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🙂 This thread should definitely win some sort of prize…
Shkoyach,
“Mechila Sarah and GMAB?”
Of course.
Shoymer,
I agree. Truth is stranger than fiction sometimes.
Sorry, Mariner, but your “expertise” apparently has its limits, as evidenced by your posting. The “hospital” reference was most amusing.
More importantly, my gentle advice is to ask your LOR if it is permitted to advise others who use a Shomer Shabbos company to check out “others”. Although I am very careful to use Jewish shops/companies whenever possible, it is extraordinarily rare to find an Observant Jew who deliberately “informs” others that evangelical companies might be a better place, without having been asked. Aside from the fact that I don’t believe it is possible to be more pleasant, courteous, and professional than Yeshivanet.
B”H, this abhorrent behavior is a rarity in Observant Jewry.
And to preempt your knee-jerk response, no, I am not “related” to the crew at Yeshivanet, nor know them on a personal or social level. This has provided another dimension, though, of the dangers internet pose to some impulsive, not-yet-wise individuals.
noitallmr,
I do not agree. Now, no need to cry over your keyboard- this is not a direct attack. But, I found all 6 right away, and I can state with absolute certainty that I am not a genius. No need for me to get personal here and provide evidence of my less than genius intellect, but trust me on that one.
GMAB,
I accepted the accusation against you as well. Please forgive me.
I forgive you.
shkoyach,
Do you normally insert yourself into others’ conversations in order to convey the exceedingly important message of “grow up”?
Your neighbors and colleagues must really respect that. Courtesy at its finest.
Just curious.
Mariner,
I think it was Robert Frost who said drink deeply, or drink not at all. This means, you sound silly when you type without some of the pertinent facts.
I have been using Yeshivanet for a number of years.
1. Yeshivanet has NEVER blocked something that should not have been blocked. The blocking service is personally handled, and not done via keywords. Each site is separately requested, and then opened to one’s permanent account.
2. The crew at Yeshivanet is extraordinarily courteous, professional, and pleasant.
3. The fact that you think Yeshivanet would block a hospital or similar site, or that you appear to think that Yeshivanet works as a filtering service similar to Koshernet and the like, evidences your astounding ignorance.
4. Your ignorance is not your fault- no one knows everything. It is helpful, though, to be cognizant of this truism, to curb impulsivity and other unpleasant things.
Well then, it’s up to YWN to take the next step and clarify this. I don’t feel comfortable posting opinions that may be viewed as the rantings of someone afflicted with multiple personality disorder.
Maybe it’s my turn now to receive a Brachah?
Sammyjoe,
The thought occurred to me as well, but I dismissed it as too farfetched. Yes, I do use Yeshivanet! I dismissed the thought for two reasons:
1. I have my own modem connection to Yeshivanet- does it make sense that all Yeshivanet customers use the same connection?!
2. GMAB’s positions are usually more left-leaning and liberal. It is difficult to imagine that a more liberal individual would deem it important to put this type of safeguard on technology, which is more characteristic of right-leaning individuals.
However…I recall that Joseph once posted a link to an article, and GMAB responded by asking what the article said. I too, of course, could not read the article, as Yeshivanet connections do not allow on-the-spot access- every site needs to be pre-requested. It is a wonderful service, and extremely efficient. When I read GMAB’s response, I thought, “Does he/she have Yeshivanet too?!”. Perhaps I over generalize, and should not have thought that a strongly liberal and left-leaning approach is incongruent with extra computer safeguards.
Well, GMAB, do you? You mentioned that you live in Miami- does Yeshivanet really service Florida? And do we have to have Yeshivanet submit signed affidavits that we are separate people?
This story is getting even more strange…
Mariner, I completely agree. As far as I know, there is ONE IP address per computer. I do NOT use dialup, and I am the ONLY user on my computer. If you reread my posts above, you will see that I stated exactly what you assert in yours.
Jewishfeminist02 and Joseph, thank you; it does decrease my frustration a little bit. I won’t post a comment on the thread’s topic because I would feel ridiculous doing so: Is the comment coming from Sarah? GMAB? Someone else?
“Why don’t you check the e-mail address that the screen names were registered under?”
GMAB, an individual can have multiple email addresses, but one IP per computer, as far as I know. Checking email addresses does not help. And I am the ONLY user on my computer, so if my IP address is appearing under another screen name, there are either ghosts hovering over my keyboard or YW IS MAKING A MISTAKE.
For the record…drumroll…this is the very first time GMAB and I agree: I too feel hurt and upset.
All I can say is this: I must deserve this for some reason. I am NOT GMAB, and have no idea why you (Moderator) insist on humiliating me in this manner. The IP addresses is not a difficult thing to check- simply check them now (and check SarahB’s IP address too), and you will see that you are mistaken.
In any case, since my credibility has been completely destroyed here by an unwillingness to look again and compare IP addresses, I am forced to desist from posting here, as I will surely never be believed. I have been accused wrongly, and I hope it’s a Kapporah for me.
I’m sure I won’t be missed, but to those with whom I’ve dialogued respectfully, thank you, and I wish everyone well.
YW Moderator,
Can you PLEASE double check the IP address and clarify that I am not GMAB; this isn’t fair, and is casting aspersion on me for no reason. Please, check SarahB and Sarah, and see which one is using GMAB’s IP. This is really upsetting.
OK, mdlevine, I won’t try to convince you otherwise.
If you’d like to go back to my posts, and see how my comments are on the opposite end of the spectrum from GMAB, SarahB (“who” is a vegetarian, Obama supporter, etc etc), and those that are mentioned, you may.
YWN, can you PLEASE check the IP addresses, and make the change from Sarah to SarahB on the “Why are you blocking my posts”. To me, this is more than a minor matter: if I take the time to participate here, it’s disheartening that my credibility can be so easily ruined .
Sammygol,
I wasn’t Dan L’kaf Zechus, and for that I apologize. I see that you didn’t dream up the Sarah=GMAB in a hallucinative state- it’s on the “Why are you blocking my posts” thread from GMAB.
YWN, I think you meant SarahB, and not Sarah. I thought it interesting that “SarahB” posited opinions diametrically different than my own, but didn’t suspect “foul play”.
Sammygol- I owe you a Brachah: May you and your family have good health, Nachas, and Parnassah.
Although my computer knowledge is one step above “slide-out cup holder” status, I’m still curious as to how one can use multiple screen names.
GMAB- I guess the multiple personalities you employ in order to convince your debating partners is a compliment to YWN members, who are so formidable that you require “back up” assistance.
Sammygol,
You said “Yes, Sarah :)” in a dialogue in which I had not participated. Parenthetically, it was I who commented on the possibility of YOUR “association” with the names mentioned, and not the other way around.
Perhaps you imbibed too much yesterday; thus your mild amnesia. That would also explain your strange interjection as well.
Sammygol,
I had to reply here. I have never enjoyed a case of mistaken identity as much as this. At first glance, I have not the faintest idea why you would mention my name here, particularly since GMAB’s style of writing is so far from my own.
It’s fun being mistaken for a PETA supporter and Obama cheerleader, among other positions (sorry, GMAB, but I do enjoy chicken; I am, however, careful not to step on ants).
Here’s my take: You don’t GMAB’s posts. You were once irked by a post of mine. You have such Ahavas Yisrael that you find it difficult to imagine that you can be irked by more than one individual. Hence, all such posts must be authored by one person.
For those technologically savvy enough to know how to post under a screen name other than the one that appears when one logs in, I guess they consider it a productive use of time. As you seem so sure that one can do this, I am starting to suspect that perhaps you belong to this knowledgeable club. Hmm, let’s see now…Are you Feivel? Joseph? RabbiofBerlin? Zevi8? Thanks for the laugh, and remember: It’s OK to disagree with others. Please don’t let disagreements shake your sense of self-worth, to the extent that you recall a dissenter from months past. You’re better than that.
“The fact is, many people in the Yeshivish world look down on those who don’t sit and learn. it’s been discussed here many times. It’s not everyone, but it’s a very large group.”
I know Yeshivish people who fit the description above. I also know many MO people who are very outspoken in their distaste for Yeshivish communities and people. Sometimes quite vitriolic and condescending.
So again, there are people in EVERY group who feel that they are superior- this is a personality type. To me, the person who calls a Yeshivish community “Chumrah town” and mocks black and white clothing as “penguins” is the same personality type of the one who mocks those who wear colored shirts and derides going to work at eighteen. They both are abhorrent, unpleasant, and very distasteful company. They THINK they are on opposite ends of the spectrum, but where it counts, they are in fact birds of identical feathers.
I do realize, however, that our personal experiences color our perspectives, and that your personal experience informs your view of certain groups. Please realize, however, that young adults of MO backgrounds who have abandoned Judaism often speak of their own parents/communities’ attitude of superiority and egocentricity. Personality problems do not discriminate between communities, and are unfortunately found everywhere.
Aside from our small difference of opinion here, I thank you for your input on this thread- insightful and enlightening as usual.
Feif Un,
I often find your posts inspiring and thoughtful. This statement, “I always say that Yeshivish people dress in black and white because that’s how they see the world – no gray area at all” seems unfair, and doesn’t “pas” from you.
I don’t think you mean to be judgmental of all Yeshivish people, just like it is abhorrent for “black and white dressers” to be judgmental of all people who don’t dress thus. It isn’t fair or honest to paint a large group with so broad a brush. There are critical, judgmental, and short-sighted people in ALL groups, just as there are intelligent, understanding, and clear-thinking members of ALL groups. I don’t think any group has a monopoly on disturbing attitudes, stereotypes notwithstanding.
It is true that our personal experiences do color our perspectives. As someone who has relationships with disenfranchised young adults from a variety of backgrounds, I feel I can state with some certainty that issues related to leaving the parents’ paths are found in all backgrounds, sparing no group.
Refuah Shleimah
What a beautiful article!
Thank you for sharing your story and your feelings.
Your words are very uplifting.
oomis1105,
I was not discussing your position, but a more nuanced manner of expression. Whether or not a Moforesh resonates with us is not a determinant of its truth. When Meforshim disagree, we, as beings considerably less endowed with Torah and Kedushah than these, don’t generally feel qualified to determine which position is more correct.
If I understand correctly, you were attempting to *understand* Rashi, and to explore additional commentary on the Pasuk. If so, we agree, and I was simply offering a more nuanced expression of your comments.
All the best.
oomis1105,
Personally, I usually say “I don’t understand” rather than “I don’t agree” when it comes to Rashi or similar. I prefer not to give the impression (even to myself) that my own perception and understanding is sufficient to “agree or disagree” with Meforshim.
When Meforshim state opposing views, I learn them both. I still don’t assert my own perception of logic to state my “agreement” or otherwise, and when I am unsure of an interpretation of a Meforash, I ask a Torah scholar who has better understanding of what the Meforash intended, not to get his “logic” on whether he “agrees” with Rashi or not. If he did offer his “logic” to disagree with Rashi, rather than provide his understanding of the interpretation of Rashi, I would know I had the wrong address.
I say this not to give criticism, but to offer an alternative manner of expression, as perhaps this might resonate with you. I know you meant well.
cantoresq,
I’m sad for you that you only notice the few batlanim and ignore the beautiful and thunderous Kol Torah emanating from the Lakewood Yeshiva buildings. I do not mean this sarcastically. I truly think that you believe what you are saying regarding Lakewood (“mass batalah”).
You have been inculcated with that view by cynical people, and it is not your fault. I hope you are allowed the opportunity for a different perspective one day.
Mariner,
I was responding to the following post by disposition:
“YW is a for-profit enterprise, hosting, and now e-mailing, advertisements for the sole purpose of generating revenue for its proprietors. While it’s certainly their right and I wish them best of luck in their endeavors, the excessive commendations is unwarranted.”
He/she did not mention Chessed, and neither did I. He made reference to “excessive commendations” for a “for-profit enterprise”, and I responded that I thank those who help me.
I see you are a concrete thinker. Therefore, perhaps I need to clarify for you: I thank those running for-profit enterprises, and those who are not running for profit-enterprises. I thank them both, and I consider it Mentchlich to do so.
This is my personal view, which I am now learning is not shared by all. That is OK; I like to learn new things.
Unlike disposition or me, you brought up Chessed, for unknown reasons. I hope all is clear now, and you can rest easy knowing that I enjoy giving commendations, excessive or otherwise, to those who have helped me. If you are still having difficulty regarding my comment to disposition, please feel free to ask.
“do you consider the garbage man doing a chessed, or the barber, or your gardener”
I didn’t discuss Chessed.
I stated that I thank people who help me. The barber, the gardener, YWN, the shopkeeper, and the postman.
havesomeseichel,
I appreciate that information- thank you.
disposition,
“the excessive commendations is unwarranted”
I usually profusely thank people who help me, especially if their work reflects great effort, dedication, or attention to detail.
Do you not do the same?
Sorry, gmab,
That’s the nature of a forum. One needs to relinquish the soap box at least some of the time…
Berlin,
May this year be a year of Brachah and growth for you. Try to be centered, focused, and modulated in both your intepretation of others’ position and your own replies. You can do it.
SarahB,
I like your name, and your message :).
Pashuteh Yid,
“Sarah, RabbiofBerlin was only addressing a post strongly, and did not insult the poster.”
If you classify Berlin’s words as “strong”, then I don’t think the two of us have common ground for conversation. His posts are the written version of foaming at the mouth. It is extremely distasteful to log on and read curses on a Jewish website (“your end will be bad”). If these don’t bother you, we have little in common.
The Apikorus references bandied about with such ease are equally distasteful. I have written about unwarranted labeling as well in the past. I try not to open any threads with inflammatory headlines. Additionally, I generally do not open threads on this forum or the main site with threads referencing known Jewish personalities from any group, as I am certain to find L”H, MSR, and vitriolic language in these.
I have politely requested that other posters speak with dignity and maturity, including those of more right-wing persuasion. One in particular thanked me, albeit calling me “Morah” in jest. The two posters with whom I have recently interacted on this topic have rejected my request out of hand. I do my best, and then move on. Lo alecha hamelacha ligmor…
As far as the topic under discussion: The Rebbe, Israel, etc, I do not engage in meaningless debates, and have no problem with your assertion of any stance you choose. I usually try to keep my opinions to myself, unless I feel it is important to speak up. I feel it is important to speak up when Jewish posters are cursing, and engaging in disgusting, contemptible language (crawl into your hole). You don’t feel that is important. We can be different. That is OK.
Right now, some posters who engage in vulgar and nasty language maintain their right to do so, and are not willing to even acknowledge the problem. I know that may change in the future, and have much belief in our fellow posters and all Jews that we can and will eventually show our best side .
“i would ask you to read ALL my postings and not just the stray one or two…I don’t see my talk as insulting at all and when I see people actually wishing for the destruction of another six million jews, I absolutely will deploy what you consider “insulting words””
I haven’t seen anything of the sort, so I must conclude that your take great leaps from posters’ legitimate opinions to gross exaggeration and ascribe evil intention and meaning that do not reflect reality. Yes, I do think that is childish.
“Have you ever read any of the “other’ literature? Have you ever read some of the seforim of the “other’side? If you would have read even a fraction of them, you would see that I surely have no monopoly on “insulting” words.”
I’m not sure how the content of written works that you find offensive relate to dialogue on this forum. If you can show me where Itzik has cursed you with “your end will be bad”, or has told you to “crawl back into your hole”, I might better understand how you stoop to such language.
“Whether my words are an embarassment,I ‘ll leave it to the other “left-wing” posters to decide.By the way, why do you consider it “left-wing”? I am a deeply conservative, traditonal jew who believes in some truths that others do not.”
That’s fine. I have no problem with anyone’s self-definition. Parenthetically, I do not see “left-wing” as being derogatory, nor do I see it as contradictory to “deeply conservative, traditional Jew”. As far as believing in “some truths”, those are truths as you see them. Others see different truths. That’s OK- just argue with dignity and maturity.
Berlin,
Why do you insist in speaking in so insulting a fashion? You and Itzik are on two sides of some fences, true. Why is nastiness required? So many of your posts tell other their “end will be bad”, “crawl into your hole”, “rantings”, etc. I think your posts are an embarrasment to the other more left-wing posters who state their positions with firmness and dignity.
Perhaps you are simply a young teenager with unmodulated excitability, or you are not aware of how your language inhibits your credibility. This is pre-school playground talk.
Please don’t say, “but he also…”. You are not a child.
torahis1,
I’m baffled by your post, but did not want to ignore you.
If you are not ready to understand the irony of your previous posts, I understand. I have just as much a difficult time with my own weaknesses. I wish you well, and wish all of us Shalom al Yisrael.
torahis1,
I don’t think I “grossly misunderstood you”; the language you employ is unfortunately easily understood.
I don’t think I can help out further here, so if you don’t know “what I want from” you, then I wish you well.
To those posters who have demonstrated agreement with and understanding of milchig’s position- whether from the right, the left, or the center (and we all think we are the center, don’t we? :)), it can be done! I will use greater care to avoid judgmental labeling, tarring groups, and nasty exaggeration; I am certain others will join in this attempt.
Thank you milchig, and Hatzlachah to us all!
lesschumras,
Regardless of what Torahis1 is attempting “to say”, he is using a language and manner that is a perfect example of the concern milchig brought to the table. This is exactly the point: if you have something to say, do so respectfully. Retain your dignity.
Parenthetically, less chumras, I have found your posts to be respectful, albeit strong at times; that is the ideal presentation in a dialogue of strong opinions. You are able to vehemently disagree (with me, at times :)) without lowering yourself to a shrill, juvenile screaming match.
“Really? who are u to decide what is against the Torah? And even so, who appointed you to go after them? What does ‘full force’ mean? beating up women on busses? throwing bleach on women? character assasination of musicians? threatening and harassing Rabbonim dealing with child predators?
gimme a break”
Torahis1,
This is so unfair and inappropriate. Do you have evidence that veimloachshuv has engaged in or supports violence and harrassment? Is it right to hurl accusations? How did you make the leap from “full force” as written and “bleach”? “Full force” protestations can be written respectfully too.
This type of language is in the same “genre” as “Apikorus” and similar. You may not like the company of those who maintain positions closer to the right, but to me, all individuals who speak with such nastiness are birds of a feather, even as they fight in the flock.
milchig,
“There is a polite way to tell someone that you disagree with them without calling them liars (in Hebrew/Yiddish), morons and all those other kind words we teach our children not to use.”
I completely agree with you, milchig. It seems that posters of all kinds have difficulty maintaining a respectful tone.
Phrases such as: “holier than thou, super machmir, Taliban, judgemental, mean spriritedness” do not contribute to a respectful dialogue between posters. Yes, this is truly an ugly, unfriendly representation of the Torah world.
Torahis1- I’m saddened that someone slipped so soon and provided an apt example of milchig’s important point. You write that you’ve been “screaming”. Please don’t. We can discuss issues instead of denigrating our conversational partners.
The same can be said for posters who use denigrating language to tar those who maintain more lenient Halachic positions. It is more helpful to discuss the issues; avoid personalizing the discussion. A certainty of your position does not require accusation. Try saying simply, “This is the Halachah, and I feel you are incorrect”.
You are either correct, or incorrect. Neither status precludes dignified expression.
oomis1105,
You have clicked on a thread in the “Latest Discussions” section.
In the “Forum” section, you will find a dedicated thread for cooking, with a subcategory entitled “Fleishig”.
The Meatball thread may be accessed via “Latest Discussions” or “Cooking- Fleishig”.
As this thread ages and comments decrease, you will no longer find it in “Latest Discussions”. It will still be available for viewing in the dedicated cooking thread. At that point, if you choose to add a comment, the thread will again appear in the “Latest Discussions” section as well.
Editor, please correct my comment if needed.
Mariner,
“Sarah, thats your problem, and like me, you dont understand how to take your religion out of your ethical code, while liberals dont understand how religion and ethics can be one and the same. again not knocking, just that is usually how it is, especially with the hard left.”
Actually, I have no idea what you are talking about.
I did not share my view of ethics in politics; I simply stated that I do not share givemeabreak’s particular positions.
Your idea of ethics in politics is certainly not mine. Neither do I share givemeabreak’s perspective.
I did not present my view, nor do I intend to. I don’t discuss specific politics or my personal positions on these matters; just attempting to clarify givemeabreak’s intentions. In a number of threads, he/she promoted Obama, and I offered suggestions for how givemeabreak might do so more effectively. If this thread is about something else, that’s fine.
Happy politicking :). As for myself, I appreciate the secret ballot.
“This thread isn’t for supporting Obama. It’s an ethics thread.”
Oh.
We have different understandings of “ethics” in politics, but thanks for sharing your view.
A. The right of an American- every citizen has the “right” to vote according to personal values, if he so chooses.
B. Some individuals may feel that certain “values” are what is “good for America”. You may feel otherwise, and that is your right as well.
I realize you’re very excited about Obama, and therefore suggest that you employ a greater level of sophistication in a dialogue on this topic. Perhaps try to highlight your candidate’s strengths or previous accomplishments.
Try to find a career counselor who can assess your aptitude and strengths and offer practical suggestions based on these.
LeiderLeider…
In order to be a leaderleader, one might find it useful to get off one’s soapbox and look “deep inside” and do some real thinking – not superficial thinking”. And I mean this sincerely. Really, really sincerely. I also “agree with what [I’m] writing”.
But I did agree with the “I will end my confused post” part. And also the “please spare us the rhetoric” part.
I am also certain of your sincerity, and hope that perhaps you soon will realize that the part about “I appreciate your admonition. Guilty as charged. Now that we have established this and I pled guilty, let’s get this out of the way” is truly, really, a startlingly deficient role model for introspection.
I further hope that you will realize that your assertion that “Most people I know within my Chassidishe community (Borough Park) go through life from beginning to end as one big fake fraudulent charade” is “not nice” (finger wagging). Truly.
Next time, perhaps you might be best off opening a topic on translation of a Mussar Sefer, so that we may all learn. Without badmouthing your neighbors, and making sweeping claims about the rest of humanity (or perhaps only posters). I know that you looked deep inside before you made the generalization about your community, and that you sincerely and truly feel that most of your neighbors, shopkeepers, service people, family, and friends in your community are all one big fake fraudulent charade. Keep on looking; you’ll get there.
Sincerely and unrhetorically yours.
Zalman and Berlin,
Can you possibly try to write with more civility? Your manner is completely inappropriate for a Ben Torah.
Itzik,
It is not necessary to translate all of your thoughts into writing. Particularly negative ones. Isn’t Motzi Shem Ra and Lashon Hara infinitely more important than your personal perspective of a fellow Jew?
“yoshilitt, why don’t you produce hubby yossisiegal for a good yocheved defense?”
UJM, now where’s your manners? Yoshi summoned him as per your request; now welcome him nicely :).
I intended to write “OFF base”, but “base” is not a bad stand-in. Lol.
Yoshi,
I give up. I wish you Hatzlacha. Perhaps some day, you will better understand these issues. Your attempt to frame my words as “Rebbetzin” or frummy is so base, but worth it for a good laugh.
Parenthetically, I guess you don’t consider your words “embarrassment? Yikes!