Sechel HaYashar

@Syag,
“Unless they prescribe to CS’s beliefs and shittos.”

I fail to comprehend why her beliefs are “arguably [is] halachically problematic” .

I challenge you to prove based on a source that you can specify in Shulchan Aruch or Rambam why her beliefs are “Halachically problematic”.

@MoshiachChat,
Sorry, unless you’re a woman, in which case we definitely haven’t.

@ChabadShlucha,
“as my husband would prefer the whole Yeshiva not gossip about his wife’s posts if I give away my location 😉”
I totally get that, as I am a bochur.

“As for my personal position, that’s the house I grew up in and my private personal opinion also based on several igros I have seen. ”
I have no qualms with your personal opinion, as I’ve explained before.

@WinnieThePooh,
Thanks. Finally some rational thinking.

@MoshiachChat,
Stop it! Stop it! Just stop it already!

@Neville,
“We have clearly demonstrated that Chabad’s policy is to overtly try to get people to change their minhagim;”
That would be correct if it’s one’s Minhag not to put on Tefilin, or to eat chazir r”l, or to marry a shiktza, but we have no interest in changing your Minhagim. I don’t know why I’m even responding, your mind seems quite resolved about this based on one reply to a non religious person on Chabad.org which had no Minhag. (Unless not being frum is a Minhag).

@ChabadShlucha,
“I am personally ambivalent over whether the Rebbe must be Moshiach as I definitely see place for both interpretations, but I don’t yet see anyone else who could”
Very well said, and I think that many Lubavitchers would subscribe to that view, it’s quite “moderate” (I hate to use that word, but I want to put it in perspective for others here).

Was this always your view or did it soften throughout this discussion? You don’t have to answer, I understand if you don’t.
(Also, do you still take me seriously even though you now know exactly how old I am? 🙂 )

@benignuman,
“Finally, the Gemara itself lists only 4 people that lived without any aveiros. But according to the interpretation discussed above, wouldn’t there have to be at least one in every generation?”
That has been answered already, but if you want to study it further, look in Maamarim Melukat Aleph, Veavraham zakein.

@Slominer,
“How do you explain why 60%-70% of Lubavitchers nevertheless believe the Rebbe is Moshiach?”

Way too many tough questions for one day:)

If I didn’t make it clear earlier, I think it’s something based on emotion and feeling, it’s a hergesh, not something that is dictated by logic and reason. I think that’s what many Lubavitchers who do believe the Rebbe is Moshiach would answer, but I really can’t speak for them.

“and ones like me.”
*And not ones like me.

@slominer,
“So how do you feel about and explain and personally reconcile with the fact that a large majority of your fellow Lubavitchers believe this very silly belief?”
Firstly, I didn’t say upwards of 70%, I said between 60% to 70%, but anyway, those numbers don’t mean much. They’re just an estimate based on very hard to define beliefs.

Now, my main issue with believing that the Rebbe is Moshiach isn’t due to my thinking “that it’s silly”. I think it’s intellectually dishonest to base that belief on the Rebbes words or writings, (something I gave sources for quite awhile ago here, but didn’t expound on.) That said, as a hergesh pnimi, a real internal belief that’s personal, and not comprised of chanting slogans and waving ridiculous flags, or wearing silly Yarmulkes, I have no problem with it. I don’t think it’s silly, I think it’s an expression of longing for Moshiach and a fervent hope that it will be the Rebbe, whether that makes sense or not. I’m not going to belittle that belief.

I only take issue with the following:
1. People who feel that it’s their mission to convince the entire world of these said beliefs, which as I said is a small segment of Lubavitch in America (very far from the majority).
2. People who believe that the Rebbe is alive Beguf Gashmi, and mock those who visit his Tziyun in Queens.

As I said, I, based on the Rebbes own words (Likkutei Sichos Chelek 35 Vayigash Sicha 3 page 209, footnote 6, I hope all that is accurate, this is off hand) believe that according to the Rebbe, it’s not logical for him to be Moshiach.

@UncleBen
“Sechel; Just curious, if Lubavicher chadorim don’t have limudei chol, where did you get such an excellent vocabulary and writing skills?”
Thanks for the compliment. It’s not unique to me, many Lubavitchers have excellent English language skills, if you really want to know English, it doesn’t have to happen at school. Lots of reading in English will usually have the same effect.

@slominer,
” In your rough estimation, a) what percent of Lubavitchers believe the Rebbe is Moshiach and b) what percent believe the Rebbe isn’t Moshiach? Do you agree with Chabadshlucha that an overwhelming majority of Lubavitchers believe the Rebbe is Moshiach?”
That’s a tough question, and I didn’t answer it until now because Chabad Shlucha already did.
I would say that in my experience in Yeshiva, it’s not something that I’ve really heard discussed. No one says “I believe the Rebbe is Moshiach or I don’t believe” most of the debate is usually about saying Yechi (which I’d say majority of American Lubavitchers don’t) or other such slogans, or debate on the effect that Meshichistim have on tarnishing our image.
If I had to estimate how many Lubavitchers believe wholeheartedly that the Rebbe will for sure be Moshiach, I’d say roughly as high (or low as, depending on your perspective) as 60-70% percent. It’s also quite difficult so define “believe that the Rebbe will be Moshiach” ie, how much do you believe it? Bemunah Sheleima or you think or hope that he will be, but it’s kind of inconsequential. Also as I said, people very rarely talk about such a personal belief. (Unless they’re Meshichist).
I hope this answers your question somewhat.

@ChabadShlucha,
“it appears that sechel may be right and others may just not “get” us. I’d be happy to be proven wrong though:)”
I’d be very happy to be proven wrong, and I’d love to believe that no matter what ones beliefs are (as long as they’re not contrary to the Ikrei HaDas) other Yidden won’t respect them any less. Unfortunately I’ve been right about this time and time again, it’s quite similar to lehavdil in the goyishe world where we see such discord, and hate for other ideological viewpoints. We as Yidden, who have the concept of Ahavas Yisrael, and Shivim Ponim Latorah, (and machlokes sheinah lshem Shomayim) should be above such pettiness.

@ChabadShlucha,
You have completely misunderstood me. As I clarified earlier, I said Noshim Daatan Kallos only in a joking way, because you yourself had used it before. I even added a smiley face:). And I wrote that you will understand it, even though you are fond saying noshim datan kalos.

“you tried to dismiss my comments because I am a woman, without being misogynistic of course (wry smile.)”
I was trying to explain why you might have come across the way they thought you did, and I stand by what I said, and I do not consider myself misogynistic at all.

I am well aware of the Rebbes yachas to women, and I am someone who I think knows the Rebbes shittos quite well.

”
with their Bina yeseira are quick to discern what you think of their intellectual capabilities:)”

I do not think women are of inferior intellectual standing in any way, I was speaking about women’s emotions, which I said were stronger.

“discussing some questions that have come up on this thread with the bochurim shluchim who were coming over on Shabbos, ”

I wonder how many of those bochurim shluchim I know:) which Yeshiva were they in? Also, I’ve discussed different parts of Torah with various Shluchos at their Shabbos tables, and I’m no stranger to a woman’s intellectual prowess. I’m quite taken aback by your portrayal of me as some kind of misogynistic guy who doesn’t know what the Rebbe says about women learning Torah.

“I’m assuming you are in shidduchim or will be starting soon. ”
Not a bad guess:) Closer to the latter.

What do you think that Rav Shteinman Shlita would say if he knew the he’s at the center of a disgusting and disgraceful thread such as this one? Do you think it’s going to bring him a Refueh Sheleima? Rav Shteinman is known to have respect for Chabad, and we in turn, have always had respect for him. (I’ve even learned his Chiddushim in Ayeles HaShachar in a Lubavitcher Yeshiva. (Hey wait.. They don’t learn Torah in Chabad, just Tanya?!) Stop fanning the flames of Pirud Helevovos and machlokes in the name of a Godol B’yisrael who’s lying sick in hospital!!!

@BURNTface,
“Seichel Hayashar, Moshiachat and all the others are spouting things that are based on the above fact: the Rebbe is Moshiach. ”
Have you even read anything I wrote here? Or because it doesn’t fit the narrative that you want to sell everyone you’ll put words in my mouth?!

@RSO,
“Why are lubavitchers always so much on the defensive. ”
Hmm, I wonder.

“My challenge, I suppose it could be called, was to find me someone who was told to keep his mesorah when it would not be so obvious that he was choshuv and/or from the outside, for example, to keep winding tefillin the other way, to keep wearing non-lubavitch tallis/tzitzis.”

I explained in a previous post the difference between Minhag and Halachic Shita. The two examples you bring are in the latter category.

“and they were told to keep their levush because it makes it obvious to anyone who sees them that this choshuve family were attracted to Lubavitch from the outside.”
Nonsense. Part of the Lubavitch conspiracy I mentioned earlier, which believes that any praiseworthy thing the Rebbe or any Lubavitcher did is for ulterior motives. Disgusting!

Also, this family do keep many of their other Minhagim too, such as keeping Shabbos for several hours longer, by taking it in early, or bringing out late.

@Joseph,
“Mainstream Lubavitch and the official Mosdos condemn and reject which beliefs?”
The belief that the Rebbe zy”a is still alive, and will soon be revealed as Moshiach. (Among many of the other things discussed here).

@mdd1,
“Plus, the Rebbe has 39 volumes of chiddushim on sugyos Ha’Shas? I have never heard about it.”
Let’s say he did. In all likelihood you probably still wouldn’t have heard of them. But in reality, the Rebbe has 39 volumes of Likkutei Sichos – which discuss all parts of Torah, from pshat in Chumash, to a kashe on Rashi, to sugyos Al HaShas. There’s also several volumes of Hadronim on Shas (which the Rebbe said when he would make a siyum on a masechta) as well as on Rambam. I invite you into your local Lubavitcher shul to see for yourself, who knows perhaps you’ll even enjoy it, and you’ll definitely be mekayem mitzvas Talmud Torah, which according to all Shittos one isn’t mekayem on the Coffee Room:)

@MoshiachChat,
“Also, ur point does not deal with people who consider the Rambam to be lo zachu.”
I don’t think most people on this thread know what you’re talking about. And, that doesn’t apply to the Halochos of who can be Moshiach, only to the parts of how he will come, where the Rambam says “no man will know until it happens” (I’m quoting by heart, forgive me if the loshon is slightly off). According to your interpretation here of Lo Zochu, even Yoshke could be Moshiach.

@MoshiachChat,
As R’ Yoel Kahan once said, “what the Meshichistim do to the Rebbe even the communists didn’t do”.
Interesting how you claim that really R Yoel is still a secret Meshichist, while most other Meshichistim I know just say that he’s a koifer.

“I’m here to defend that it is a kosher belief for whomever may hold it. ”
If you followed this thread from the beginning (yes all 350 posts…) you’d see that I do defend it as a “kosher belief”, it’s not against any of the Ikrei HaDas. But to tell people that the Rebbe declared himself as Moshiach and all other kinds of narishkaiten, does not advance Hafatzas HaMayonois in anyway. People here don’t want to have anything to do with Lubavitch after reading what you write. And if this really was what Lubavitch stands for then I don’t blame them. But as a devoted Lubavitcher Chossid, I can categorically assure you all that the Rebbe zy”a was against all of this nonsense, and that mainstream Lubavitch and our official Mosdos (Merkos L’inyonei Chinuch, Agudas Chassidei Chabad) condemn and reject these beliefs.

@Ysebius123
“it’s well known that after he had his stroke, people claimed that Rav Schneerson ZT”L was saying all sorts of things, each one more outlandish than the last.”
It’s also well known that the Rebbe wasn’t able to speak after his stroke in 1992.

@2scents,
“This question has been asked before, but I will rephrase it. Is it possible for anyone else other than the Rebbe to be Moshiach?”
I don’t know what answer you’re looking for, but in my opinion, shared by many other Lubavitchers, of course it’s possible for anyone who fits the Rambams descriptions to be Moshiach. It doesn’t have to be the Rebbe.

@MoshiachChat,
“One big name amongst them was Reb Yoel.”
You conveniently ignore the fact that although Reb Yoel can be credited with kind of inventing Meshichistim, he publicly denounced it after Gimmel Tammuz, and is one of the most vocal critics of Meshichistim.

“and I, in which cause I’m going to politely but strongly disagree.”
Do you disagree with the fact (seen quite clearly on this thread) that your ideas (correct or incorrect) are meracheik Yidden from Chassidus? And cause so many to hate Lubavitch? And cause such agmas nefesh to the Rebbe?
You are pouring gasoline on a raging fire with each and every comment you post here. Go learn a sicha, go learn a maamer, open a Gemara. Do something positive. Stop spreading your beliefs here. It does no good. Do you think by you explaining your shittos you’ll convince them? Do you think saying “the Rebbe said so clearly that he’s Moshiach” will make people believe that he is? All you are doing is turning people off Chassidus Chabad. You are fighting with the Rebbe, you are playing with fire!!