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“Moreover, one cannot know how many secular Jews become observant and what percentages go to different groups – and whether they stay with a certain group or move on to another stream (this can happen when they initially become very machmir and then stabilize in the middle).”
Its difficult. But there are demographic studies all the time. They give a sense — i think. The MO study did a decent job.
The other way — of course — is you do a small study and extrapolate from the numbers.
A poster above said that “MO are leaving in droves”. I dont know how many MOS are in a “drove” but that aside — I am curious about the “drop out” numbers and even more curious about what drop out means.
“MrSarah, there is actually movement between different streams of Orthodoxy. There are even organizations in both the US and Israel that counsel people who were brought up in communities that are inappropriate for them but do not want to stop keeping mitzvot.”
I have seen this a bit. Makom, i believe is one. It makes sense to me.
The Nishma study was vague about the drop out rate from MO. In fairness, it did not really address it. I dont know if i would call it droves. I was thinking anecdotally in my shul — and i would say 1 in 15? I really dont know. I do know that it is not like every family has one kid who is no longer orthodox.
The numbers of drop outs based on Pew Study were much greater — especially in older demographics. I think thats because the definition of Orthodoxy was much broader 50 years ago.
I
“Their army?” Maybe you should put some blood on the door post so that “they” dont protect “you.”
Just a clarification. Ms. SL and Mr. SL share a sign in. Mr. SL has been writing these posts. I dont know exactly why thats important — but maybe gender figures into some of the opinions — and i didnt want to mislead. Mr. SL may get his own sign in — he may call it MrSarahLevine. Well see.
Neville wrote:
“They have wealthy family and/or sponsors in the US who do the dirty work (i.e. the kind of jobs you mentioned). I don’t want to say that the dynamic of having some people be full time learners and some people be balhabatim who sponsor leaning is inherently wrong (although I know the MO disagrees with it, I can see both sides). It’s only natural that the balhabatish side of the community would reside in the country with the better economy, the US, and the learning side of the community would reside in the country that’s a welfare state.”
Answer. I was afraid that you would say that. As i tell my kids, “that is not a plan, it is a hope.” My question remains. How do they expect the society to survive without a real middle class, with increasing poverty and without a military defense. One of R. Bombach’s arguments in starting his school is that 60% (I think, he said) of people in Beitar live in poverty — for no reason.
With regard to the college discussion — i think we are talking past each other. If the question is Binghamton/Maryland versus YU — i think there is no question that YU provides a Jewish community much stronger than any other place. (That is not to say some kids in the MO community do not do well at out of town secular schools — but they are generally not places of religious growth. There are a good amount of kids who become closer to Judaism on campus but that is a different story). If you are saying Brooklyn/Queens (and learning) vs. YU — or Touro at night — i think that is a matter of personal preference. It allows kids to live at home — and real continue their Hs life. (For my perspective on this — see my original post about the difference between MO and Yeshiva who either wander off the derech or leave orthodoxy).
It is Time for Truth wrote.
“Isn’t it a tragedy to reduced to be subservient to a state ?! Should we have more to offer For the world?!It’s not overly parochial?(Many secular used to claim this as well ) that’s all we are?!
and then
“Those who For Whom The State- D’etat More so the people
become their raison d’etre in sincerity fine there’s what to work with
Wouldn’t it however a tragedy of global dimensions if we exchange the Ends for the means ? raison d’tat”MrSL answers:
Again, truly truly, you operate at a different realm. I have no training in philosophy — although I did take one course in YU with the late great Rabbi Dr. Walter Wurzburger, ztz’l in Ethics (which as i found out did not have anything to do with Ethics, as I understood it). When he showed me my grade in the course — which i believe was B (perhaps a B+) — he told me — “Here is your grade. Dont tell anyone.”
That being said, I think what you are doing is what i complained about earlier. You are imputing to me and others the Zionism of others. Without any evidence whatsoever, I would suggest that even secular Israelis view their Zionism (or “nationalism”, if you prefer) in some religious framework. Yossi Klein HaLevi in a talk that I went to on Yom Yerushalyim two years ago argued that after 1967 it was clear that the country was now a “religious” country — and would continue to be so. He obviously didnt mean that everyone was going to be Shomer shabbat etc, but a majority now viewed the country as one that was entwined with the religion. The communists are gone. The kibbutzim (at least as they once were) — were gone. Even though i can make a pretty good argument for continuing secular zionism and that it is indeed the only hope for non orthodox jewish survival — I dont believe that your criticism is valid.
Ok… a lot of fish to fry. Here we go:
1. “REITS leans Center/ Right-of-center
That is why much of left of center MO disparage it As little than ‘an orthodox Day School’”RIETS and YU are more or less the same. The shiurim do not change. Meaning you can be in the shiur with R. Willig or R. Schechter or R. Twersky and be in the college or in semicha. I do agree that left of center MO seem to believe its too frum. Even in the non Yeshiva Program — the rabbanim are right. The kids may be less committed. I would not say they are “left” though.
2. “There an estimated 14 million Jews in the world with plenty of financial resources bl”‘h
how many Charedim are there ? a few hundred thousand bl”‘h? there’s so much That ought to be accomplished.”Ans: The Chareidim are on the way to being a majority in Israel. When that happens — what happens to the army? What happens to the economy? No supernatural answers. The answer is that they have to get educated and help. This is no longer the 400 bochurim that Ben Gurion exempted. I have not yet to hear a serious answer — from anyone.
3. “the maskilim made a play in which a Proto Jewish Army was waiting to fight
kohen Announced out the verses To all those Fall within the rubric of the categories [ including fear of sin] to go home eventually There’s only two or four [depends on your version] left.”Ans. I am not bright enough or well read enough to understand your comment. So — Ill answer something totally off point. The Charedim (i apologize for painting in a broad stroke) — are backward looking. (Not backwards). They tend to look at the past as the paradigm for the future (e.g. yeridat ha’dorot and the like). Thus, they still argue haskalah and Zionism. Yes, classical Zionism was anti-religious or a-religious. That’s gone. I am sure you have been to Israel and noted that even in secular cities — there are many people with kippot. Kosher restaurants. Soccer is played mostly (but not entirely) on Sat night or Sunday night. (Beitar does not play home or away on Shabbat). They look at the army as it was 75 years ago — where there was a movement to have separate religious and non-religious armies (fought against by R. Goren and Ben Gurion, I believe). The Charedim have an obligation to serve in the military (in some fashion) — which they owe the other people and the country. I am okay for now — if they acknowledge that and then figure out a way to serve. (My son, btw, served in Netzach).
4.What does academic exposure have to do with army service? Besides for yeshivot tichniyot there are many programs available for people to go to college. I know quite a few boys who have no secular education now learning to be lawyers, and psychologists.
“I know quite a few boys who have no secular education now learning to be lawyers, and psychologists.”
Statistically insignificant. There was one in grad school with me. He was brilliant and the exception. In Israel, it is very hard. How many Israeli born Charedi doctors are there, lawyers, engineers? Again, stastically insignificant. That being said, “amry service” and “academic exposure” are different. I agree.
Mammele wrote: (I remember hearing Lipa Shmelczer mention how a professor had to teach him to start his emails with “Dear Professor”, he would just get straight to the point.)
Ans: Thank you for that. Very funny.
Neville: “YU has a track record of peer-pressuring people into being less frum.”
Ans: Thanks for agreeing with me on most. I do not agree with you on this at all. My view is that this not true at all. (We are a “YU Family”). I think you can make an argument that people who are strong religiously, come out the same; those who are weaker committment wise — come out the same. The “Yeshiva” part of YU is pretty frum. There is maybe one, marginally “left wing” Magid Shiur there. The rest, R. Schechter, Willig, Simon, Sobolofsky, etc while philosophically religious zionists (and perhaps adherents to some iteration of Torah u Mada) are in all other respects “right wing.” Now, there are students there — for all sorts of reasons — who are not all the frum. I dont get the impression — for the most part that its even ideological. I am not sure where the allegation of “peer pressure” comes from. I assume that you can associate with a group that is not that religious. I dont think it comes from the institution.
Shopping: “More and more bochurim are getting a proper education, as the rise of the yeshivot techinoyot, a Yeshivah hIGH School that does bagruyot.”
Answer: I am not sure its a statistically significant number. I have no idea. R. Bombach and others a fighting the fight — but i cannot imagine that it is anything that will make a short term difference. DIGRESSION WARNING: As an aside — i dont understand the Israeli Charedi vision. Why is it acceptable to have a society where you cannot have — from your own community — doctors, lawyers, accountant, and engineers? Isnt poverty inevitable in those circumstances? Where will these professionals come from? If the Charedim become 50% of the population — how can they avoid the army en masse? What is the plan/thought on how this will work? Someone in the community must have really thought about this. Right?
SL613:
“I think that academic exposure is more important.”
What do you mean by that? It’s important to me exposed to knowledge?ANSWER” My point…I dont think being aware of movies and pop music or sports is important. TV adds nothing. Sports adds little. However, the lack of a secular education (math and writing and even reading) is important — and it is not emphasized in all circles. in Israel, in the charedi world it is not emphasized at all for the most part. I think that even history and literature adds to a person. (There was a recent article — AMI i think about Rav Steinsaltz. They interviewed his son. HIs son said that they were expected as children to read. Two or Three books at a time. They werent expected to excel academically necessary but his father wanted to make sure they read (I think James Joyce, and other “classics”, as it were).
“There is a certain bluntness or agressiveness that i see in the charedi world (which is accepted there) that doesnt fit in the outside world. I could be wrong totally — but I see it on occassion”
There’s people everywhere in any society that can be blunt and aggressive. There’s many people with undiagnosed behavioral issues, mental disorders, and people who fall under the Autistic Spectrum who all can have tendencies to act that way.
I’m not sure what your point is. Do you think Bais Yaakovs teach young girls to be blunt?
ANSWER: I knew i should not have written this. I looked back at what i wrote – and I apologize. There is a different way of speaking — especially amongst men in the Yeshiva World. (It could be a “language thing” but i think its cultural). I cannot describe it. I see it. Its different and its not the way that the wolrd at large communicates. I cant do better than that. I apologize. Maybe if someone knows what im talking about they can help me. If not — ill just take it that im wrong. It does happen time to time. 🙂
Thanks so much for your responses. Ill try my best.
1.”You left out the most interesting tidbit many of us want to know. What percentage of kids in your world would you guess (since you didn’t conduct any studies…) become OTD?”
First, I would refer you to:
Link removed
Second, if you look at page 9 of the survey — it talks about kids becoming more or less observant than their parents. It doesnt talk about OTD. (Meaning, less observant can mean “not covering their hair” or not learning. So i dont know.). I would say that the Open Orthodox report that half their kids are LESS observant than they are. Pageg 34 of the survey indicates that OO and left wing modern orthodox have a higher number of OTD.
Third, anecdotally, in my community — its really hard to tell. Of my friends, i dont see it too often but i would not think that 1 out of 10, or 2 out of 10 — is off the mark. Our shul, on Yom Tov has a lot of grandkids running around with peyot though and sons/son in laws with hats. I guess the kids that are OTD are not there. (Also — i think — and this is just my opinion — as the “kids” become 26, 27 and older — and are not married — there observance wanes. Some, if they are in NY — will continue to be in the UWS type community but others also drift away).
2.And what percentage attend college, since you mentioned that’s where you lose them to Yiddishkeit? Additionally, is YU just as risky as any mainstream/ non Jewish college?
Almost ALL attend college. Many attend YU and Touro. YU and Touro are not nearly as “risky” as non Jewish Colleges but then again its a self selecting group. (I went to YU — i know the good and the not so good). Many of the kids CHOOSE to go to YU — so if you are already electing to go to YU, you are in a much different group than is going to Maryland, Rutgers or Binghamton. (My son wanted to go to Binghamton and we said no. So he learned in Israel for 2 years and joined the IDF and stayed in iSrael. (May he didnt like our decision). He is dati leumi/ shomer shabbat and his wife covers her hair. (Just so you can visualize). I went to an IVY league grad school. There were kids there who were very committed to Judaism and learned constantly. But others went to the school in order to drift away and did.
3. how about all those who was still wearing kipot Or the like
going through the motions In an artificial way but that’s about it?There are many. Some who wear shreimels and hats. For some, emunah is easy. For others, practice is easy. I have never had a problem with kashrus or shabbos — or ever considered not doing either. Emunah is challenging.
4. “They get all their cues From Spirit destroying Society.”
Sorry — i didnt undersand this one.
SL613
To Shopping 613:
I am not sure i understand your post.
First, i dont think a child needs internet or TV. I dont think that pop-cultural exposure is important. I think that academic exposure is more important. I think that understanding others is also important. Do i think its important for kids to be aware of Taylor Swift? No, I dont.
Second, of course, kids learn things by osmosis. I get that.
Third, my point is — and this will sound a bit obnoxious but is not meant to be in the least. I think learning how to “talk” in the outside world may be lost. I cant express it correctly, but there is a certain bluntness or agressiveness that i see in the charedi world (which is accepted there) that doesnt fit in the outside world. I could be wrong totally — but I see it on occassion. I dont think its mean spirited — but perhaps just cultural. I really dont know….and maybe i am just imagining it. Completely possible.)
SL
I am responding to the OP.
I am in the modern community. YU. TV. Internet.
Just so you can have a window into who is writing: One kid is Charedi (married). One kid is Neo-Chasidic (in Yeshiva). One kid is modern (married). And two in HS. (The non HS all live in Israel).
I dont think that there is anything wrong with shielding or sheltering your kids. ALL parents, of all religions to so to a certain extent. Your “line” may be different than my line but we both have limits. This also changes with age. We treat little kids differently than teenagers. The main quesetion is what do you do when the shelter fails. (There are documentaries — you can find on YouTube that a Chasidic kids go to the Museum of Natural HIstory and is ill equiped to deal with the subject of dinasours. For me — there is nothing that we cannot deal with. With my kids — i told them all the answers i could think of ).
What i wonder about — and dont know — is the following. It seems to me that when the kids in the Yeshiva community wander away from the life style — they turn to a harsher, non-normative lifestyle. (Go on Facebook — and find a kid you know who is OTD — and see all their friends named Faygie and Blumie with pink hair and tatoos). I would guess that in the Yeshiva world it is a binary decision — yes or no. (Obviously, I am aware of “modern yeshivish”).
In the modern community — we lose our kids to college campuses — where their observance lessens or disappears. They may come back to the community at some point and be marginally connected or not at all.
Again — i have not done the study so this is purely anecdotal.
Perhaps, if the Yeshiva world — instead of sheltering their kids from the outside world, taught their kids how to engage it (or at least deal with it) — they would be better off. I dont know. (I certainly feel strongly that the Yeshiva world should educate their children so that they can support themselves in middle class jobs, law, medicine, accounting, engingeering. It seems to be a bigger problem in the Israeli world and the Chassisdic World).
A little rambling … for that i apologize.
I think someone else pointed out the “real question”. In this case it appears that the children listen to Non Jewish Music. The question wasnt should I MAKE my children listen to non jewish music. (I assumed — from the beginning that NJM meant 2018 — can i say that — pop/rock/hiphop music). The question is once your kids listen to the music what do you do? Obviously, that question is not answerable in a general way. I tried to teach my kids that just like with non-jewish books — there is appropriate and inappropriate; and with art — there is appropriate and inappropriate — music is no different. Dont we teach kids to make choices and differentiate all the time?
Regarding the “editor’s note” on my post regarding R. Marc Angel where he says “He is not Orthodox. He is open orthodox.” Well — he didnt used to be. 🙂
edited
I admit that thats pure conjecture ….
which is why it is better left unsaid
YYTZ: To answer your question, in Issue 12 of Conversations R. Marc Angel wrote: “4. Married women need not cover their hair, as long as their hair is maintained in a modest style. The wearing of wigs does not constitute a proper hair-covering for those married women who wish to cover their hair. Rather, such women should wear hats or other head coverings that actually cover their hair.” The article is available on line.
He is not Orthodox. He is Open Orthodox.
Avi K: To your point — in the NY metropolitan area i do not believe there are many modern orthodox shuls left with non orthodox membership. To be sure there are some — but its rare. Its also rare (at least with respect to Ashekenazim) for non orthodox to send to orthodox days schools. (NYC may be an exception). Out of town — in New England — the local day school was almost all non orthodox…not any more.
DosYochid: First, my argument is that “ol” mitzvot means acceptance of mitzvot. You cant say that 1 of the mitzvot is not from Hashem. I guess my problem is does a convert have to go to you personally to find out what their observance should be. That was my original point? Is Cholov Yisroel on the list? Yoshon? Sheitels? No Sheitels? There are some modern orthodox rabbanim who in print — have basically allowed not covering the hair. As an aside, i know personally of a case where a charedi rov told someone a married lady not to cover her hair for shalom bayit reasons. If that was a d’orayta — he could never have poskened that way. And is your argument that a married woman who keeps shabbat but doesnt cover their hair is disqualified? Or a woman who re-heats food in a way that YOU dont approve but follows a daas yachid (sorry — couldnt resist) — is also out. As Rodney Dangerfield once said, “tough crowd.”
Neville: I totally agree with your statement that “tznius is totally off the radar” in certain places. As my kids would say, “its not a thing.”
I’d say that 90% of married women in my shul DO cover their hair.
Is your shul representative of all of Modern Orthodoxy.
I dont think 90% is representative of Modern Orthodox as a whole in the US. (Obviously, its ascertainable — and I am just guessing). There are definitely shuls in Bergenfield/Teaneck/Edison where it is 90% (if not slightly higher).
I truly hope you’re a troll account created by someone trying to make the modern orthodoxy look bad.
I don’t think I’ve ever found myself defending the MO in the CR, but MO Rabbis don’t actually say that hair covering isn’t the halachah. They may turn the blind eye while 90% of their congregants act that way, but please don’t say hair covering is the same thing as keeping Cholov Yisroel. I want to win in an argument with the MO, but not like this. There’s no honor in this.
On a side note, what she said about cold dishes is correct. I think there’s a tendency of some MO people to eat even hot food off of treif utensils if the food itself is kosher (not saying this is mainstream). I don’t want to derail this thread too much though.
1. Not a troll. Not Sarah Levine either…but not a troll.
2. Modern Orthodox.
3. If i am guilty of anything — its poor writing.
4. Most modern orthodox rabbis require married women to cover their hair — but certainly not all. And, as you observed, many modern orthodox women do not cover their hair (for whatever reason). My point was that if a convert joins the MO — and follows what many women do — she shouldnt be disqualified as a convert.
5. Now — quoting only myself — heating hot kosher food off trief dishes (assuming as we do that the dishes have not been used for 24 hours — mei-ikar ha din — doesnt make the food treif). I dont know anyone in my community who does that — and I dont.
6. The point of my post was (I hoped) that generally we assume acceptance of Torah as the standard for conversion — as exhibited (or proven by) observance of Shabbat, kashrut and taharat hamishpacha. If we are going to look into EXACTLY how someone keeps those — which was the point of my examples — then accepting any converts becomes very difficult.It took me a while to get to a post i liked — but this one i did — because while somewhat obnoxious — it is interesting. In part:
“One can’t complain that their converts act like the rest of the “modern orthodox” community, and that community tends to have very “creative” interpretations of halacha (which allows them to eat kosher ingredients prepared on cold non-kosher utensils, participating in sports as long as one lets a non-Jew handle the money, carrying in a Karmelis, dressing in manners that frum Jews find objectionable, etc.). One doesn’t expect Ivanka Trump to be frumer than her family’s rabbi, and especially, one doesn’t expect her to be frumer than her husband.”
First, I am modern orthodox (or at least some strain of that). I agree that it is clear that Modern Orthodox converts are going to be modern orthodox. Second, the halacha require fealty and allegiance to halacha — not necessarily 100% observance. GASP? Of course thats true. Is chalav yisroel required? Yoshon? Hair covering? Etc. Do i have to ask all of you? And you are right, are all modern orthodox gerim (even those many who went through “Frum” batei din — invalid. Uh….no. Third, I dont believe all of the interpretations above are “creative.” Cold utensils etc…. thats the halacha. Benyomo/aino ben yomo — halacha. Not sure who allows carrying in a karmelis without an eruv. I am not sure what the sports example is? Going to games on shabbos? Who paskened its ok? Sometimes — people get asked questions — how should i do this, if I am gonig to do this. Very different.