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@nomesorah
I’m assuming you’re referring to Jim Crow not Slavery. The only difference between the north and south is that the south made it very difficult for blacks to vote and weren’t allowed to use the same water fountain. Other than that, whites in both areas made it difficult for Blacks to be upwardly mobile, using redlining and, yes, also using segregation (there is a old achool building thats a National Landmark in Hillburn, NY near Monsey, because that district didn’t desegregate until 1943).
N0mesorah
It wasn’t just in the south. I think there’s a lot of truth behind what the Conservatives say, that what the North did with its “de facto” segregation and general oppression was just as bad as what the south did dejure.
Oy vey Joseph, you’re not allowed to talk about that!
Smerel
Really? Is there affirmative action in housing? In schools (not counting higher education)? In the vast majority of businesses? In corporate boards? You can be upset about affirmative action without needing to exaggerate it.
Joseph, I don’t think your portrayal of American Jewish history is entirely accurate. Regardless, I am unconvinced that intergenerational wealth or lack thereof is a primary factor for the current socioeconomic status of a group. Even if a Black kid grows up in complete poverty, he still can get federal aid to get a college degree. If he doesn’t want to borrow, he can go to the army and get free college from there. (Something which many Blacks do).
However, historic oppression may be an important factor for the current sociological behavior of a group. There’s no doubt in my mind that thousands of years of being treated differently has created certain unique behaviors in Jews, and it would follow that thousands of years of being treated as racially inferior have created certain unique behaviors in Blacks. J.D. Vance discusses in his book about his family in Appalachia that the White people in Kentucky and Southern Ohio are suffering from the same exact hopelessness and complexes that Blacks are suffering from.
BTW, I think you would find the Moynihan Report interesting as it was written by a sociologist trying to uncover the factors of Black dysfunctionality before sociology was taken over by victomologists that believe that one can never blame the victim. Moynihan tries to find the source of the problem and he does a good job going through all possible reasons. (Although he does ignore how Blacks behaved in their native Africa [I could lose my job over thia but I’m referring to the s word] vs other populations, something which historians have ignored for the past century)
Btw, on an optimistic note and also because I’m shocked that I have never seen such a statistic before, did you know that 52% of Harlem children go to charter schools that gives them a much better chance of upward mobility?
Joseph
I don’t think it’s correct to compare the Black experience with ours. Jews that immigrated up to the 20s had to sign affidavits that they have jobs waiting for them and that they also had communal social nets including people that would vouch for them when they arrived. The Hungarian Jews that arrived after the holocaust, in addition to the above, received reparations from the Germans, unlike Blacks who are still waiting for their 40 acres and a mule.
Regarding the moetzes: You are probably right. I was hoping that wasn’t the case since I was upset by the lawsuit.
Regarding the other camps: The reason they are not fighting it is (a) they have no chances of winning (b) they acknowledge that the Governor has to make all these decisions based on many factors that many on this site are refusing to consider, and they agree with the governor that there’s no wrong decision. I am tired of the dumb “if this is allowed, why isn’t this allowed” arguments. Most sane people understand that there are different risks unique to every situation and if the Goyishe lobby respects the difficult situation that the Governor was in then good for them.
Regarding the other ministers – that was different. I thought they were wrong and acting like cavemen, however they weren’t saying that their blood was redder than everyone elses, to borrow secular Israel’s line for שביון בנטל.
Regarding if the AJCO will prevail: I don’t care if they would. We’ve had a messed up supreme court make messed up case law based on messed up legislation from a messed up Congress. The gap between what’s right and what’s legal is so wide.
You know what, maybe I’m wrong. Is agudah asking for Jewish camps to open or all camps?
I’m not the only one here that listens to WBAI?
We defended a guy in Florida who murdered a cop so we do operate that way. I still think that Hall’s comment is irrelevant. Just because someone is highly emotional and biased against Law Enforcement in his particular community doesn’t mean that he cannot comprehend with an outsiders view how Law Enforcemebt interacts with other communities.
Mr. Tuition, a mashal, imagine if a Jew cut a line at wherever, and when people start giving him dirty looks he replied oh as an Orthodox Jew I cut the line as a “religious right”, what do you think would happen?
Chaim Schulem:
“which is a mess that continues to grow” – It’s dichotomous to say that a growing mess is caused by a decreasing racism.
It’s true that there are lingering effects of past discrimination and that vicious cycles of poverty exist. That being said, it’s very difficult to argue that it’s a primary factor in today’s racial disparities. From 1950 to today, America has become far less racist by banning segregation, redlining and workplace discrimination, yet Blacks are worse off today with both the wealth gap and the income gap widening. In addition, other ethinic groups have started off with no capital in their communities and still achieved equity.
I do agree with you if you’re talking about the sociological effects that past racism had on the hopelessness and inferiority complex within the Black community.
Was the Agudah advised before their lawsuit by the moetzes? Isn’t it cognizant of the fact that it’s promoting anti-Semitic stereotypes that there are two sets of rules, one for us and one for everybody else? And another stereotype that says we Jews can get away with anything by crying religion?
Not understanding what you mean by centralized
I think a disturbance just happened in the time-space continuum.
@ubiquitin
My theoretical question just became למעשה. Would you agree with the Change.org petition to cancel the infamous french kibg Louis who directed the שריפת התלמוד and rename St Louis, Missouri?Of course what we both are not saying out loud is that frum people are terrible voters and if Thomas Jefferson or any of the other founding fathers saw us, they would exclude us from voting. So this conversation is a non starter.
And, yes. I would love to live in the utopian world you described. Seriously.Dear n0,
(3) I feel like that’s a false dichotomy. I think askanim should “educate” the masses on who is running; they shouldn’t be silent but neither should they be acting like a bunch of Mafioso. For example, There should be ads allowed from all candidates on our platforms, our media should interview all candidates, and we should have op-eds analyzing the candidates. On (2) we like comparing ourselves to blacks. ( And I am made to feel like an Uncle Tom every time I vote independently). However, in all white areas besides Urban or Appalachia the numbers are on average 60/40. So while everyone has their biases, most demographic areas in America are intelligent enough that every election cycle it looks a little different because individuals are making individual decisions. (1) i didn’t get what your’e saying. Regardless, i didn’t mean to emphasize on what the askonim are receiving in exchange for the votes. I just meant this whole idea of “delivering the votes” sounds like something out of Tammany Hall.I don’t know if this is applicable in Brooklyn, but We have too much of a bloc vote, especially in the suburbs: (1) the optics of a corrupt deal between 5 unknown askanim and a politician (“i could get you 20k votes if you just give me xyz”) is a chillul hashem. (2) The fact that many of us have no idea what kind of people we’re voting for and just vote for whatever the askonim say gives us a bad name. (3) a bloc vote automatically creates an anti-Orthodox backlash; if 40% of voters will vote with A no matter what, B has no option but to incite the other 60% to vote in a block; in a perfect world, we would encourage all politicians running to get as much frum votes as possible and we would encourage all frum voters to vote intelligently.
Am I the only one that sees a connection between whites “accidentally” killing their slaves during “moderate corrections” in 1860 and the white descendants who are now police offers (modern day slave overseers) executing Blacks for drunk driving?
There’s a statue of George Washington in London’s Trafalgar Square.
What chaos? And history never repeats itself, regardless.
According to Gorsuch’s flawed Office Xmas Party sevarah, if I show up to work wearing blackface and get fired, can I sue them because had I been Black they wouldn’t have cared?
You can’t fix the world. You can educate the people around you and that might create a ripple effect. Other than that, the only way to mitigate this Chillul Hashem is by picking up garbage in parks. One of my favorite hobbies is throwing away someone’s garbage right after they dropped it. (Hopefully it makes them feel stupid and not me)
@Joseph
What would you need to prove discrimination? They will just say they didn’t like you for other reasons. And this is when they made some facial expression or comment about your religious appearances. What if they made no expression or comment at all? Then there’s definitely no way of suing them. Please educate me.@someone in monsey
Really? If you were to go to a job interview and get the feeling afterward that they are not interested in you because you’re frum, is there any way you can sue the person? Of course not. If a Black person knows that his resume is much less likely to get a call back, there’s no legal remedy for that but it’s still systemic racism.This, of course, doesn’t mean that these phenomena exist. You would have to look at empirical data for that, and the evidence is mixed.
Why is it absurd? The Democrats are attacking all white people including themselves. And you only included higher education institutions in your list. I don’t think anyone was accusing higher education of being systemically racist. Corporations, financial institutions, small businesses, Law enforcement officials, policy makers, etc are more Republican. That’s who people are accusing.
I was waiting for this, apparently theyre going after Julis Caesar statues in Belgium.
Did New York State really make it a hate crime to call the police that a “black person is acting suspicious etc.”?
Sorry. #1 – i understand you’re argument to be that traitors should not be glorified – regardless if the rebellion was justified. Which is weird because until three years ago you didn’t feel this way. In fact, Mrs. Pelosi, who I believe is saying this argument, her own father put up a Gen. Lee statue in Baltimore (according to Conservative media). And like I’ve written elsewhere, you don’t have a problem glorifying John Brown or Geronimo. So let’s stop pretending we have an issue with traitors at large. The claim that we always were upset about these “traitors” but we shut our mouths for the sake of peace also doesn’t make sense. Besides, what happened three years ago that we stopped caring about peace? #5 (1) kj wasn’t a signatory to the Constitution. Virginia was. (2) And they felt that the USA was becoming unconstitutional. Because the Constitution recognized slaves as property of their owners and the north wanted to be “mafkir” them. (3) And back then some people understood that it would be legal for a state to secede with a legislative vote. After 1869, this became illegal. #8 the majority of Americans wanted to “live and let live” after the secession. But Lincoln wanted his war, so he provoked South Carolina in attacking Ft Sumter. So yes, he might have had the legal authority to squash the rebellion but he didn’t have the populace on his side.
Rav belsky allowed reading the Odyssey too?
Rebyidd23 is actually pointing to something onteresting that the reason why so many people are calling for the destruction of staturss is because statues are nit a thin anymore
@rebyidd23
What would be the point of putting up statues of new people if they would only last twenty years when they will be knocked down to make way for the next generation’s statues?@Joseph since according to halacha there is no need to destroy avodah zarah which was battul so i do feel a sense of nostalgia to a building of architectural importance. And I was upset. I just don’t think using History is a good argument against a religious reason to destroy it.
@charlie hall
1. Did your ancestors fight because they owned slaves that they didn’t want to give up? I doubt it. Most soldiers that fought for the Confederacy had little or nothing to do with the slavery industry (and they definitely didn’t have black house slaves)
2. I am not offended by your ad hominem attacks on me; it’s a bit upsetting though to see people that are so narcissistic about their grandparents. But I guess your schooling taught you those values; another reason why liberal education is so damaging.
3. I already went through why the treason line doesn’t make any sense. You can try to counter argue my reasons but repeating the same line over and over again won’t help you.
@Joseph
I specifically wrote that I do not hold it against ISIS for destroying the Roman temples at Tadmura. I wasn’t clear enough?
@Ubiquitin
If they had a bust of Mussolini in the Museum of On Time Train Running i wouldnt have a problem with it.Regarding the Arch of Titus
1. I dont think History is a reason to keep something which shouldn’t be there. Its almost as if you are saying that there is a statute of limitations to memorializing evil.
2. True. You can apply this to Confederate statues as well (to an extent). But I don’t want to go back there.
3. I agree.I would want to look at Virginia’s articles more than what a deepnsouth state would write. But regardless, what really happened isn’t so important. They’re not necessarily memorializing the truth. Even if they made up their myths on the spot to whitewash what they really fought for, I don’t think you have a right to control their thoughts. We also believe in things which social scientists think are rooted in illiberalism.
Back to the important stuff, you’re leaving a wide range between FDR and Mussolini but I get the idea.
Would you support knocking down the Arch of Titus? (And dont say History I dont care for History and I didnt care for History when ISIS destroyed the Roman temples at Palmyra/Tadmur.)
I think we basically covered all bases in our debate, so we don’t have to turn this into an endless Ubiqituin loop. If I have the time to do it, I will try to delve deeper in the “myth” of the Lost Cause, intent of the statue builders etc. Regardless, my main point was that the people who built the statues and especially those who want to maintain them are not doing so out of white supremacy or any evil intentions. For them it represents something good.
Interestingly, there were many people in history whos day job was to be great personalities and on the side perswcuted the Jews. I dont think their statues should be removed either for the same reason. This includes henry ford, that pilot in the 20s, president grant (jk) Pompeii etc. The anti communists in the Ukraine. I’m waiting for Ubiqition to suport me and som1 to suport me.
I wasnt alive then but I think that when Nixon won the election in the fall everyone realized that it was all hype and that America at large including the youth was not with the protestors. We’re all waiting to see if the same thing will happen this fall.
@ ubiquitin I agree. This Condoleezza Rice reason to keep monuments makes no sense and is obviously an excuse to keep monuments that they cant explain intellectually why they have a problem with it coming down. Another absurd reason is that it will be a slippery slope.
Cancel Culture would be the equivalent of Mishna Brurah followers banning the Arukh Hashulhan
I care.