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“The question only is what if the person DID fulfill bchezkas moshiach but then passed away yet their work is ongoing so you cannot say lo hitzliach ad ko? That’s what we’re discussing here. Note you didn’t answer my question. I really would appreciate a straight answer.”
As I have written previously, the Rebbe was not Chezkas Moshiach. He simply didn’t fulfill it. There’s no way to read the Rambam and understand otherwise.“Note the Rambam never discusses what happens if the bchezkas moshiach passes away naturally. He only says two things disqualify: If he is unsuccessful or if he is killed”
In the interest of intellectual honesty, I’d like to point out the before Gimmel Tammuz, it was very Poshut to any Lubavitcher that Moshiach must come from the living. No one had ever come up with these diyukim of “it says Nehrag, not meis”. After Gimmel Tammuz however, many now realized that they had a problem reconciling their beliefs with the unfortunate reality. So there were two approaches, one was “true, Moshiach must be alive, but the Rebbe simply never was Nistalek, he’s still alive in a Guf Gashmi”, the other approach is that of course, the Rebbe passed away, however, Moshiach could be Min HaMeisim. While the second one is obviously less delusional, nobody would have ever thought that way before Gimmel Tammuz.
“He explains that they wanted to stay in the Midbor was because their Avodas Hashem would be better there, but the Chidushei Horim explains that it is not their business to make a cheshbon like that.”
Slightly off topic, in a very famous Sicha, the Rebbe explains why they thought their Avoda would be better in the Midbar than in Eretz Yisrael. I won’t do justice to it in a few lines, but the basic idea is that in the Midbar the Yidden had everything they needed, and could serve the Eibeshter with no distractions of physical life. In Eretz Yisrael however, they would need to work the land, and get involved with Mitzvos Maasiyos. Their Svarah made sense, but the ultimate Kavana is to make a Dirah B’tachtonim, by being in Eretz Yisrael, they would have to bring Avodas Hashem into the material world, by elevating Gashmiyus and utilizing it for Kedusha. Once the world is sufficiently elevated and refined, the Tachlis HaShleimus of Dirah B’tachtonim will come about, the Shchina resting in this world, B’galuy, with Bias Moshiach Tzidkeinu.Syag,
I was never segregated from non Lubavitch kids, and have never heard of such a thing. I know many Lubavitchers who grew up in communities like Monsey who played with their Chassidish or Litvishe neighbors. If anything, it’s parents of the non Lubavitcher kids who don’t want the Lubavitcher kids to have a “bad influence” on their kids. I personally remember when I was a kid, a non Lubavitcher friend of mine wasn’t allowed to come play at my house by his parents…“Hasem’s purpose in putting us in this world, is, to quote the TANYA “La’asos lo dira b’tachtonim” , via Mizvos uma’asim tovim! This means NOT working to bring the Geulah, but concentrating on limud haTora, & asiyas hamizva l’shem Hashem, WITHOUT any ulterior motives. “Neeman baal melachtecho leshalem s;char peulosecha” without our forcing the issue. This will only MINIMIZE our dedication of doing mizvos l’shem Hashem, because we will do it for OUR OWN GRATIFICATION. None of the first 5 Chabad Rebbes obsessed about Moshiach so much!”
A little research and understanding the idea of Dirah B’tachtonim will show you that what you just wrote is utter nonsense, I don’t have patience to spell it out, but maybe one of the other Lubavitchers here will be patient enough to unpack what you wrote. Or if I have some time later I’ll try.
“Well we have the halacha that shlucho shel adam kmoso. Also, remember Shimshon, about whom it is said that he reigned for 40 years although he only lived as a shofet for 20. Why? Because his influence over the plishtim extended 20 years after his passing, and Torah therefore writes that HE ruled the yidden for all those 40 years. So as long as the Rebbe’s efforts continue, he can still be considered bchezkas Moshiach.”
That’s wonderful, but that isn’t Koveah Halacha. Ma Zaroy BaChayim Af Hu doesn’t mean that the Rebbe is considered physically alive in the sense that if we weren’t continuing his legacy, he couldn’t be Moshiach, but now that we are, he can. Halacha simply doesn’t work that way.
L’shitoseych, why do you feel compelled to believe that the Rebbe is already Chezkas Moshiach? Even before Gimmel Tammuz, by a simple reading of the Rambam, the Rebbe was not Chezkas Moshiach. If you want to, you can believe that the Rebbe will be Moshiach, there’s no reason (and no possible way) to say he was Chezkas Moshiach. For the same price, he was Moshiach Vadai.
“Also, Chabad weren’t the only ones not to sleep in the Sukkah, neither did Belz before the war. In a shmuess between Rav Shterenbuch of Antverpenn and the Satmar Rebbe of KJ, the latter says: “In Dzhikov one did not sleep in the Sukkah. If somebody happened to doze off in the Sukkah he would be awakened, so that he not transgress… They would wake him by saying: “Nu, Sukkah…”
But of course, if they aren’t Lubavitch, their Minhag doesn’t bother anyone…”
I wrote this 10 days ago, and it seems to just prove what I said about non Lubavitch minhagim not bothering anyone, it was barely noticed. From the above quote from the Satmar Rebbe, we see very clearly how the Dzhikov Chassidim very very makpid to sleep out of the Sukkah, Ad Kdei Kach that one was woken up if he fell asleep in the Sukkah. Clearly, there’s more at play in their Minhag than Tzaar of cold etc, and very possibly they had the same reason as Lubavitch does.
“I suspect Sechel Hayashar would agree with me.”
With much of what you said. I don’t have the time to give word by word commentary on your post, and show exactly what I do and don’t agree with.“SHY, most of your friends are meshichists?”
“DY, good diyuk. SHY is just saying what many of us already know – most chabadniks think the Rebbe is Mashiach, even if they aren’t delusional enough to say he’s alive.”No.
“Of course not, because if a Chabadnik says outright the Rebbe is not Moshiach anywhere but on the internet he gets run out of Chabad.”
Not true at all. My friends know where I stand on this, and I know other Lubavitchers who think the same way. I haven’t been “run out” of Chabad yet.
“Which other chassidic communities don’t sleep in a sukkah beshita?”
I already posted that information here.” Or how often did the Minchas Yitzchak write “הגה”צ” on leaders of Kefira movements, and quote him in his Shu”t?”
The Minchas Yitzchak also quotes the Rebbe regarding ships on Shabbos.
“I don’t think that’s the Rebbes approach. I only know of one person the Rebbe ousted, maybe two. ”
Two come to mind immediately, Shlomo Carlebach and Zalman “Shalomi” Schechter. There are others who are not as well known, several Shluchim thrown out by Merkos L’Inyonei Chinuch well before 5754. One in Florida, one in Ohio, and possibly a few more.
At risk of sounding crude, I’m going to say this anyway. The Rebbe wasn’t the fluffy and fuzzy character portrayed on JEM clips lovingly giving out dollars to all those who came. The Rebbe had principles, very storong ones. The Rebbe was absolutely uncompromising on his stances, and did not back down. When (some) Chassidim sang a niggun with words the Rebbe didn’t approve of, implying the Rebbe was Moshiach, the Rebbe was outraged, and said he wouldn’t come back into the Shul, until Mazkirim promised that it wouldn’t happen again. The Rebbe was similarly outraged at SBV when he came out with his infamous book, and forbade him from ever writing about Moshiach again, in very harsh terms.
When HaTikvah was sung at a dinner of Tomchei Tmimim, the Rebbe withdraw his Nesius from the Yeshiva.
There are many more such examples, but you can see how the Rebbe was unflinchingly intolerant of problematic conduct. One can only imagine the Rebbes reaction to much of what is going on in Lubavitch today, and to the Call of the Shofar episode.
“We dealt with the call of the shofar too.”
No, we did a horrible job taking care of it, and only a few Rabbonim and Mashpiim had the courage to stand up against it. It took a long time until everyone agreed on it.CS, I think you may have bought the image we often sell to Mekurovim about a fluffy and fuzzy Rabbi, with a silky long beard who loves everything and everyone unconditionally, no questions asked. This is a disgrace of everything the Rebbe stands for.
Once again, I apologise in advance if my words have hurt you, I have nothing against you, it’s the false ideology that I hate.
“But we don’t take cutting out lightly at all. ”
Yeah, that’s why we had a problem with the Call of the Shofar cult. We should be much quicker to throw people and ideas out, there’s a reason why Call of the Shofar targeted Chabad and was successful.
“When Mashiach comes, all the talmidim of each tzadik will line up behind his tzaddik. ”
Thanks YR, I don’t know who explained that to you in this way, but I was taught the same way.
“Sarcastic? I’m not sarcastic I’m floored! I’m baffled, puzzled and frankly I can’t even fathom such a scenario.But I am sick of you applying bad intentions to myself and others, which is why I would hardly think of you as respectful and why I try not to address you.”
I wrote “it seems from your tone” I didn’t establish that as fact. If you weren’t being sarcastic, I sincerely apologise.
“In the famous picture of her, which is on the official Chabad website, she’s not wearing a sheitel.”
How would you know that from seeing a picture? Because she has a hat with hair protruding? The Minhag in Beis HaRav was to wear a hat on top of the Sheitel, and I see no reason to believe that the Rebbetzin was any different to her predecessors.
“And what do you mean that hardly anyone saw her? Wasn’t their house open with constant streams of people as is the case with Gedolim, great rabbeim and people who live for the kehilla? Didn’t they have hundreds of shabbos guests? Didn’t the females who where desperate for Brachos and chizuk find a place at her door?”
No.
The Rebbetzin was an extremely private individual, and there were no streams of people coming through her home. The only times streams of Gedolim came through the Rebbes own home was when he was sitting Shiva. Gedolim visited the Rebbe in 770, whether for Yechidus, or in the later years, for Dollars. If you are so interested, you can listen to audio and watch video of many of those visits. One particularly well known audio is the visit of the Belzer Rebbe. But it seems from your tone that you are being sarcastic, and trying in intimate that if the Rebbe didn’t have throngs of people streaming through his home obviously he didn’t “live for the kehilla” as did other Gedolim, totally ignoring the fact that the Rebbe spent most of his time in 770, and that’s where countless individuals met with him, Gedolim or simple folk.“YOU ARE ALONE IN THAT RESPECT.
I think that Sechel Hayashar is also.”
Indeed. I am very respectful of Gedolei Yisrael, and have actually referenced their Sforim, and learned their Piskei Halacha, and seen their Chiddushim. As Orech Roshi of a certain Kovetz Haaros of a Lubavitcher Yeshiva, I personally mailed Seforim to many Gedolei Yisrael of America, and several in Eretz Yisrael. Among them were Rav Shmuel Kamenetzky and Rav Malkiel Kotler Sheyichyu. And if you will say that perhaps this is my own endeavor, but most Lubavitchers aren’t “Gores” the Gedolim, I did this because of the instructions of our Rosh Yeshiva, a very prominent and we’ll known Lubavitch, who’s on fabulous terms with the Gedolei Admorim and Rabbonim, who personally visit him when in his city, and even give Shiurim in his Yeshiva.
I can say without doubt, that I am far more respectful of “your” Gedolim than many here are of the Lubavitcher Rebbe Z”ya.
“There’s online evidence that she didn’t cover her hair k’halacha, and I’ve heard that she wore pants”
There’s online evidence that vaccines cause Austism, man didn’t land on the moon, the Royal family killed Dianne, and Bush / CIA / Mossad did 9/11.I saw a B’feirishe video with an important Doctor saying that vaccines cause Austism. And there’s a B’feirishe video (many actually) which links Mossad to 9/11.
Username beat me to it, but if you want to rely on Failed Messiah for “evidence” you’re going to have to believe lots of shmutz on the general frum world as well, not just Chabad.
“I called a Rav who said that as long as it’s not more of a sakana than a usual birth (high risk etc) its fine.”
That would be true, if it could be true. But as you would know far better than I, unexpected things that weren’t picked up on before by ultrasounds and other testing can arise, and if one isn’t in a hospital, grave danger can arise. A Rov can know all the Halacha and Shulchan Aruch backwards, but must be proficient in the Metzius too. “Atzas Rofe Yedid” never meant Google, it means asking real live specialists in the field, not an online rant by a homeopathic Home Birther.
Source for what i wrote regarding home births:
Mishne Halochos 2:21Because of the importance of the issue, I felt it necessary to post a free translation of the relevant part of the Tshuva:
Not only is giving birth in hospital permitting, on the contrary, it’s an obligation…
…. It’s well known that hospitals have all kinds of medical equipment on hand if the woman is in danger or if there arise any complications during the birth. They can give oxygen, blood transfusions etc, which isn’t possible at home. We have seen how many woman have died giving birth at home in previous generations, and how nowadays, very few women die in childbirth, being so, it is Assur to endanger any woman by giving birth at home, and it’s possible that if someone happens to her, they will be Chayav Benafsha.
…Even though it’s not certain that complications will arise, it’s considered Safek Pikuach Nefesh, and I personally know of such cases.
עד כאן.“whether I should give birth at home or a hospital after doing the medical and halachic research, ”
Regarding issues like this the Rebbe explicitly said to ask Rofim Yedidim, and follow majority opinion. And we all know what Drs say about homebirths. Halacha is quite clear on this as well, the famed Posek Rav Menashe HaKatan, the Ungvarer Rov, wrote vehemently against the home birth movement, and said that if CVS something were to happen to mother or baby, the mother and or those who talked her into it are Mischayev BeNafsham. Will post source soon.
CS,
“If sechel becomes a lubavitcher Rav one day I can see him saying something similar (that its a matter of hashkafa and not be willing to elaborate.)”
Firstly, I’m flattered, but in the fifth Chelek of Shulchan Aruch there’s a Seif that states that one who has spent too long on the Coffee Room is disqualified from being a Rov:)What your Rov told you is something I wrote on one of these threads long ago, that even if you wish to believe that the Rebbe will be Moshiach, (something that the Rebbe himself negtes, in a Haara in a Sicha, will post the MM later) it’s impossible to claim that he is, or ever was Chezkas Moshiach. Obviously, if he were to have a Techiya before everyone else, he could potentially fulfill those criteria, though, as I said, the Rebbe doesn’t seem to hold this way.
““The women in Williamsburg are much more modestly dressed than in Crown Heights”. Need I say more?”
Yeah, no one ever argued with that.
Syag, she never said that. Talk about reading comprehension, you missed a key word.
I quote: “In chassidish non lubavitch society, dressing tznius is not NECESSARILY an indication of sensitivity to kedusha and yiras shomayim, but an indication of communal pressure. ”She never intimated or otherwise implied that non Lubavitch Chassidim dress Tznius not because of Yiras Shamayim, what she was saying is, is that sometimes dress is not a good enough indication of Yiras Shamayim, because outward behavior, and dress in particular are prone to being influenced by societal norms and pressure. This isn’t rocket science, it’s a very good observation.
““ In chassidish non lubavitch society, dressing tznius is not necessarily an indication of sensitivity to kedusha and yiras shomayim, but an indication of communal pressure. ”
How do you say things like that with a straight face?”
I for one agree. It’s not necessarily a good thing, but the fact is that in Lubavitch today, there is no such thing as communal pressure, rather איש הישר בעיניו יעשה, so when the stigma isn’t there, and someone still does the right thing, it shows on a certain depth of character, and strong principles.
Societal pressure is a good thing, and one of the issues in many Lubavitcher communities today is that there simply isn’t any, but on the other hand, societal pressure also masks many underlying issues within the said society. I’m not going to illustrate my point, it resonates differently within every community.
Halevai we had communal pressure in Crown Heights, and Halevai people would have the sensitivity and Bushah to dress properly even if they don’t believe in it.
“That sounds very interesting
No, unless “interesting” is a euphemism for “retarded”.”
Clearly you didn’t read the rest of what I wrote. Interesting very often doesn’t have a positive connotation.
“He said that the Rambams conditions are unapplicable to the Rebbe today as the Rambams terms were only written to determine someone who is alive. Not if moshiach comes from the dead.”
That sounds very interesting. If this Rov could write it so I could understand exactly what he’s trying to say before trashing him, I’d appreciate it. If you could name the Rov, I’d appreciate it even more.Mods: can you pass on to me Yeshivish Rockstars email? Or is there a policy against that?
Sorry, there’s a policy against that.
FYI,
I posted about Igros at length on a previous thread that I believe RSO was on, and had no patience flogging an old horse.YR,
The Rebbe never said he’s a Navi.I love how everyone jumps on this sleeping thing, and always goes straight for the craziest possible explanation “he didn’t sleep for eight whole days?? Impossible!!”
Anyone who knows anything about the Rebbe would know that judging by his schedule alone, he never slept properly, and it’s not hard to imagine that on Sukkos he stayed up at night, as he often did during the week, and slept intermittently at other times. I don’t know if this legend is true, but it certainly could be.YR,
Please ask the Mods to send me an email address. Thanks.Non Political,
Look it up, the early Chassidim davened way way after Zman Tefilah.“There’s no debate that early Chassidim Davened late (after Zman Tefilla), and there’s absolutely nowhere in Shulchan Aruch which lets you daven late for the sake of Kavana”
True, and just like the Rebbe was Meyashev not sleeping in the Sukkah, I believe that the Minchas Elazar has a Tshuva justifying Chassidim davening late. If someone here can find the source, I’d greatly appreciate it.
“How do I know? 🙂”
Well you can give some clues…Username,
Do I know you?“Sorry, I won’t give out my details. Privacy is very important to me.”
One of the great things about Gmail is, that you can make any email address you like, and it takes about 30 seconds. If you seriously want to know everything I have to say, ask the mods to send me an email address that I can correspond with you on.
Thanks for the accolades and the respect you give my opinions, though it’s not really deserved. Out of thousands of Lubavitchers who could tell you the same things I have, מה’ מצעדי גבר כוננו and it was me who chanced upon this thread.
YR,
Thank you for bringing the Tshuva to my attention. It’s printed in Mishne Halochos Chelek Yud Zayin. I won’t comment on it before reading the entire Tshuva, but one thing worth mentioning is the tremendous respect he accords the Rebbe, (see the last few lines of the Tshuva) and him standing up for what he saw as a Bizayon to the Rebbe (and so do I for that matter) .YR,
Once this is posted you will see what I wrote earlier to you, offering to correspond with you directly if the Mods can facilitate that.According to our Mesorah, the Alter Rebbe was instructed to write SA HaRav for the benefit of ALL Chassidim, and therefore Minhag Chabad is usually not included in his Psokim, as anyone familiar with Minhag Chabad can attest to. You don’t need to look further that the Haaros of R. Berel Levin on the bottom of the page to see how often he brings down a conflicting Minhag.
If you read the Sicha, as you said you have, you will know that the Rebbes Shita is that our Minhag cannot be in conflict with Halacha, ever. Therefore, the Rebbe does as much as he can to resolve this apparent conflict.
“I know I’m going to get into BIG trouble for this one, but note that Sefer HaSichos 5699 was said by the Rayatz who, as I have said before, was very “creative” in telling us history.”
If I would say this about ANY Litvishe Godol, I’d be figuratively burned at the stake here.
“My biggest problem with the Sukkah Sicha – is that if one’s Rebbe is pattur from the mitzva, then all of the Chassidim are Patur. So if the Rebbe would be cold, then all chassidim in Hawaii don;t need to sleep?”
You are (perhaps not deliberately) misconstruing the Rebbes svarah, and also misunderstanding the point of the Sicha in general. If you wanted to leave your details with the Mods and they could forward them to me, I’d be happy to speak with you, because I really feel where you are coming from, especially after you mentioned Reb Avremel, who is a Tayere Chossid who I have great respect for.
Regarding HoRav Menashe Klein Z”L, I have the greatest respect for him, and all Lubavitchers I know, especially Rabbonim, hold him in the highest esteem. He was close with the Rebbe as well. I have to admit, that I haven’t seen the specific Tshuva you are referring to, I’d greatly appreciate if you could post the Mare Mokom.
RSO,
“Not necessarily. Tzaddik haámiti does not necessarily imply one individual in a generation.”
Read it again. It’s very clearly written in the singular Loshon, and that’s not an opinion or Hergesh, that’s fact. Tzaddik HoAmiti Shebador means exactly what it says. You can argue on me bringing this as a source, and the truth is, I wouldn’t necessarily bring Rav Nosson as a primary source, because I am not sufficiently familiar enough with his Torah, and it would be dishonest to pluck him out at random to prove a point, but here I’m trying to show that this idea is not exclusive to Lubavitch.While I like your flattery of me, I don’t think you need to put down CS. She has made many valid points, and has contributed much to this discussion. I don’t think that everything she is writing she believes to be empirical evidence, clearly much of it is anecdotal, (the YU story) and there’s no problem with the anecdotal, just don’t expect it to sway anyone’s strongly formed opinions. Also, if it wasn’t clear yet, The Yeshiva World doesn’t exactly hold YU in the greatest esteem, and neither does the Lubavitch world. ואין כאן מקומו.
“Because when it comes to kefira, you do have a group – only a minority but certainly a group – of lubavichers, such as SHY who is against that view. But the lack of tznius is pervasive in all the different streams.”
I disagree on both accounts. One, people like me aren’t a small minority in Lubavitch, and two, while I can’t comment too much on Tznius, it’s definitely not a pervasive issue among the kinds of people I associate with. The more Chassidishe crowd, Mishechistim included, don’t have the same issues in Tznuis as the more modern crowd does. But as Neville pointed out, this is a distraction to the topic at hand, and I don’t think it’s our place as men to discuss this on a public forum, for many reasons.
“I miss Sechel and Username. They were intelligent, and had reading comprehension”
Thanks, BTW, I’m still here.
“NO-ONE will ever consider arguing with the Rebbe in halacha, even in cases where he’s demonstrably wrong (ie sukkah et al).”
You don’t need to agree with the Rebbes justification of a long standing Minhag Chabad. The Rebbe didn’t make up this Minhag, the Rebbe merely justified it Halachically. I highly doubt that you even read what the Rebbe says about it in the original Sicha, not some nonsense on “Chabad Talk” .
(And here I should point out, that all your references to this Chabad Talk forum are irrelevant. I had never even heard of this forum before, and it hasn’t been active in years, and a cursory look at it will show you that it was primarily used by clueless BTs)
Also, Chabad weren’t the only ones not to sleep in the Sukkah, neither did Belz before the war. In a shmuess between Rav Shterenbuch of Antverpenn and the Satmar Rebbe of KJ, the latter says: “In Dzhikov one did not sleep in the Sukkah. If somebody happened to doze off in the Sukkah he would be awakened, so that he not transgress… They would wake him by saying: “Nu, Sukkah…”
But of course, if they aren’t Lubavitch, their Minhag doesn’t bother anyone…
Our Minhag of not sleeping in the Sukkah dates back to the Alter Rebbe, and the Mitteler Rebbe instructed Chassidim not to sleep in the Sukkah. (Sefer HaSichos 5699).
The reason given of why the Alter Rebbe was chozer on some Psokim later in his life in the Siddur is, because he originally tried to Paskin like the Mogen Avraham as often as possible, as seen in his Psokim in SA HaRav, but later in life he was cholek with several Psokim of the Mogen Avraham, one famous one is by Sof Zman Krias Shma, where in the SA he holds like the MGA, but in the Siddur he was chozer and Paskined like the GRA.
(Shu”t Divrei Nechemia, Shu”t Tzemach Tzedek)” I mistakenly assumed this was all Lubavitchers, but it is clearly not your camp”
Apology accepted. Though, all Lubavitchers I know of, even extreme Mishechistim study Gemara Leiyuna with all the standard Meforshim, and learn Yore Deah with the Nose Keilim as I described elsewhere.Tradition has it, that the Alter Rebbe wrote on all of Shulchan Aruch, and there was a fire as so often happened in those times, which burned much of his writing, including parts of the Shulchan Aruch HaRav, and a sefer entitled “Sefer Shel Tzaddikim”.
Regarding how we pasken when there’s variance between the Shulchan Aruch HaRav and the Piskei HaSiddur, much has been written about it, but in short, we Pasken like the Siddur, as it was written last.
For further reference, see Rav Chaim Noehs “Piskei HaSiddur”.YR,
I don’t know how long a generation lasts for. But I do know that people just a few years older than me remember and saw the Rebbe. Does a generation finish when the Rebbe is Nistalek? It obviously doesn’t go on forever, but being that there is no new Rebbe, it definitely continues for some time. I know what you will ask now, “Why didn’t the Rebbe appoint someone in his stead? Why didn’t Chabad appoint a new Rebbe?”
I can’t answer for the Rebbe, but I can tell you that the Rebbe had no children, and there was definitely no obvious worthy candidate, we have no one close to the Rebbes stature. The Rebbe did leave detailed instructions for after his passing, and instructed that Chassidim listen to Chassidishe Rabbonim and Vaadei Rabbonei Chabad be established in every community, among other Horaa’ors.
RSO,
It’s in Tikunei Zohar ס”ט.
Many Chassidishe Sforim understand it to be going on every person, and many understand it to be speaking about individual Tzaddikim. Reb Ahron HaGodol of Karlin mentions both aspects many times. I’ll quote here several times when Chassidishe Sforim understand it in a similar way Chassidus Chabad uses it:כתיב וידבר משה את מועדי י”י כו’. אמר. כי לשון מועדי הוא התגלות. ודיבור הוא לשון הנהגה. וזהו וידבר משה. הנהיג והכניס את מועד”י י”י. התגלות אלקות. אל בני ישראל. ואתפשטותא דמשה הוא בכל דרא ודרא. כי כל צדיק בדורו הוא בחינת משה והם מכניסים התגלות אלקות בכל רגל ורגל אל בני ישראל:
– Bais Ahron (Karlin)עוד נוכל לומר. שלח לך כו’ הלא זה מלא בכל הספרים אשר אתפשטותא דמשה בכל דרא ודרא והוא שורש של נשמות כל ישראל. והראיה כפי דאיתא שנולדו במצרים ששים רבוא בכרס אחד ומנו משה כי הוא כללות ששים רבוא ישראל. לכך א”ל הקב”ה שלח לך אנשים. היינו הנשמות הנבראים בזה העולם בכל עת מאז ועד עתה ועד שיהיה שלימות הגמור והם נתונים בתוך הגוף בזה העולם:
– Bais Ahronדנודע כי אתפשטותא דמשה הוא בכל דרא עד ששים רבוא דרי ובכל צדיק וצדיק יש בחי׳ משה ניצוץ הקדוש מנשמת משה רבינו ע״ה שמסייעו לעובד עבודתו יתברך
– Meor Einayim ( Chernobyl)So far, the astute reader would observe that all these sources and the above quoted Tanya would seem to point to multiple such figures in every generation, and indeed it does. However there is one single individual who stands above the rest, like Moshe Rabbeinu in his generation, and Mordechai HaTzaddik in his, and that is not to the exclusion of the other Tzaddikim in that generation.
To quote the Likkutei Halochos of Rav Nosson of Breslov:
וְאִתְפַּשְּׁטוּתָא דְּמֹשֶׁה בְּכָל דָּרָא וְדָרָא, כִּי מֹשֶׁה רַבֵּנוּ מִתְלַבֵּשׁ בְּכָל דּוֹר וָדוֹר בַּצַּדִּיק הָאֲמִתִּי שֶׁבַּדּוֹר.He clearly develops this concept into a single person in a generation.
Now, you don’t have to believe or like any of this, but it’s clearly not exclusive to Lubavitch.I can carry on in this vein for pages, but I’m not going to waste my time.
Sam,
You ask a good question, and that is a very difficult one, and far beyond the original scope of this discussion. In short, I personally consider the Rebbe to still be the Nosi HaDor (or whatever you like call it)I didn’t say it refers to him, I gave it as a source for the concept of there being a Nosi HaDor, because that’s what people here were asking. That said, I do believe the Rebbe is the Nosi of his Dor, as the Zohar says, there is an “Ispashtusa D’Moshe” in each and every generation, and I believe that Rebbe fit the bill, and was the Neshoma Klollis of his Dor, and that’s a concept elucidated in Tanya and Zohar.
רש”י במדבר כא, כא:
שמשה הוא ישראל וישראל הם משה, לומר לך שנשיא הדור הוא ככל הדור, כי הנשיא הוא הכל