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See Shailos Ut’shuvos Maritatz Even Haezer 2:20, I believe. Also, even in cases where we would apply this it would require an accepted Beis Din by an entire community. 3 guys can’t just get together and claim that Beis Din Malkin V’onshin Shelo Min Hadin.
Soliek: The same thing has happened with authors and Seforim. Paper used to be valuable enough that your Sefer had to be accepted by everyone and really good to be circulated. Now anyone can get a few thousand dollars and a friend with an in with a publisher and they can throw a new Sefer out there.
Bear: Jews have always taken names from surrounding people and languages. After a while, they actually become Jewish names and stay that way. Where do you think the names Mordechai and Esther come from?
Hello: My point was that there is a perception that Jews won’t donate organs for religious reasons and therefore many people would be unwilling to donate organs to Jews. That is a true Pikuach Nefesh, whether or not someone’s organs personally go to Jews. Nivul Hameis is easily pushed off Mishum Eivah. Murder is not. Thus, I would never say to take an organ from a person with a heartbeat (even though I think that those who say that brain-stem death is death have much to rely on, I agree that those who define death by a heartbeat also have much to rely on) if that person holds it is murder. Taking organs after cessation of a heartbeat is perfectly okay though, and Eivah should push off Nivul Hameis.
Health: You saying that logically Eivah shouldn’t apply doesn’t make it so. Look at the current attitudes towards Jews in Europe and Israel in general on organ donations and then tell me that there is no Eivah there. Whether or not we can give a good logical argument to remove Eivah doesn’t change the fact that people will have emotional responses that could lead to Jewish deaths. The Poskim give the perfect logic that we can say to non-Jews that we are only Mechalel Shabbos for those who worship Shabbos. And yet, the Chassam Sofer published his famous T’shuvah Mishum Eivah. And once again, just because a lot is done when the person has a pulse doesn’t meant that you can’t sign a card saying that organs can only be harvested after the heart has stopped beating.
I believe Rav Schachter and Rav Sobolofsky both point out that if you make a Mezonos on 1 slice of pizza then you have to make Hamotzi on a soft pretzel. (Though their explanation was not quite Muchrach to me, I will admit.) If I recall correctly from when I looked into this, a pretzel is scalded in water like a bagel before baking, but pretzels are scalded for a bit longer. The question, in my opinion, will be if that scalding is long enough to make it Mezonos even if it is baked after.
My last post was obviously supposed to say that killing a Treifah is murder. Mods, if you can fix that typo please I’d appreciate it.
Hello: I did not speak to Poskim in E”Y. If those are the facts in Israel, then those are the facts. They are certainly not the facts in America and my argument still stands here.
Berlin: Brain death is not necessarily a Treifah. You would still need a hole in one of the places that makes a Treifah. Also, killing a Treifah is murder. You’re just not Chayav Misah if you do it. It’s still Retzicha.
Toi: Because then these “incentives” will just become an “I’m frummer than you” contest and Hechsherim will be forced to pull themselves from places whenever someone can think of a new complaint, whether or not it has a good basis in Halachah.
PBA: I know that none of the arguments that I have seen are anywhere near satisfactory. I was curious if maybe I would hear one that I have not yet heard. I think that there’s a chance that I have heard/seen them all already, but I am not quite arrogant enough to actually assume that I have.
PBA: I’d be very interested to hear your Rebbeim’s response to what possible issue there could be for taking organs for transplant after the heart stops beating.
Pull a Hechsher? Is the food no longer Kosher? The day we start pulling Hechsherim for non-food related issues is the day all of Kashrus becomes nothing but politics.
There are things on there that I am sure that some would find objectionable. Certainly there is nothing at all wrong with any of the Roshei Yeshivah shiurim.
Yes. Someone thought it was a problem, asked Rav Moshe, and Rav Moshe said that the idea that it was a problem was ridiculous.
Am I telling anyone to listen to me here? I made my posts very clearly. I have my opinion and from my first post here I made it clear that I was arguing with many Poskim. I am voicing my (very strong, in this case) opinion and I clearly expect that no one in an anonymous chat room would listen to me Lema’aseh.
PBA: That’s fine. Like I said, I understand that I am very much on my own in this. I am trying to change that fact, but the fact is that for now that’s how it is.
PBA: That’s exactly what I’m saying in this case. It’s the only case where I will argue against a majority of contemporary Poskim, but this is a fight that I will keep up until I am given a T’shuvah Nitzchis or others agree to me.
HaLeiVi: Next to or underneath?
The Aruch Hashulchan says somewhere (maybe that first Siman) that there is nothing more degrading for a person than sleeping in shoes (not socks). I don’t think it’s mentioned on the memory things though.
PBA: You would obviously say that Hashem will take care of them. But I think you’re wrong (not that Hashem won’t take care of them; just that the match who refuses to donate organs is actively using his Bechirah to prevent Hashem’s chosen way of saving this person’s life.
PBA: Yeah, but what if their way of life comes at the cost of my life? That’s what I strongly disagree with. It’s okay for you to say that you’ll follow your Poskim and Hashem will take care of you. But about when you following your Poskim is taking away from someone else?
PBA: I don’t think his point is that competing for more and more Chumros makes us look bad in the eyes of the Goyim, but that it makes us look silly to other Jews who know Halachah.
Health: Niddah isn’t bound by time. Zman Grama implies a set time, meaning a certain day or time of day. Niddah isn’t influenced by that. Rav Schachter has a whole Shiur on this. If I get bored sometime soon maybe I’ll try and find it on YUTorah for you. And like I said at the end, the Chiyuv would be there even when she’s a Niddah, there is just a separate Issur preventing it. That’s not considered Z’man G’rama.
PBA: I understand. I know that I get a ton of flak for this opinion. I also feel that voicing this opinion is more than worth it. It’s not that I feel that the other side is Halachically illegitimate. I just feel (very, very, strongly) that they have missed the point, are not completely aware of the physical facts, and have therefore created a situation where Israel is denied organs to save Jewish lives because too many Jews won’t be organ donors. They might have valid claims, but I have yet to hear one (T’chiyas Hameisim, Kavod Hameis, Nivul Hameis, and a few others I won’t repeat here) that would be enough to stop someone from saving a life. Not calling brain stem death Misah is a valid argument but someone can have a card saying that organs can only be donated after cessation of a heartbeat. I see no reason whatsoever to oppose such a thing. Nivul Hameis/T’chiyas Hameisim should never be enough to allow a person to die.
From Wikipedia:
The rate of agreement to organ donation is only 45%, which is 50% lower than the rate in most Western countries.[7] The percentage of people who hold an organ donation card in Israel is only 10 percent;[8][9] in Western countries the rate is 30-40%. As a result, there are about 1,000 Israelis currently on the “waiting list” for organs, and it is estimated that roughly 10% of them die annually, due to a lack of donations.[3]
That’s 100 precious Neshamos every year that could have lived longer.
Oomis: Your reason is an idea that I have heard from a lot of people, but has no source that I can recall. The reason that women are Pattur is because there is an explicit Limud from a Passuk like that. In fact, one Tanna holds that women are Mechuyav. It would be very hard to say that we hold of a P’tur due to Pikuach Nefesh but another Tanna held there was a Chiyuv (though I think there’s a Minchas Chinuch that sounds like that, so my proof could be wrong).
Health: Women are Pattur because it’s a G’zeiras Hakasuv. Yevamos 62b I think. Also, not being allowed to be together Mid’rabbanan on Yom Kippur, Tishah B’av, etc. does not make something a Z’man G’rama. And even if there are times when it’s Assur to be together, the Mitzvah of P’ru Ur’vu would still be there, only that you are not allowed to perform it at that time.
DaasYochid: Those posters are wrong. Every organ is usable nowadays if harvested within an hour of death, sometimes more. It was true 10 years ago that they needed organs from a live person. It’s not true today. And while often organs are more useful if harvested before death, the transplant lists are so long and there are people who will die before a live donor comes along that the doctors will use these organs as well.
Zees, I think his point is that it’s ridiculous to call this a “Yiddish Inyan”, in his opinion.
Chana: Nope. Neutering is Assur even for a Goy so giving it to a vet to neuter is Lifnei Iver. They say that Lifnei of Lifnei is Muttar, so you could give it to someone else to give to a vet, but I think some Assur that as well. Just buy a pet that’s already “fixed”. There’s nothing Assur whatsoever about that.
Longarekel: Your rant is nice, but you don’t define “MO”. In fact, no one here who has railed against “MO” has given anything close to a definition.
I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear before. I only meant donations after the person’s heart had stopped beating for everyone, even though I personally think Rav Schachter is right that you can have a heartbeat without the person being alive (a heart in a bathtub can beat for almost 24 hours after it is removed from the body).
PBA: I have spoken personally to many leading Poskim about this. I feel it is a tremendous Pikuach Nefesh and that any Posek who refuses to let people do this is Machshil es Harabbim and Gorem Sakanas Nefashos for many Jews, especially those in Eretz Yisrael where European countries won’t send organs because a very high percentage of Israelis (mostly the communities whose Rabbis won’t let them donate organs) refuse to be organ donors.
Mormons believe that the world will be redeemed when everyone, living and dead, has been converted to Mormonism. They believe that they can convert the deceased by a concept similar to Zachin L’Adam Shelo B’fanav. That is why they keep genealogical records of everyone, not just Jews.
Organ donations after death should be a Chiyuv because of Pikuach Nefesh. And in a case where there is no Jew in need of a kidney or lung, it is still a Chiyuv of Pikuach Nefesh Mishum Eivah. Even now, many countries won’t send organs to Israel because too many Jews aren’t donors. It’s a complete Pikuach Nefesh. Hands down.
HaKatan: Because I am not of the opinion that just because I don’t agree with a certain P’sak of someone that I can throw out him and his entire community as “not keeping with the Torah”.
Also, “figuratively bowing down to the egel hazahav of Zionism” counts as Avodah Zarah? That assertion is laughable.
HaKatan: I know what claims you make. Do you care to back up any of your claims of “intentional and flagrant violations of one of the 3 aveiros chamuros SheBiChamuros”?
Adoneinu Moreinu V’Rabbeinu
Tora Yid: First of all, what’s the Makor that a right to Jewish sovereignty ends with Churban Habayis? Ad’raba, we fast Tzom Gedalia to mourn the end of even a slight Jewish sovereignty, which occurred after the Churban. And second, the Rambam points out that one of the things we celebrate on Channukah is the continues Jewish sovereignty for another 100+ years, even though the rulers and governments there were sometimes far from pro-Torah.
Interesting. I’ll look at the Gemara again but I don’t recall it that way. These are all also mostly brought down in the first Siman of the Aruch Hashulchan, I believe.
Tora Yid: I do find them objectionable. Some people have Heterim for them from their Rabbis (though probably not for ones containing Pritzus). So while I wouldn’t go to one, I can’t honestly say that a person who listens to his Rabbi is inherently wrong (I can think the Rabbi is wrong though). My point remains that HaKatan’s indictment on what he calls “MO” is that some of the people who call themselves “MO” attend Broadway shows. I’m waiting for something more substantial to throw off a large percentage of Frum Jews.
The name is Yosef Shalom ben Chaya Musha. You don’t say HaRav when davening for someone (I feel like this discussion was had on another thread here).
Yungerman: I don’t think it makes them forget their learning. I think it’s one of the things on the list of those which are a Bizayon for a Talmid Chacham to do (Shabbos 114a and the Rambam somewhere in Hilchos Dei’os, I think).
Sam4: The lack of a source is the source.
Hakatan: Until you prove these “MO” “Avlas” and dilutions and distortions of Yiddishkeit (aside from your obvious disdain for those who attend Broadway shows), your hatred spewed towards what you term “MO” remains unfounded.
They quote Rashi in Gittin as saying that the world is flat and I believe there is a T’shuvas Harashba that says so also. I have never seen it inside though I heard it’s a Machlokes in the Yerushalmi whether it’s flat or round. I once tried to give whether the Earth is flat or round as P’shat in the Machlokes in Megillah whether Hodu and Kush were on opposite ends of the Earth or next to each other (if they’re next to each other then ruling over from one to the other is ruling over the whole world if it’s round). We Pasken that it’s round, obviously.
Besalel: Chas V’shalom. I remember the things that I learned from Artscroll better than those I learned from a normal Gemara. Artscroll is an incredible tool to learn how to learn for those who use it properly.
Tora Yid: Not all of the leaders from Beis Chashmonayim later were. And yet the Lashon of the Rambam as to why we celebrate Channukah is that they re-established Jewish sovereignty and kept it for almost 200 (I think) years, even though many of those did not have leaders who were Frum. He makes a good point.
WIY: So say that you feel that this will be a great Z’chus. Calling it a Segulah and guaranteeing or almost guaranteeing it to work for what you want is superstition and Assur.
We don’t invent our own Segulos. There are ways to gain Zechusim. “Almost guaranteeing” a Segulah to work with no Halachic source is an Issur D’Oraisa of Darchei Haemori.
Darchei Ha’emori.
Darchei Ha’emori.
We don’t use the same Challah board for Shabbos/Yom Tov and Pesach, though it’s probably muttar (see Shach Y.D. 91:3, I think).