Sechel HaYashar

He definitely will not eat it.

@NP,
“You appear to be attempting to deflect the fact that there where Gedolim who came out against the Lubavitcher Rebbe by quoting a Gadol who held of him.”

You named several names. I demonstrated that one was mislead, and two we have proof to the contrary. If someone tells me how to upload images here, I’ll glad upload a letter from Rav Hutner. My point in bringing Rav Vosner was to show that when people say “all the Gedolim” that is absolutely false. And Rav Vosner, who was the Gadol HaDor at least in the Chassidishe velt, would vehemently disagree with much of what’s being said here.

How can there be such a wide chasm between Gedolim, with some showing much veneration for the Rebbe, while others said that Chabad mikvaos are posul, our wine is assur, you shouldn’t be meshadech with us, and our children are Bnei Niddah.

And then you wonder why we still can’t respect Gedolim who said those things. Would you respect a Lubavitcher Rav who said that your wife was a Nidda and your kid is a Ben Niddah?

While we’re talking about different Gedolim, I want to add, that one of the major Poskei Doreinu, the Shevet HaLevi, Harav Hagaon Rav Vosner z”l, was an admirer of the Rebbe and Chassidus Chabad in general, he had a relationship with the Frierdiker Rebbe going back to the 1930’s, and had a Yechidus with the Frierdiker Rebbe several times.

In Sivan of 1976 Harav Vosner had a lengthy (three quarters of an hour) Yechidus with the Rebbe, and the Rebbe personally escorted him out.

During the Shloshim for the Kedoshim of Mumbai, (who’s Yartzait is this week) in a telephone address, Rav Vosner said the following:

“Regarding the shluchei Chabad it is fitting to apply the saying of our Sages in the Midrash Raba: ‘There is none more beloved to Hashem than a shliach who is sent to do a mitzva and is moser nefesh to be successful in his shlichus.’ How fitting these words are to the Chabad shluchim, who are undoubtedly beloved to Hashem for being moser nefesh to spread Judaism and to make the name of heaven beloved all over the world.”

At the Siyum HoRambam in Yerushalayim in 5772, Rav Vosner spoke, and among his remarks said the following:

“This great thing that the Rebbe did, that we unite in the study of Rambam, and by doing so we hasten the coming of Moshiach. The Rambam begins with the laws of faith in the Hilchos Yesodei HaTorah and ends with faith with the Hilchos Melachim. That is the uniqueness of the Rambam’s work that it begins and ends with emuna and it includes all the mitzvos that pertain nowadays and that do not pertain nowadays.”

The Shevet HaLevi would send his seforim to the Rebbe, and the Rebbe would send back comments on his Tshuvos.

After meeting with the Rebbe, Rav Vosner remarked that he was prepared for the Rebbes memory, as it was well known, but he remarked, “ober aza amkus”.

Rav Vosners reputation as a Posek and Tzadik speaks for itself, and his relationship with Chabad speaks for itself.

@NP,
“I’m not aware of any Gedolim who supported his more controversial psokim and teachings.”
Can you please tell us what these controversial psokim are?
And who argued with them?

@Daas,
“but the process arrived at to be a meshichist is so flawed that a meshichist’s judgement cannot be trusted in halachah.”

A good summary of the letter, and he says explicitly that their Shchita is kosher, unlike David Berger would like us all to believe.

@YserBS123,
In my quest to find a place where Rav Belsky “came out against the Lubavitcher Rebbe” (still haven’t found it, and I don’t think I will) I came across the following quote from the posek Harav Heinemann:
“I’m not among those who believe that the Rebbe was Mashiach. But you don’t have to be Mashiach to be a gadol b’Yisrael. ”
– Mishpacha Magazine, May 2008.

@MC,
“Essentially it can be summed up by how the chosom Sofer says in his book of Halacha’s. ”
You make yourself sound like an am haaretz by calling a sefer “Book of Halachas”. The Chasam Sofer didn’t write a book of Halachas. You mean Shu”t Chasam Sofer.

@Kovno,

Apparently Rav Chaim Volozhiner, one of the Gra’s prime Talmidim did pass this mesora down. You have very breite pleitzes to argue with Rav Soleveitchik.

Correction:
“Rav YB Soleveitchik had received in his family, being a descendant of the Gra. ”
The Rav wasn’t a descendant of the Gra, he was a descendant of Rav Chaim Volozhiner, a Talmid of the Gra.
(I’m surprised no one here called me out on that:) )

@NP,
http://www.chabad.org/therebbe/livingtorah/player_cdo/aid/575008/jewish/An-Encounter-with-the-Alter-Rebbe.htm
@mods, please allow, this isn’t copyright.

@NP,
” I said many Gedolim and Rabbonim came out against the Lubavicher Rebbe.”
I want three names of such Gedolim.
1. Rosh Yeshiva
2. A Posek
3. One who stood out as a Tzadik, besides for being a Talmid chochom.

In relation to my remarks about Professor Berger:
“In my mid-teens, I experienced periods of perplexity and inner struggle while reading works of biblical criticism. While I generally resisted arguments for the documentary hypothesis with a comfortable margin of safety, there were moments of deep turmoil. I have a vivid recollection of standing at an outdoor [sabbath service] in camp overwhelmed with doubts and hoping that God would give me the strength to remain an Orthodox Jew. What saved me was a combination of two factors: works that provided reasoned arguments in favor of traditional belief and the knowledge that to embrace the position that the Torah consists of discrete, often contradictory documents was to embrace not merely error but [heresy].”
-From his autobiography published in 1993.
I’ll let all of you decide for yourself if these comments disqualify him from opining on whether or not these beliefs are kfira, and “beyond the pale of orthodoxy”.
(As an aside, when a 50 year old writes an autobiography, it speaks volumes about his character, and specifically his ego.)

@NonPolitical,
“Siting an Agadah to sanction an unprecedented theological shift among Klal Yisroel is unacceptable. ”
You probably mean “Citing.”

@MC,
“Tasha’s koyach! Yoshar Koyach”
I don’t know if this is a typo or what, or you don’t know what Ta”ch stands for (tshuas chen) but Tashas Koach means “a weakening of Koach”. Probably a typo.

@NonPolitical,
In response to your questions:
(Sorry for the lengthy wait)
“The inference from the Bati L’Ganni speech was sufficient for the Brisker Rov to declare that the Lubavitcher Rebbe thought he was Moshiach. Such an inference is clearly not unreasonable.”

I don’t know the source of this story with the Brisker Rov, but have you actually learned the maamar inside?
If you do, like I’ve done countless times, I think you will fail to come across such an inference. I have never seen it. It’s not worth arguing about this point until you have actually studied the maamar inside, in its entirety.

“take personal offense at the statement made by CS that the Vilna Gaon saw the Alter Rebbe of Lubavich through a key hole, realized that if he would meet him he would have become a chossid and ran away. But this is just a symptom of the above stated problem.”

This story is not the mesora we have in Lubavitch of the meeting between the Gra and Baal HaTanya, (as I discussed earlier in this thread) but rather the version that Rav YB Soleveitchik had received in his family, being a descendant of the Gra. Please refer to my previous comments about this.

“The premise that it is legitimate to hold such a belief undermines the very fabric of the Halachic process itself”
We’ve been through this so many times here…
As I asked earlier, which Halacha does this contradict?
Such a belief has basis in the Gemara,
“ורבי יוחנן אמר למשיח מה שמו דבי רבי שילא אמרי שילה שמו שנאמר (בראשית מט, י) עד כי יבא שילה דבי רבי ינאי אמרי ינון שמו שנאמר (תהלים עב, יז) יהי שמו לעולם לפני שמש ינון שמו דבי רבי חנינה אמר חנינה שמו שנאמר (ירמיהו טז, יג) אשר לא אתן לכם חנינה”
(Basis for believing ones Rebbe is Moshiach)

“אמר רב נחמן אי מן חייא הוא כגון אנא שנאמר (ירמיהו ל, כא) והיה אדירו ממנו ומושלו מקרבו יצא אמר רב אי מן חייא הוא כגון רבינו הקדוש אי מן מתיא הוא כגון דניאל איש חמודות”
(Basis for the possibility of Moshiach min Hameisim)
Also, note what Rav Nachman says…
– Sanhedrin 98b.

@NonPolitical,
“Rabbi David Berger contends that they are unfortunately the minority. I’m not an insider so wouldn’t know.”
I actually like a lot of your posts, but this one isn’t in line with your “non political” tag. Mr David Berger is a very political partisan hack, who’s unadulterated hatred for Chassidus in general and Chabad in particular is well known. I refer you to R Dovid Lichtensteins interview with him on “Headlines”. You will also observe there that Berger is not a very big Talmid chochom to say the least.

@RSO,
“Finally someone mentioned above that “nossi hador” is mentioned in Tanya. I just did a BarIlan search for the word nossi and it didn’t come up at all. Where is it in Tanya? I’ll be happy to be told the source.”
Tanya Perek Beis. Exact concept of Nosi HaDor without the name, “Nosi HaDor”.

@NonPolitical,
I definitely am planning on answering, but anything longer than some copy pasting and typing a little takes time. And that’s time that I don’t have. I have a life and a lot to do outside of moonlighting on the Coffee Room:)

@Daas,
“Yes, this is halachically problematic.”
I didn’t ask for your opinion as a Posek, I asked for you to quote a source in Shulchan Aruch or Rambam to back it up.

“Do the meshichists think he is definitely moshiach but not “chezkas moshiach”? How does that work?”

Does the fervent hopeful belief mean that you think he already reached the status of Chezkas Moshiach?
It means that you think he will rise from the meisim, and then accomplish what a Chezkas Moshiach would need to accomplish.
(I’ve already proven that this doesn’t fit with the Rebbes own words several times, but that doesn’t make one a koifer if he chooses to believe so.)

@LitvisherChasid,
“Also seems your fellow lubavitcher told you to hush about those chabad secrets and not share them on this site. So thanks for letting out a chabad secret.”
No secret here, I’ve never done this or observed anyone doing this. As I told that poster, keep your personal hergeishim to yourself.

“I recently saw on their site that some “chabad” chazzan will be singing/chazzening at the lincoln square synagogue. This makes everyone think that he is the only chazzon there and its always chabad on top.”

Fake news. The article said he’s an assistant chazan and the main chazan is Yanky Lemmer. I never thought I’d see the day that I’d be defending collive.com.

@Daas,
“the very logical argument that the Rebbe caused his chassidim to believe that he was moshiach.”
Fair enough. Here goes.
The Rebbe zy”a never shied away from stating his opinion on Halacha or Hashkafa or coming out with various Mitzvah campaigns, no matter how controversial they were.

From the Litvishe opposition to Mihu Yehudi, to the Satmar anger at the Tefilin Campaign, to the derision of his Shittos about the shape of the Luchos or Menorah, the Rebbe never backed down.

Never did the Rebbe say “look, the world doesn’t like the Taharas Hamishpoche Campaign, or Mihu Yehudi is getting too much flak, so let’s just say these things in private”.

Had the Rebbe wanted the world to believe he’s Moshiach, he would have said so in a very public way, with nothing to hide. The Rebbe stood for emes, not chas vesholom two faced deception.

These attacks on the Rebbes integrity are shameful and completely forbidden. (Shulchan Aruch Y”D 243:6-7.)

Some of my posts aren’t coming through. Is it to do with Hebrew?

@Daas,
You certainly seem to insinuate that chas vesholom the Rebbe was a devious, two faced, self aggrandizing person (It’s hard for me to even type those words) who privately mislead his Chassidim while attempting to maintain a good image for the public.

And that I find disgusting.

“Shame on the people who raised you to speak like that.”
“I’ll note also that your response to me, insulting my parents, ”

I don’t know your parents, and I never insinuated that they raised you to speak like that. I honestly have no idea where you picked up such ideas.

@Daas,
Halachically problematic doesn’t mean that your reading of the Rambam is wrong. It means that what you believe is kefira, apikorsus or minus. Not that your wrong. There’s no sin in being wrong. There is a sin of calling thousands of Yidden Yireim Ushleimim kofrim. There is a sin of bizayon Talmidei Chachamim;

עון גדול הוא לבזות תלמידי חכמים או לשנאותן וכל המבזה את החכמים אין לו חלק לעולם הבא והוא בכלל כי דבר ה’ בזה:
מי שהעידו עליו שביזה ת”ח אפי’ בדברים (אפי’ שלא בפניו) בית דין היו מנדין אותו ואין מתירים לו עד שירצה החכם שנדוהו בשבילו ואם ביזה את החכם לאחר מותו בית דין היו מנדין אותו והם מתירים לו משיחזור בתשובה.
– Shulchan Aruch Y”D 243:6,7

@DaasYochid,
“Of course, he was smart enough not to say it explicitly. Yet, he managed to have (almost?) all of his chassidim convinced that he was, and perhaps made some disclaimers in private.”

What a disgusting piece of hyperbole. And bizayon to a true Tzaddik and Manhig of thousands. You don’t have to believe he’s Moshiach or the Nasi HaDor, but a modicum of respect for a Yelud Isha who dedicated himself to Klal Yisroel in a most selfless way. Shame on the people who raised you to speak like that. Shame on you!

Now you wonder why you were dubbed “a fine specimen of a misnaged”?

@MoshiachChat,
“Reb Yoel Kahn, much to Seichal Yashars dismay, is on video saying nothing happened gimmel tammuz. He is here just as before”

I can’t confirm that or deny as I haven’t seen this video. But I can tell you, as everyone in Lubavitch knows, that R Yoel definitely doesn’t believe that today. I doubt he ever did.

@DaasYochid,
“You don’t think it’s halachically problematic to throw all known sources describing moshiach in the garbage based on a purely emotional need to believe your rebbe is moshiach?”

One down.
Who’s next?

I’ve been dormant on the Coffee Room for several months, if not longer.