Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
@RSO,
“I’ve already said that using an image as kedushah or a segulah is bodering on a”z c”v.”
Oh right, I forgot that you are the ones who calls the shots on all A”Z and Apikorsus related issues. I think I saw your sefer in the Seforim store last week, the one called “הבנת הכסיל” with the attached Kuntres “היפוכם בגולם”.You asked what his/her problem was with it and he/she is answering your question.
@DaasYochid,
“Do you really not see how badly it shmeks of a”z?”
As you might suspect, I’m not someone who goes for these things in general, (which might explain why I haven’t heard of it) but because I’m not comfortable with it, or think it’s a weird mishegas, doesn’t make it A”Z chas vesholom. A”Z is worshipping other God’s, and derivatives of this. This is neither. I also don’t approve of life size murals of the Rebbe in the streets of Crown Heights, (I’m far from the only one, seeing that it was vandalized) but my opinions aren’t kovea what A”Z is. Neither should yours. Reiki and the like give me a bad vibe, and they possibly could be Avizrayu D’a”z, but would I reject a shidduch with someone who’s family does it? I’d be rejecting quite a significant part of Klal Yisroel. (Lakewood b’sochom)@RSO,
“so to quote it to prove anything about lubavitch is circular reasoning”
If only you (and some others) would actually read what I’ve been posting, I’m not trying to prove anything. I was countering an argument which used this story.Pictures of Rebbeim?
I’m not sure if people place a picture of the Rebbe under the baby’s head by a bris, it’s certainly possible, I’ve never seen it, but I don’t have a problem with it if it is done. How exactly does it bother you? If it’s not a legitimate Minhag, I wouldn’t do it, but I don’t think it’s problematic in any way.Regarding the Sicha that DaasYochid so kindly uploaded, I’ll try get to typing something up tomorrow. In the meantime, before cursing out something (most of) you haven’t even read, try reading it in full.
@DaasYochid,
“Pardon my ignorance, but wasn’t it stated in the other thread that according to Chabad thought, there is only one צדיק הדור?If so, why was there even a competition?”
Huh? There are many Tzadikim in every generation, and here we have to Tzadikim on opposing sides.
@Gaon,
I’m not bringing this as proof for anything, if you are following what’s going on, I was responding to CS bringing this story. And it’s not a “mere story” it was told by the Rebbeim.@RSO,
“Again, PLEASE don’t expect others to accept as fact stories that have no source other than lubavitch story books!”I was waiting for you to say that. How predictable.
Firstly, stories said by the Rebbeim aren’t “Lubavitch story books”.Secondly, this story is said throughout the Chasidishe velt, I myself have heard it from other Chassidim.
And the Baal HaTanyas opposition to Napoleon is recorded by him, himself.
If B[ona]p[arte] will be victorious, Jewish wealth will increase, and the prestige of the Jewish people will be raised; but their hearts will disintegrate and be distanced from their Father in Heaven. But if A[lexander] will be victorious, although Israel’s poverty will increase and their prestige will be lowered, their hearts will be joined, bound and unified with their Father in Heaven. (Igros Kodesh Admur HaZaken, letter #64)
@DaasYochid,
“I know. I’m sure it’s not universally accepted; it’s certainly not my (Litvish yeshiva) mesorah.But even if you accept the concept, can’t you see how dangerously it’s being applied?”
Maybe it’s not universal. I don’t know. But Tanya is pretty accepted, so you shouldn’t have a problem with us believing that. I don’t think she’s applying that incorrectly. She didn’t base the partner stuff on that.
@CS,
“However Hashem does ask and involve tzaddikim in His decision making process, like the example I gave above about the war with Napoleon. So the word partner I guess was not the right word and wouldn’t have been used this context so I’m sorry I used it. It applies after the fact to whet they’re considered. ”I think that just illustrates the idea of צדיק גוזר הקב”ה מקיים . I’m not sure why you make it into a whole “partner” idea.
The Alter Rebbe didn’t want Napoleon to be victorious, worried that it would affect Yiddishkait in Russia, (btw, this idea is also very well explained in V’atah Tetzavah) and the Maggid of Kozhnitz (and others, R. Shlomo of Karlin, the Berditchever, R. Mendel of Rimanov) disagreed. They felt that a victory for Napoleon would herald the coming of Moshiach. On Rosh Hashonah 5573 (1812- 1813) both the Tzadikim rose early to be the first to blow the Shofar, the Magid of Kozhnitz went to mikva, and began davening as early as possible, the Alter Rebbe blew his Shofar at the crack of dawn before davening. “The Litvak (as the Alter Rebbe was known, being from Lithuania) has bested us” the Magid of Kozhnitz told his Talmidim. In the end, Czar Alexander was indeed victorious over Napoleon.
I see this story as צדיק גוזר.
@DaasYochid,
This CS isn’t making up. It says so in Tanya. A Tzadik the way the Baal HaTanya describes it, has conquered his Yetzer HoRa, and his only Ratzon is to fulfill Hashems Ratzon. Again, maybe a bad choice of words, but the concept is there.@CS,
I think you can and should admit that it’s wrong to say “the Rebbe is Hashems partner in running the world”. This is very unsettling language, which no Chossid I know has said. It doesn’t say this anywhere in Chassidus. You have obviously learned V’atah Tetzavah, all about the role of a Tzadik and a Nossi. It doesn’t say this. I don’t know where you are getting these words from. Don’t defend the indefensible. Admit that it’s wrong, and explain what you do (or should) believe.@DaasYochid,
“Probably true, but again, why doesn’t the very expression revile her? There’s something very wrong going on if a mainstream shluchah can use that lashon.”I certainly would never use such a loshon, and it does indeed scare me. I have heard people using strange l’shonos, and I’m not the only Lubavitcher bothered by them. But it’s innocence and naivete, not A”Z.
@Slabodka,
“Do you disagree with what he said in the video? Or are you afraid to answer that?You say you dont daven to the rebbe, but you still ask him for Brachos-from his picture, no less (At least that is what CS said). ”
How can I comment on a video that I’ve never seen? I never even heard of it before this thread.
I ask for brochos from the Rebbes picture? I never have, and have never seen such a thing. I ask for a brocha by writing a Pidyon Nefesh and placing it at the Rebbes Tziyun.
@DaasYochid,
“When those in Chabad, such as yourself, whose shittos do not include such blatent a”z turn a blind eye to such talk (and actions) and merely “take issue” with it, and write it off as mere semantics, you allow the very serious and rampant problem to fester and get worse.”I know what she meant, and it’s not A”Z. It’s a matter of not properly conveying what she’s trying to say. In this case, it is semantics.
When (I haven’t yet) I see a case of real A”Z, (rumor has it that there are several in Israel, Tzfas specifically, and they definitely are marginalized, no one considers such people frum, never mind Chabad.) I will condemn it and call it out for what it is. I’m trying to convey normative Chabad ideology, which is based on the words of the Baal HaTanya, in this case, Tanya Perek Bais.What I think CS is trying to say, and others mentioned it too is that practically everything we believe in this subject comes straight out of Tanya, Perek Bais:
וכן בכל דור ודור יש ראשי אלפי ישראל שנשמותיהם הם בחי’ ראש ומוח לגבי נשמות ההמון וע”ה וכן נפשות לגבי נפשות כי כל נפש כלולה מנפש רוח ונשמה מכל מקום שרש כל הנפש רוח ונשמה כולם מראש כל המדריגות עד סוף כל דרגין המלובש בגוף עמי הארץ וקל שבקלים נמשך ממוח העליון שהיא חכמה עילאה כביכול …
כי יניקת וחיו’ נפש רוח ונשמה של עמי הארץ הוא מנפש רוח ונשמה של הצדיקים והחכמים ראשי בני ישראל שבדורם: ובזה יובן מאמר רז”ל על פסוק ולדבקה בו שכל הדבק בת”ח מעלה עליו הכתוב כאלו נדבק בשכינה ממש כי ע”י דביקה בתלמידי חכמים קשורות נפש רוח ונשמה של עמי הארץ ומיוחדות במהותן הראשון ושרשם שבחכמה עילאה שהוא ית’ וחכמתו א’ והוא המדע כו’
I don’t have time to write up what this all means for those who need it, but you can readily access translations and explanations online. If the mods allow, here’s a link http://www.chabad.org/library/tanya/tanya_cdo/aid/7881/jewish/Chapter-2.htm
@Syag,
“I am sorry you have this false impression, let me clear this up for you” (which is what we have been asking) your response is, “you all make me sick and I expected nothing less and instead of offering you any information I will just tell you all what I think of you”We are trying to clear it up, but when we tell you that we don’t daven to the Rebbe, you decide that we still do.
If you want, write down a list of questions, not pre conceived notions (like, “why do you daven to the Rebbe”) and I’ll do my best to answer. And for the reference, questions to Cunin can be addressed to him, I don’t work for him.
@CS,
“Not when Hashem Himself decides to make tzaddikim His partners in running the world”That’s not a very good loshon to use. I take issue with it.
Additionally, it’s not a very good argument either, because what do you think anyone who was doing shituf would tell you? I obviously don’t think you are, but if I did, that wouldn’t convince me otherwise.@Bubbyo,
“It’s time for Chabad to rejoin the body of Klal Yisroel again”
Well, thanks for inviting us back so nicely. I’ll raise it with the board next general meeting.I’m not sure why anyone here gets the impression that any Lubavitcher here (I, CS, Aww,) is defending davening to the Rebbe. I don’t “daven to the Rebbe” I daven to Hashem. I’ve been Lubavitch my entire life, I’ve never seen anyone “daven to the Rebbe”.
When a Chossid goes to his Rebbes Tziyun, and davens there, that’s beseeching the Rebbe to intercede on your behalf just like a live Tzadik would. Hishtatchus Al Kivrei Tzadikim is not a new concept. Yidden of all stripes do it, ever been to Meron on Lag Baomer? I’ve personally seen Rebbes of other kraizen visit the Lubavitcher Rebbes Tziyun. Are they also “serving a”z?” Yehoshua and Kalev visited Kivrei Tzadikim, the Avos. It’s not a new practice. (I know, the Gra wrote against it… and Litvaks visit his Kever too…)
It’s mind boggling how every time you don’t like something you can throw out “avodah Zara!”. Maybe you should focus on the things that many frum people do that have more likelihood of being A”Z, like yoga, reiki, etc.
Or how about the “Blei Gisen” (pouring lead) to remove Ayin Hora which many say originates in Avoda Zara? I haven’t seen mass protests to it. It’s done in many frum communities, Lakewood too I’m sure.
When I quoted those lines before, with no context at all, just the original, some of you decided that the way I’m using them is also A”Z.
צדיק גוזר…
Of course I mean that the Rebbe is the Aibershter r”l. What else do Lubavitchers believe? Incredulous how you can decide what we believe, and put words in our mouths.Re Rabbi Cunin, I don’t know about you, but in Lubavitch we aren’t sitting watching videos of him. I’ve never seen this video or any other video of him. Regardless, the insiders will tell you that he’s isn’t the most stable of people…
@Joseph,
I’ll answer in order.
1. It’s a generational thing. Hence the title “Nossi Hador”. The Alter Rebbes Chassidim treated him the way (more or less) we treat our Rebbe, same goes for the Frierdiker Rebbe and the other Rebbeim. I’m not sure which things you mean by “attribute all these things”.2. After the Frierdiker Rebbes passing, a Chossid asked the Rebbe how we should continue writing to the Frierdiker Rebbe if there’s no answers anymore. The Rebbe answered him, “place your letter at the Frierdiker Rebbes Tziyun, and the Frierdiker Rebbe will find a way to answer” sometimes we’ll see an answer, and other times we won’t. The Rebbe during his lifetime didn’t answer every single letter either.
No, letters don’t drop from Shamayim, and finding letters and deciding that they were written to you specifically (opening Igros at random) was never instructed by the Rebbe.
Letter read by the Chuppah: I’m not sure what there is to understand here. Simply, the Rebbe would write a letter with the same standard text to all Chassanim and Kallos, and after the Rebbes histalkus, now that we don’t get a personal letter from him, we simply read out the Nusach he would write. FYI, same goes for Bar Mitzvos and other special occasions.
3. Chilul Lubavitch isn’t an “official” Chabad concept, it’s just something people say. I’ve heard many Lubavitchers who don’t like that term, but regardless, the way I understand it is:
A Chilul Lubavitch is obviously a Chilul Hashem, but it refers to basically, bad PR for Lubavitch in particular. It means when our image is ruined specifically. Again, out of all things, I don’t know why this bothers you. You’ve raised it in other threads too.I’m just going to throw out a few lines here which many of you I’m sure will deem “problematic”.
שכינה מדברת מתוך גרונו
צדיקים דומים לבוראם
אתפשטותא דמשה שבכל דרא ודרא
צדיק גוזר הקב”ה מקיים
מרדכי בדורו כמשה בדורומשה הוא ישראל וישראל הם משה, לומר לך שנשיא הדור הוא ככל הדור, כי הנשיא הוא הכל
אין דור שאין בו כמשה
I’ll be happy to source any of these problematic מאמרי חז”ל for you if you need.
@TOI,
“I found a site called identifying chabad dot org,”That’s like quoting the failed messiah site as proof for something I don’t like in the Chareidi world. Pretty stupid of you.
I think this entire thread is useless, and most of the commenters (you know who you are) are just “out for blood” and not willing to hear out any Lubavitcher explain anything. I have much to say, but I won’t waste my time with the likes of TaoI and LitvisherMisnaged (apologies if I forgot to mention you). @ChabadShlucha you’re trying valiantly, but I’m afraid you’re wasting your time here. Perhaps use your skills in the comments section on chabad.org:)
@OOTY,
Why don’t you try Walmart? I’ve been to hick towns all over, the nearest Walmart (not always so near) will always carry white shirts and black dress pants, although, if you’re near homeless, you don’t need to be spending your money on Yeshivish clothes.@LitvisheMisnaged,
“You know how many lubavitchers I observed sitting in yeshiva with shorts! ”
Zero.@LitvisheMisnaged,
Wow you’re back with all the hate! You are such a troll, it’s incredible.
“-Ill assume your only referring to bochurim, then shkoyach for being “tzanua” in hot temperatures since litvishe bochurim usually just slap on a tank top and shorts in the summer without tzitzis as they sit and learn in Yeshiva right?”I spent time in Miami, and I noticed many Litvishe bochurim who normally sit and learn in Lakewood with a white shirt and black pants, stroll around in T Shirts and shorts. So for you it is a big deal to be outside of the community and still dress properly.
@Neville,
“I think not enough kids brought up in such homes have reached adulthood yet for us to see what happens. My prediction would be that they will not frei out, but that they will be really visibly weird and different if they try to live in a normal community.”I guess you aren’t too familiar with Chabad, but the first Shluchim went out in the 1950s, and they have grandchildren and great grandchildren on Shlichus, and frume Yidden.
A friend of mines grandfather is one of the very early Shluchim, and his kids and grandkids are all frum and Chassidish, some of them on Shlichus.
@OutOfTownYid,
”
I was unable, for example to even get Chanukah candles, so I used tealights instead. Not the real thing….but all I had. Of course Chanukah oil is not here. Another sacrifice. YES, I could today ORDER such things on the internet, BUT I could not afford to”I feel very sorry for you and if you would detail your situation here perhaps we could help you somewhat.
A little advice regarding Chanukah Licht:
All you need is regular olive oil available in all stores, all over the world. Then buy some cotton balls, (also readily available) and roll them into wicks. Take the candles out of your tea lights, and fill the metal tea light with oil, then place the wicks inside. Works perfectly, and is the ultimate Hiddur Mitzvah.
(From a Lubavitcher who has gone to places outside of the frum community, where ready made Chanukah kits aren’t sold). Hatzlacha Rabba!@mdd1,
I knew that was coming. Obviously you aren’t too well versed in Rambam to know what and who he calls an Am Haaretz. When I have some time I’ll quote a few.@Joseph,
Sure the punishments are out there, but is that why you shouldn’t do the aveiros? These “fire and brimstone” warnings, are usually reserved for people who are doing Aveiros, knowingly, because they couldn’t care about their relationship with the Aibershter, and aren’t really interested in what he wants.Tell me Joseph, if Gehinnom were to close down (due to “lack of interest”) would you still be a frum Yid? What if Schar also stopped? Why would you continue being frum?
A practical example:
Until 20 years we aren’t punished for our Aveiros, so why shouldn’t one do Aveiros until he or she turns 20?@mdd1,
“Sechel HaYahar, that Rambam is meant for ba’alei madreigah, and we are speaking of simple folk here.”Speak for yourself, but I think most people would take issue with being called an Am Haaretz, which is who the Rambam says such a view is for. Also, see Pirkei Avos 1:3:
אל תהיו כעבדים המשמשין את הרב על מנת לקבל פרס, אלא הוו כעבדים המשמשין את הרב שלא על מנת לקבל פרס, ויהי מורא שמים עליכם.
English Translation:
“Do not be as slaves, who serve their master for the sake of reward. Rather, be as slaves who serve their master not for the sake of reward. And the fear of Heaven should be upon you.”It’s evident from the above Maamar Chazal as well as the Rambam quoted above, that the Chachamim didn’t exactly encourage doing Mitzvos in order to receive Schar, or refrain from committing Aveiros because of fear of Gehinnom, which is why we use the term “Yiras Shomayim” not “Yiras Gehinnom”, because we’re not selfish people driven by rewards, rather, we want to do what Hashem wants, to fulfill his will, because that’s why he created us. We want to give Hashem Nachas Ruach, not earn mileage points on the Heavenly Express ™.
@Joseph,
I guess that Rambam Hilchos Teshuva I posted got ignored.@ChabadShlucha,
@Joseph,
Serving Hashem from fear of punishment or wanting to receive Schar, is not the ultimate level of Avodas Hashem, and far from it. As the Rambam says in Hilchos Teshuva, Perek 10:1
אל יאמר אדם הריני עושה מצות התורה ועוסק בחכמתה כדי שאקבל כל הברכות הכתובות בה או כדי שאזכה לחיי העולם הבא, ואפרוש מן העבירות שהזהירה תורה מהן כדי שאנצל מן הקללות הכתובות בתורה או כדי שלא אכרת מחיי העולם הבא. אין ראוי לעבוד את ה’ על הדרך הזה, שהעובד על דרך זה הוא עובד מיראה ואינה מעלת הנביאים ולא מעלת החכמים. ואין עובדים ה’ על דרך זה אלא עמי הארץ והנשים והקטנים שמחנכין אותן לעבוד מיראה עד שתרבה דעתן ויעבדו מאהבה:English Translation:
A person should not say: “I will fulfill the mitzvot of the Torah and occupy myself in its wisdom in order to receive all the blessings which are contained within it or in order to merit the life of the world to come.”“[Similarly,] I will separate myself from all the sins which the Torah warned against so that I will be saved from all the curses contained in the Torah or so that [my soul] will not be cut off from the life of the world to come.”
It is not fitting to serve God in this manner. A person whose service is motivated by these factors is considered one who serves out of fear. He is not on the level of the prophets or of the wise.
The only ones who serve, God in this manner are common people, women, and minors. They are trained to serve God out of fear until their knowledge increases and they serve out of love.
From here we see two important points.
1. Children do need to be educated in serving Hashem out of from and for Schar. This is what’s taught in virtually every frum school. That’s the way children can relate to serving Hashem. However,2. We must recognize that while we do get punished for transgressing Hashems will, and we do get rewarded for listening to Hashem, this is not the reason why we serve him. We must serve Hashem out of love, not fear or gaining reward.
“Basically after the guy died, the two headed son wanted a double portion because he claimed he was two people. The case came to Shlomo hamelech who paskened that they pour a boiling mixture over one of the heads to ascertain if he is indeed two people.”
Ah, now I remember this story. I don’t know where the source is, but I would’ve read it in The Little Midrash Says. (Do kids still read it today?)@ChabadShlucha,
Perhaps the discussion the Rebbe had with the Belzer Rebbe. If I remember correctly, they discussed this. You can find it in the book Shemen Sasson I think. Amongst other places.You’ll have to excuse my ignorance, where does this story come from? I know the other story with Shlomo Hamelech and Ashmedai is from Gittin, but where’s this one from?
Anything that isn’t Derech Bishul is mutar behanaah. Although could be that midrabanan it’s assur behanaah.
@LitvisheChossid,
(I think I’ve mentioned the irony in that name before)
Why do you keep insisting that Collive is representative of Chabad Lubavitch? Maybe speak to a real live Lubavitcher and ask them what they think about that.Also, your attacks on ChabadShlucha are quite disgusting, you have a serious chip on your shoulder about Chabad. Can you please tell us which Lubavitcher did what to you to cause this attitude?
I’m not going to respond to everything else on this thread, I just thought I’d comment about the fact that almost every thread began by ChabadShlucha becomes a bashing Chabad thread.
For something to be assur behanaah it has to be Derech Bishul, I don’t think a microwave counts.
If the microwave was dirty and the Basar Bechalav dirt came in hot contact with the food being warmed up, it could possibly be Assur Behanaah.
If the kosher food had 60 times the treif, it wouldn’t be Assur Behanaah.In general, something must be an Issur Deoraysah to become Assur Behanaah, which isn’t always so easy.
If the previous Basar Bechalav was an “Issur Baluah” (for example a potato which absorbed Basar Bechalav), it wouldn’t asser behanaah.
If it wasn’t kosher meat and kosher milk, (non kosher species is definitely not assur behanaah, kosher species is assur behanaah according to most Poskim, Dagul Mervava is meikil bmokom hefsed).In short, it probably wasn’t assur behanaah.
Hilchos Shabbos regarding Bris Milah on Shabbos. Brought in the Alter Rebbe.
“In which cities are there kosher food and minyanim.?
Perhaps chabad?”
Either you’re living under a rock, or you’re trying to be funny.
If I hadn’t seen the beginning of the question, I’d think you were asking about Florida, or Virginia.Places much less dangerous than Jordan or Lebanon have no Chabad, or any minyanim.
@Avram,
“Neither political party has a Torah perspective, and to try and wedge the Torah into the Republican or Democratic platform is wrong and dangerous.”Of course neither party is Al Pi Torah, but as an frum Yid, one must seek out the party that is closest. It’s not wedging Torah inot the platform, it’s simply voting for the party that most resembles Torah values.
If one believes that Democrats uphold the Torah more than Republicans, by all means, vote for them.
Except that to the honest and knowledgeable Jew, that idea is unfathomable, as Democrats are largely secular athiestic people, who are strongly against religion. They love religion as a cultural practice, but not because that’s the word of Hashem. And when religion conflicts with current popular opinion, religion gets thrown under the bus.
This reminds me of the idea that really, the Yevanim didn’t have a problem with Yidden keeping Mitzvos and learning Torah, rather, they said go ahead, just learn for the academic pursuit, and do Mitzvos for the “cultural beauty” of them.
This is what destroys Yiddishkait, and it must be fought.
@Zahavasdad,
“The idea one should work Hard and it leads to salvation is not a jewish idea, that is a puritan idea. Did you ever hear of the Protestant Work Ethic? that comes from Puratinism.The Puratains belived if you didnt work, you should starve”
Not sure that you saw anything that I referenced. And I’m not quite sure what you mean by “salvation”.
I hope I’m not triggering anyone, I would think that a Yid with values taken from the Torah would generally align with the Conservative parties in his or her respective countries. Torah is very much fiscally conservative, and obviously even more so, socially conservative.
Compassion doesn’t in any way force one to be liberal, nor does it negate conservatism. Though we are obligated to give Tzedakah, we don’t believe in pooling all the wealth together, or various redistribution schemes.
Mans property belongs neither to him, nor to the Government, rather all that we own belongs to Hashem. And Hashem requires us to give Tzedakah. We are merely “masters” of our material property, hence the fact that in Lashon HaKodesh there’s no word for “Own” or “Owner”, it’s Baal HaBayis, because we are just the masters of it.
Torah recognizes man’s ability to rise above his circumstances, and doesn’t view a person as a mere victim of his fate.
Torah demands hard work, and values the fruits of one’s own labor; “Odom L’omol Yivaled”, “Y’gia Kapecha Ki Sochal” ‘”Odom Rotze B’kav Shelo”, “Nahmah Dichsufa”, and many more.
Abortion on demand is obviously prohibited by the Torah, for Yidden and Goyim, and so is SSM and all that comes along with it.
As Yidden, we have a duty to educate people in, and uphold the Sheva Mitzvos Bnei Noach, which would entail voting for the party that closest resembles what Hashem would want.
Feel free to argue below:)
The sicha where the Rebbe discussed the shape of the Menorah is printed in Likkutei Sichos Chelek 21 Parshas Terumah, Sicha Gimmel, page 164. Anyone with someone basic Jewish literacy and Yiddish language can read and understand it, instead of aimlessly posting on this forum.
Most of the questions asked here were answered in that Sicha long ago. If you open it up, who knows? Maybe you’ll even learn something new.
I wrote a whole long post which seems to have disappeared.
Judaism does recognize, and require marriage between Bnai Noach. There are two deios of what constitutes such a marriage.
1. The view of the Rambam (Ishus 1:1)
When a man takes a woman into his home, and they live together as a couple, that constitutes a marriage.קודם מתן תורה היה אדם פוגע אשה בשוק אם רצה הוא והיא לישא אותה מכניסה לתוך ביתו ובועלה בינו לבין עצמו ותהיה לו לאשה. כיון שנתנה תורה נצטוו ישראל שאם ירצה האיש לישא אשה יקנה אותה תחלה בפני עדים ואח”כ תהיה לו לאשה שנאמר כי. יקח איש אשה ובא אליה
The Rambam (Melochim 9:8) would additionally require the marriage to be publicly known, just as the divorce is accompanied by an act that publicizes it.
בן נח שייחד שפחה לעבדו ובא עליה הרי זה נהרג עליה משום אשת חבירו. ואינו חייב עליה עד שיפשט הדבר ואמרו לה העם זו דבית עבד פלוני. ומאימתי תחזור להיתרה משיפרישנה מעבדו ויפרע ראשה בשוק. ומאימתי תהיה אשת חבירו כגרושה שלנו משיוציאנה מביתו וישלחנה לעצמה. או משתצא היא מתחת רשותו ותלך לה. שאין להם גירושין בכתב. ואין הדבר תלוי בו לבד. אלא כל זמן שירצה הוא או היא לפרוש זה מזה פורשין:
2. The Ramban (Bereishis 25:6):
The Ramban, in addition to the requirements set out by the Rambam above would also require financial commitments on the mans behalf to his wife.Divorce:
Death of a spouse terminates the marriage, as does divorce. By a Ben Noach divorce can be initiated by either husband or wife. Divorce is effected by a “sending” from the house; but this doesn’t mean that a “temporary abandonment” of one spouse by the other constitutes a divorce. According to the above quoted Rambam it would seem that divorce would require the same seriousness of intent as marriage would.Alephs, Ayins, double Vov, chof is used instead of ches unless the word comes from Hebrew. Once you are accustomed to reading Yiddish, you tell apart Hebrew and Yiddish right away.
@DaasYochid,
“I can accept Seichal Hayoshor’s approach as within normative Judaism. He feels the Rebbe was a great man, but didn’t claim all these things about himself. Sure, my mesorah about how to approach Moshiach, kiruv, learning, and other inyanim are different, but that doesn’t mean that I think his are outside of Judaism.”Thanks for the affirmation of my beliefs as normative Judaism. I really needed it:)
Do you really believe that ChabadShluchas (for example) beliefs are truly outside the pale of Yiddishkait?@MoshiachChat,
“The Lubavitcher Rebbe is someone who if he said he was a pickle he could prove it to u in shaas.
Daas Yochid:
And you would believe it.”Oy vey how low have we fallen. Rebbe, what has happened with some of your so called Chassidim??
How much longer will you belittle the Rebbe with your absolute claptrap, you are living a lie, and making a sheer fool of yourself and more importantly, being mevaze our Rebbe!!You don’t like it when others are mevaze the Rebbe, but you fail to realize that you and your ilk are the root of much of it. A misnaged couldn’t cause the harm to Lubavitch that you (plural) do without even trying!
You walk around, in person and online, making a mockery of our holy Rebbe, spewing nonsense propaganda in his holy name! Every waking moment is dedicated to perpetuating a farce.
When will you come to your senses and go back to Lubavitch?!
Shuvu Bonim Shovovim!Ad mosai, how long will this continue?!
@DaasYochid,
” I was questioning the Lubavicher Rebbe’s integrity”
Oh it was you. Sorry again Non Political. Yes, if you can question the Rebbes integrity, I can question Rav Shachs as well. If you won’t question his integrity, but will only give criticism, I’ll do the same.
I was under the impression that Gedolim weren’t infallible, and questioning their integrity was not off limits.@MoshiachChat,
“repaired – next time it will just be deleted”
I’m going to give you some general advice, take it or don’t. A certain degree of respect is warranted if you don’t want to get moderated, or have what you are trying to say totally dismissed. I’m going to give an extreme example here, so please bear with me all:Lehavdil elef alfei havdalos, if I was speaking with Christians trying to find something to agree on (perhaps to get missionaries off our backs, or whatever, it’s only an example to illustrate my point) I wouldn’t start making fun of Yoshke, I’d refer to him respectfully, while vehemently disagreeing with virtually everything that he ever said. Once you disrespect him, you lose.
Again to clarify, I’m not comparing anyone and certainly not Talmidei Chachamim to Yoshke chas vesholom, I’m trying to bring out a point, that even when you totally disagree, respect is necessary, if only so you remain relevant. (Of course, any Rov is deserving of a certain amount of respect).
Please don’t go crazy over my remarks, this is a flawed example, but all I could come up with now.@NP,
“You are welcome to quote Gedolim who disagreed with his position but you do not get to question his integrity.”I sniff a double standard here. I don’t have time to go through all your previous posts, so if I am wrong, apologies in advance.
@Phil,
(What a name for a nice Jewish boy)“Harav Shach’s zt”l fierce opposition to the Rebbe’s Rambam campaign. He foresaw that Chabad would very simplistically learn Mishne Torah, which needs to be studied in great depth, then deliberately corrupt and misuse it to confirm their cultish dogmas.”
I’m not sure what he foresaw, but as recently as 5772 Rav Vosner gave a beautiful speech at the Siyum HoRambam in Yerushalayim, and praised the Rebbes initiative. Such logic is like saying that Daf Yomi shouldn’t be learned because someone might take the wrong ideas out of it by learning it on a superficial level.
The Siyum HoRambam has always been attended by Gedolei Harabbanim, and opposition to Yidden learning Torah solely because of who the initiator was brings into question the motives of his machlokes, whether it was a machlokes Lsheim Shomayim or not.
Lest you think that I’m lacking emunas chachomim or questioning Gedolei HaDor, I quote the words of Daas Yochid, a famed Coffee Room contributer, and an avid poster on this forum:
“You decided that a basar vodom is infallible, and when it became clear that he made a mistake, your world turned upside down. So you suspended all reason and rational thinking to twist matters to fit your indefensible world view.”
It’s quite clear to many Yidden that however great he was, he made a mistake by declaring out children Bnei Niddah, our wine assur, our children not worthy of marrying, and many other indefensible statements.
I don’t know where the Rebbe that he is a Navi. And I know what you’re going to say, so: Navi there quite clearly doesn’t mean literally a Navi as in Navi in the Torah. And the Rebbe doesn’t say that he’s a Navi of any kind. I definitely believe that the Rebbe had Ruach Hakodesh, but that’s not literal Nevuah. And Chayim Nitzchiyim? Sure, when Moshiach comes he’ll have Chayim Nitzchiyim. As I type this message, I’m still in Galus.
@Daas,
“Somehow, I don’t think Seichel Hayoshor is going to be too thrilled when he reads MoshiachChat’s latest nonsense.”
I’ve long given up on reasoning with him. It only makes him say more nonsense. It’s like the gears on a bicycle, the harder the resistance, the faster it gets.