screwdriverdelight

The question was, “does a man who calls women … have the temperament expected of a US president?” It was challenging his ability to execute his duties as president, no different than asking Dr. Carson about his lack of knowledge in foreign policy or when Ted Cruz was asked about calling Mitch <cConnel a liar.

LG, in what way were they harsher on Trump than the others? Most of them were challenged to defend their electibility and things they had previously opined.

Recognizing that hunger strikes cause this kind of reaction is a fact. And recognizing that fact was the basis of the answer to your question, which, if I may remind you, was:

If a prisoner wants to commit suicide by starving him/herself, why stop them?

I need no reminder. Where does my question indicate anything of the sort?

in reality they’re not dying for the cause but rather trying to scare their wardens into freeing them from jail.

Actually, in most cases not. In Bobby Sands case….

Actually, in most cases yes. But it’s a good thing you got in Bobby Sands again.

Your answer is that the arresting image of someone committing suicide in jail chokes up his buddies and the media, so rather than risk that terrible PR, the government force feeds him. Why don’t you cut all your pretty words out and write normally, and have your points driven across effectively?

Joseph: According to the shittos that suicide is permitted, by logical extension it would have to mean that there’s no chiyuv pikuach nefesh on one’s self, and it should be muttar to not eat, whereas other people are muzhar on lo sa’amod al dam raiecha and it would be prohibited.

Yekke2: Strangulation is doing something to him, which makes him unable to breathe, and hence dead. That’s very different from withholding his oxygen supply.

NE:

The question was why should Israel force feed them,

What is with your fixation on Israel? Where in the opening post does it say Israel?

If you’re wondering why people are so taken by hunger strikes, it is simply because if somebody is dying, passively, for a cause, people automatically take more attention in that cause, and/or feel that cause obviously is worth dying for, and is as such nobler, in some twisted way. We are not talking of rationality here, as PR never is, but of human psychology, particularly group psychology.

In all three of your posts, this the first time you wrote this. And it still begs wonder why intelligent people give in to perceptions of crazies instead of clearly and coherently stating their position, and pointing out that someone refusing to eat isn’t their fault. (As far as Israel is concerned, perhaps this isn’t so surprising; Israel rarely wins a common-sense debate. However, with other countries who don’t start off guilty until proven innocent, and also aren’t used to making a decision contrary to all reason, just for good PR, it’s astonishing that they get scared of a hunger strike.) Also, note that you say “that cause obviously is worth dying for” when in reality they’re not dying for the cause but rather trying to scare their wardens into freeing them from jail.

you have attempted above to poiont out inconsistencies in my reasoning that did not exist, but were simply due to you obviously not …even fully read my above posts.

Would you stop saying that already. I read all the posts fully.

Joseph: Who said anyone halachicly distinguishes between the two?

Poe’s law is the adage that without the correct emoticons or background information, parodies of extremism cannot successfully be distinguished from the sincere article.

What does being astounded by idiocy have to do with parodies? Why not use an emoticon?

NE: You seem to have understood my question specifically in regard to Israel, and with a “who cares what the rest of the world says” vein. Although it was indeed the recent Israeli news which prompted this thread, remember that hunger strikes are done worldwide, introduced, if I’m not mistaken, by Nelson Mandela. All countries give into this madness, even those who aren’t looking in the mirror at every fork. It starts, as you say, with “the image of a man starving to death voluntarily is an arresting one,” but doesn’t really explain anything. Powerful countries with grand armies and top-notch security suddenly surrender to…arresting images?

Recall the Margaret Thatcher days.

Yekke2, allow me to say just that you’re too dumb to remember that before you wrote

As I wrote before, it isn’t about Roidef or Nirdaf per se, it is about preventing him being oiver ?? ????.

and now somehow you understand that he’s both a rodeif and a nirdaf.

yekke2, I don’t know how you know that about taking away oxygen; whatever the case, it clearly says (.??? ??? ???? ??? ???? ???? (??????? ??. If you’re correct, you at best have a kushya, and the answer would probably be that anything which has an immediate effect isn’t a g’rama. (I think R’ Chayyim Ozeir says something like that; I don’t remember where.) Besides, our case concerns a person who isn’t eating, not a case where one is removing his food source.

I don’t have time to read NE’s post and your last post but I’ll definitely try to accommodate you later, you ostensibly obtuse, doubtlessly demented victim of a severe brain malady, void of intelligence, ignorant of your ignorance and ecstaticly erratic.

?? ????? ?????, in the theme of things:

I was aware your lunacy was based on the presumption that the prisoner is a Jew (because there’s no chiyuv to save a goy from a rodeif, and I assume there’s also no chiyuv ??????? ???????). I didn’t point this out, because I was busy trying to explain why you’re an idiot, and giving answers which apply in only some situations isn’t categorized as idiocy.

You didn’t make yourself very clear.

I understood that to mean because it was a passive way of killing rather than an active murder.

Sorry for the ambiguity. I said so because “not eating” isn’t murder, not because it’s a passive murder.

R’ Chayyim disagrees on Tosafos’s case, saying that that isn’t murder and says that even Tosafos is of that opinion. what Tosafos means is ?? ?????? a case of passive murder, it wouldn’t be yeihareig v’al ya’avor. And R’ Chayyim doesn’t say that in his opinion it wouldn’t be murder at all.

As for the next point about natural process, here I think you could call me an idiot, if you’re not worried about Poe, whoever he is. My point was that eating is a way to sustain one’s self; not eating is merely refraining from sustaining himself, whereas killing, be it passively or actively, is the immediate cause of death.

Here’s the Chazon Ish. (It’s the 4th one.)

??. ???? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??.

???? ???? ????? ???? ????? ???? ?????, ???? ?????? ?? ?????

????? ????? ??? ???????? ?? ??????, ??? ????.

Readable here: http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=39831&st=&pgnum=231&hilite=

[It’s not a perfect analogy, but it relates to Wolf’s logic.]

Joseph: You’re talking about what I said in regard to Sam 2’s lo sa’amod al dam rai’acha? My distinction was that giving someone food is enough to be considered that he isn’t standing idly by, watching his friend die. If the prisoner refuses the help, that’s his prerogative.

sorry if the insult sounded like a compliment–let me make it clearer: Have your head checked, because the cerebral cortex within seems to be malfunctioning.

Forgetting all factual details aside, what you said has nothing to do with the original question. If you meant that one must prevent someone from committing suicide in order to prevent him from being oveir ?? ????, say so without adding anything about a rodeif. (To which you’ll say ??”?, that part was unnecessary; you already alluded to such when you said you hijacked this thread.)

And as far as what you said: I’m not aware of anyone who says suicide is an issur of ?? ????. Secondly, even assuming it is, he wouldn’t be a rodeif–if there’s no nirdaf, there can’t be a rodeif. Thirdly, Wolf is correct. The Brisker Rov, and perhaps others, does indeed say there are two dinnim, but ???? ????? is definitely needed, as is evident from the ??? of ???? ???? ??????. Fourthly, there wouldn’t be a din to save him here–??? ????, someone stands on a roof and threatens to jump unless you give him 10,000 pounds, do you have to give it to him?

yekke2, have your head checked.

Goq, why does that make them martyrs? If I jump out the window in protest, am I a martyr?

My day doesn’t start with ????? any more than my shabbos does. Remember the week is circular as well.

(I daven ????? on ????? ??? before ????? on Sunday.)