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AviK: Stop it. Your distortion of sources is just bad now.
1. That is not what the Gemara in Bava Basra says. The Gemara says you have to do anything possible to avoid a non-Tznius situation, but if in the end of the day you’re really stuck, then it’s an Ones so it’s okay (you could have quoted the Gemara properly and it would have served your point, but you chose to misquote it).
2. Evah doesn’t apply to by Jews, it’s an outbreak of Pikuach Nefesh, and we are Mattir D’Oraisas in some cases because of that fact. You bringing up those sources is both incorrect and irrelevant.
3. I don’t think that’s what the Sridei Eish says but I don’t know that T’shuvah by heart, so I could be wrong. What does “singing for enjoyment” even mean?
4. That’s the Sridei Eish’s Chiddush and yet he still doesn’t Pasken by it without the second Tzad Lehakel that it be Devarim Shebikdusha, over which the Yetzter Harah has no control. Presumably he didn’t hold of this by itself based on the Gemara in Rosh Hashana (I believe 27a).
5. The singers know that Frum people won’t want to listen to women sing. It’s not embarrassing them if they put you into an impossible situation, with full knowledge of what will happen.
You should have said Ee Efshar V’lo Kam’chaven and been done with it. That would have been a valid Halachic argument and quite possibly is correct as well. Your attempted distortion of sources does nothing for either you or your argument.
Great_Idea: I think you misunderstood me, but your response was a little uncalled for regardless. I meant it’s a Davar Pashut that as part of the Nidui that comes with a Seruv is the fact that those who ignore the Nidui also open themselves up to the same Nidui.
Who cares if it was non-Jewish? The people buying it are listening to Jewish music.
Rav Matisyahu Salomon in his Sefer Matnas Chayim (the first one, I think on Mo’adim) has a long thing about non-Jewish music. You’d be shocked at how OK he says it is to turn non-Jewish music Jewish.
Great_Idea: I assumed it was a Davar Pashut. If he is in Nidui for violating what Beis Din did and others still support him, then they will be ignoring Beis Din as well. Umm, I’ll look for a specific Makor, I guess. If the case under discussion here is the one I’m thinking of, by the way, from what I know (which is pretty much everything about the case) the man and his family are very much in the wrong here and the Seruv was signed by some very, very prominent Rabbonim who investigated the case fully.
Great_Idea: If a legitimate Seruv is issued and the relatives are supporting him Shelo K’din afterwards, it is just as Muttar to pressure them as it would be to pressure him.
Not that Popa needs my support here, but I’ll give it. A poster tried inventing Halachah and Popa very properly called him out on it in a way that he would not be able to improperly influence anyone else.
If you’re gonna eat early, I’ve found that puddings and yogurts don’t hurt you so much no matter how early you eat them and both keep you full for a long time.
I have been told that the novel Wicked contains several very inappropriate scenes. I didn’t check this out firsthand (for obvious reasons), but I just want to let everyone know that before they attempt to read it.
Lesschumras: This isn’t a Chumra. It’s a Passuk in the Torah. Lo Sa’asun Iti.
ICOT: Myzmanim is very precise on what time sunrise and sunset are. I can figure out the rest on my own.
They do Alos by degrees (which some Kehillos do but the vast majority hold like the Shulchan Aruch that it’s 72 minutes before Neitz no matter what) so you end up starting fasts much too early, sometimes as much as an hour early in some places in the summer. They do something similar with Tzeitz, though that is a very detailed Halachic discussion that there is more room to be Machmir for (though I am very upset that they ignore Rav Moshe’s fixed 42-minute after Shkiah opinion).
And they say that earliest Minchah in the winter is a fixed 30 minutes after Chatzos (not Zmaniyos), an opinion about which I have asked several very knowledgeable Poskim and been told has absolutely no basis in Halachah as far as they know.
Cantgetit: New York has a state law that you can’t get a civil divorce without a religious one.
Nitpicker: No one says you need reputable people involved to have a Kosher Get. You just need 2 slightly-disreputable friends who aren’t Passul L’edus (yet).
As someone who loved L. Frank Baum’s entire 14-part Oz series as a kid, I was greatly upset by the plot of Wicked. They completely destroyed his story.
Use the OU website. Myzmanim.com passes off Chumros as Halacha.
PBA: Yeah, but in New York you go to jail for polygamy if you don’t give the Get first.
Dash: A Mesader Kiddushin is not M’akev a marriage. And a guy who divorces his wife Ba’al Korchah probably won’t get a reupatable Rav to be Mesader his next marriage anyway.
AviK: The Sridei Eish says Shirei Eretz Yisrael? I thought his Lashon has “Shiros V’Sishbachos LaHKBH”, but I could be wrong. Either way, whatever the army women were singing I don’t think qualifies. I don’t think their intentions were to sing L’sheim Shamayim. And I won’t even begin to discuss your brutalization of the Sugya of healing a Nochri on Shabbos, or the fact that the comparison is entirely inapplicable..
Rav Aviner makes a very good point about EE Efshar V’lo Kam’chaven.
PBA: That Gemara has 2 Leshonos. According to one Lashon it was clearly a Geder and a Chumra. According to the other there is what to discuss. I think the general assumption is Lekula in such a case, but I’ve never really looked into that in such huge detail.
Whether or not they got a P’sak might not change their intentions, but it might change how we regard them. If they have a legitimate P’sak Lekula, even if they want to be Ma’avir Al Das, presumably the Chillul Hashem aspect goes away, and that is what makes it Yeihareh V’al Ya’avor anyway according to the Rambam (it is not entirely clear to what extent the other Rishonim disagree with that position).
But you are very right. Regardless of if this is actually Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor, since the Israeli army wouldn’t actually kill you for not attending then someone who holds it’s actually Kol Ishah would not be able to attend. (Unless you want to call it a Safek Pikuach Nefesh because in theory the army could call that treason, which is a death penalty offense. I would assume that that is a far too Rachok of a Safek to even qualify. Even if the Israeli army could make that case, there is no way on Earth they actually would.)
Yitay is a Talmid of Rav Abadi’s, whose P’sak on this is not accepted by most others. That’s fine for Yitay and his other Talmidim, but not for everyone. I think Yitay’s point is that there is a very good Limud Zechus for this girl (who knows, maybe she follows Rav Abadi as well?), not that we all should do like she does.
PBA: The interesting part of the end of that is that the Mechaber (and Rambam) says the Oved Kochavim wants to be Ma’avir Al Das. Presumably this is because they couldn’t fathom/it would be incredibly abnormal for a Jew to force this, though the potential Diyuk is interesting (but wrong, I think). I would think that Ad’raba, Sha’as Hashmad might apply since this is a law forcing you to be Over. What makes this so complex is that they (I think) had Poskim Mattir it for them, so it’s hard to call it Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor for some but Muttar for others. Especially because if there is a Heter, then the army is no longer intending to be Ma’avir Al Das.
The Ervah part is interesting. As far as I know, no one says that seeing a non-Tznius woman is Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor. It’s not a Davar Hamevi Lidei Ervah. Especially by Kol and S’ar, since those seem to be lower than the rest in many Rishonim.
Rav Schachter always points out that the Ran says that there is an Issur D’Oraisa of divorcing a woman against her will. There is an additional Cherem of Rabbeinu Gershom against doing it. However, if someone does it then it works. The most effective way would probably be to throw it at her and have it land within her 4 Amos (although shoving it in her hand or her pocket would work too-I think pocket works, hand definitely does). And a person can write it himself. We have rules and Chumros by writing Gittin (most of which I’m not familiar with, I’ve never studied Lema’aseh, only the Gemara and what I heard from Rav Schachter’s Shiurim from a few years back, those are still online though). But Mid’oraisa it works if he writes it properly, has Kavanah, and then just has two Frum friends there when he gives it to her.
PBA: I think you’re a little over the top here, on two counts. Anything pertaining to Pikuach Nefesh is Muttar in war. Those 4 things are Muttar for an army even with no Pikuach Nefesh involved, because there are some things where we like making the soldiers’ lives easier. And I don’t think this counts as a Shmad for Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor (though if it did it would be irrelevant whether or not this was an Ervah issue), but I have to think about that more. But yes, you are correct that much of the secular leadership in Israel wants us not to be Frum. However, it’s not everyone, it’s probably not even a majority, and that group might not make them not worth dealing with (that probably depends on the individual cases).
A Heter Meah Rabbanim is not a divorce. It does not dissolve the marriage. It is part of the Cheirem of Rabbeinu Gershom against marrying a second wife. You need a HMR to marry a second wife.
And Oomis: A woman does not have to accept the Get. It can be given Ba’al Korchah. She has several ways to avoid him being able to give it to her, but if he gives it to her they’re divorced.
Cherrybim: That’s just not true.
It is Assur to make a replica of the sun or moon. There are many Machloksim involved as to what exactly is Assur (2D vs. 3D, whether it has to look like it or just be representative, and more), but as far as I know everyone agrees that if it’s partial then it’s okay. That’s why there was actually a genre of Frum photography where people would take pictures of the sunset but wait until just a bit of it had dropped below the horizon. Ask you LOR for what you hold, but this is far from a ridiculous Chumra and has serious Halachic backing (and may even be a majority opinion, I’m not familiar enough with the issue to know for sure).
The one quote that I hate when the anti-religious feminists (and the anti-feminist religious) bring up is “A woman’s wisdom is only the spindle.” That is taken grossly out of context and anyone who actually saw the Gemara inside would realize what it means.
MDD: And a woman who does…? 🙂
Health: The Ponevezher Rav mandated flying the flag. And Rav Shach used to stand up when his grandson entered the Beis Medrash in his army uniform.
HaKatan: I have no further response to you. I can explain the Commentator or the student dynamics of YU, but what would the point be? You continue to claim that “MO” lets modern society trump the Torah, but have yet to provide any proof or anything other than anecdotal evidence that says… I’m still not sure what. It’s clear that you have no intention of doing anything other than explaining why whatever you want to term “MO” (which you have yet to define) doesn’t have anything to do with “traditional Judaism”.
That is not necessarily true. An Amen Yesomah is if you answer after Toch K’dei Dibbur. Sometimes the Chazzan speaks faster than the average speech of people. You have the same amount of time to answer Amen (in regards to Amen Yesomah) whether or not the Chazzan continues. There is a separate issue that it is Assur to speak during Chazaras Hashatz, and thus it is not permitted to answer Amen after the Chazzan has begun the next Bracha.
THM: A skirt above the knee for sure. Too tight I’m not sure about. It’s not an issue of Ervah, there might be no obligation to stop them.
Health: Okay, I’ll give you that. 🙂 When, other than in direct response to a poster about a post, have I attacked anyone? I never attacked any group and have never condemned or attacked “Chareidim”.
Sorry. You are Yotzei the Bracha that you make whether or not someone answers Amen. (And it’s not actually a Bracha Levatalah if no one answers Chazaras Hashatz.) If you want someone else to be Motzi you with their Bracha, then you are Yotzei even if you don’t answer Amen, though of course you have an obligation to answer Amen (just as when you hear any Bracha).
THM: But he did endorse it yet and has not yet withdrawn that endorsement, correct?
THM: There’s a Tosafos in Yevamos that for sure doesn’t sound like that. A woman is not even obligated to nurse her son after a divorce (maybe, it’s a Machlokes there) if she doesn’t want to.
The Horses Mouth: Actually, as far as I know Halacha doesn’t mention custody. I always wondered about that. If you have any Mekoros I would love to see them. Also, Halachah tells us when it’s Muttar to go to secular courts, because there are some cases where it is.
It’s not necessary, you’re Yotzei B’dieved, but why would you not?
Health: When have I attacked or condemned anyone?
HaKatan: And I am saying that “MO” takes no liberties with Halacha and allow nothing to trump the Torah. Your anecdotal stories don’t prove anything. Yes, “MO” mixes the genders more. Not because they say the modern ideal of mixing genders trumps Halacha (as you claim), but because they believe that whatever gender-mixing they participate in is Muttar. These are Halachic decisions, all of them. And as I said before, yes there are people who claim to be “MO” who aren’t completely Shomer Halacha. That still doesn’t at all prove that “MO” takes liberties with Halachah. No one, and I mean no one, who honestly believes they are Orthodox (“Modern” or otherwise) thinks that any considerations not provided for in Halachah ever trumps Halachah.
Health, you’re unbelievable. You spend countless hours stating how many people are not “Bichlal Amisecha” because of so many different reasons and now you are defending someone (I don’t know any of the story or anything about the guy, so I’m not commenting on this specific situation) by saying that for Lashon Harah to be Muttar you either need a P’sak Beis Din or to see them doing Aveiros “all the time” (I’m not sure how a video would prove that either; it’s just one clip, not an indication of what they always do). Which is it?
DY: Rav Moshe’s Derech is generally not to be concerned with what the later Achronim say, so I doubt his “Safek Gadol” comes from a few relatively recent SHUTim.
Health: This is why some people get offended by you. Responding tongue-in-cheek is sometimes fine; sometimes it’s the best way to get your point across. But there’s no reason for name-calling.
HaKatan: Saying that “MO” takes “liberties” with Halachah and then refusing to discuss what those liberties are is just asking to have your opinion dismissed out of hand. In my experience, people you would term “MO” have the same Mekoros and the same Halachos as anyone else. What differentiates “MO” from “traditional Orthodox” (whatever that means, you refuse to explain that too) in most people’s eyes, and I will assume in yours too until you actually explain the differences, is probably nothing more than a few inconsequential Halachic decisions (yes, Halachic decisions, even if you feel that one of the opinions is completely right), mostly ones that affect external appearances.
Whether or not it is ever proper to withhold a Get, withholding one is not something to be done lightly and definitely a concept that should not be discussed publicly.
OOM: There is a Machlokes Haposkim whether sticking your fingers into the cracks counts as entering Har Habayis. That makes sense.
MDD: Of course there are cases where you can be physical to prevent Aveiros. However, I am not familiar with any Makor outside of those two that allows for it outside of Beis Din.
Nechomah: If you stay behind the Kosel it is not possible to be anywhere that a Tamei is Assur to entire. The Kosel is the retaining wall of Har Habayis. As long as you are behind it you are not on Har Habayis and therefore not anywhere Assur.
Nechomah: None of the tunnel tours go past the Kosel (unless there are tunnel tours that I’m unaware of) so it’s impossible to be anywhere wear it’s Assur.
A violation of the Shalosh Shevuos (assuming that Gemara was even ever meant Halachically) is Yeihareg V’al Ya’avor?
Apushtayid said it perfectly. We know these protesters aren’t representing Halachah. Why do we fault the Gedolim for not publicly stating what we already know?
HaKatan: I am trying to impress upon you that “MO Shitos” don’t exist based on an “MO ideology”. Such a thing would be Apikorsus, the same as Paskening “Chareidi Shitos” or “Yeshivish Shitos” based off of a “Chareidi ideology” or “Yeshivish ideology” and not based off of Halachah and Mesorah would be Apikorsus. There is no such thing as “MO ideology”. I will concede to you that many consider themselves “MO” while they aren’t completely Shomer Halachah. That doesn’t make “MO” an ideology which will Passul any P’sak given by an “MO” Rabbi or Posek.
Just curious, what do you mean when you say “MO”?
Really writer? I’m pretty sure it’s a Gemara in Shabbos, I’ll look it up. I could be wrong.