe the Rebbe is Moshiach? I think I’ve been pretty clear that it’s not the case.
My point of bringing the Rambam was to stress how important believing and and anticipating Moshiachs coming is, and how it’s not a Lubavitcher novelty.
Also, I’m quite sure the Chofetz Chaim spoke and wrote alot about Moshiach.

@DaasYochid,
Your are truly a fine specimen of a misnaged. I honestly thought they were extinct, but it lives on within you.

“the Chabad girls gave her a puzzled look and asked, “What does that have to do with Moshiach?” ”
That anecdote doesn’t ring true. I attended many Chabad camps, and we had many different themes, not all based on Moshiach. And even if this did happen, is the innocence of a young girl who thinks that everyone else is like her so so terrible?
Secondly:
“but it’s not to the exclusion of everything else in Yiddishkeit the way it seems to be in Chabad.”
In what way does our belief (or as you so derisively call it “obsession”) in Moshiach exclude any part of Yiddishkait?
On the contrary, we strengthen Yiddishkait all over the world, thereby hastening the coming of Moshiach.
How many Yidden keep Shabbos because of our efforts?
How many put on Tefilin?
How many keep Kashrus?
How many children were born בקדושה?
How many hours of Torah were learned?
How many tayere Yiddishe kinder are learning kometz Alef oh?
To suggest that fervent belief in Moshiach excludes any part of Yiddishkait is patently absurd.
And who helps you keep kosher? How much of the food you eat is supervised my Chabad Shluchim serving in “ek velt”
The OU and OK as well as many others heavily rely on our Shluchim.

Thirdly:
“You’re kidding, right? The Rebbe forced all Yidden to follow the Torah? Could have fooled me.”

I didn’t say he did, I clearly used the word argue, ie, for arguments sake. Meaning, that even if the Rebbe did force everyone to keep Torah Umitzvos, that still wouldn’t make him Chezkas Moshiach.
Finally, I’ll conclude with a Rambam:
וכל מי שאינו מאמין בו, או מי שאינו מחכה לביאתו, לא בשאר נביאים בלבד הוא כופר, אלא בתורה ובמשה רבינו.
(Hilchos Melochim Perek 11 Halacha 1)

@ChabadShlucha,
“This we can agree on sechel hayashar, correct?”
We most definitely can agree on that. In fact there’s a Ksav Yad from the Rebbe to a similar effect. I would upload it if I could. The one of
אין שום ענין לזהות את המשיח…
I’ll see if I can find the full loshon.