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If I saw a crazed gun wielding mad person threatening someone, I’m pretty sure I’d jump in front of the individual being threatened. I believe that.
DY
I don’t necessarily blame todays Chinuch as a whole because there are some great trailblazing Mechanchim out there. What some Mechanchim out there don’t realize (or refuse to realize) is that we are living in the year 2011, a confusing, distracting, exciting and frightening time. What was taught (and the way it was taught) in the ‘alte heim’ isn’t going to cut it.
What we DO know is, is that Yiddishkeit is beautiful and it speaks for itself. The way we open up the eyes of children to that has to be with different means than previously used. To stand on ceremony and say that this school/Yeshiva isn’t going to do ‘X’ because it was never done before or insisting that girls uphold a ridiculous level of Tznius in school, when they are going home and they dont even do basics….. to me is the wrong way of approaching things.
THAT whole attitude of not wanting dialogue is exactly what I’m talking about.
Why so defensive?
edited
“then and only then I say instead let it go to a relative of the Heads of Israel.”
EVERYONE is upset, such brutality is inconceivable by humans and I am sure you are speaking from a place of pain, but to wish harm and sadness on another Jew? Inexcusable. Yes, it may seem that the ‘Heads of Israel’ are not doing enough, heck, I’m not even a Zionist! but I’m sure that there is so much more that goes on that unless you are in their position you cant fully understand.
“Most children are better off without a questioning environment.”
I disagree. Emphatically.
Children dont like to be told, “Do xyz because, I said so.”
Heck, no one likes that. When children are taught that questioning is healthy and that they shouldnt be happy with the status quo, they learn to figure things out on their own leading to a sense of fulfillment when they reach the conclusion.
Imagine how much more precious Yiddishkeit would be to you if you ‘discovered’ it on your own? (yes, FFBs can also discover Yiddishkeit) rather than having parents, teachers, rabbeim shoving it down your throat, and whats more being penalizing in the name of ‘Frumkeit’.
“The ones who cerried out that crime are the mules, they are thinking they go streight to paredise, its the people who send them that we need to go after, they are cowerds who are sending someone else, we need to send them too to paredise.” (sic)
What do you propose, that we trade for a bigger fish?
Reasoning doesn’t work with these ‘people’. This isn’t Mafia, they don’t become CI’s. Like you said, they want paradise, they aren’t going to hand it off.
observanteen
I’m not sure where you are from, but I’m not sure it really matters, because there is an organization called Project Chazon which does exactly what you ‘thought’ of.
Project Chazon was started by Rabbi Yerachmiel Milstein and Rabbi Daniel Mechanic to reinforce Yiddiskeit IN Bais Yaakovs and Yeshivas! The idea is to nip any feelings of doubt in the bud and get the girls/boys to ask questions and to think.
When I was in HS we had them come down at least twice, if you are still in HS maybe suggest it to your Principal.
“or surprisingly agile middle ager!”
You have no idea….
Mother in Israel
Bottles for a plane!! (Geez)
“Hmm.. no doubt you now stay in shape stalking / devouring the competition.”
…. and who can refuse that?! 😉
I once made a chocolate mousse bottom with a meringue top (yuuuuum)
But I dont think it would transport well…
“so, at least in a moral sense, you do “owe” something to the “employer””
Not your first born…. Or your sanity.
I’m willing to wager that should the “Employer” find out that this is how you feel (should these feelings be real) he would in turn feel terrible.
Do you honestly believe that your “Employer” expected you to take pictures every single minute of those 5 hours?
Would you feel guilty had you needed the restrooms?
*raises hand*
(SUV)
Remember not everyone drives a Camry 😉
“That is so true! I lose tons of weight when I’m dating someone.”
Meh. That only worked for me when I was adorable and innocent.
bpt
I had to say it after your disclaimer 😉
Nice to see that so many people have the luxury to sit down to breakfast… Me? Diet Peach Snapple as I look through my emails, usually takes me until dinner.
bpt
Youre such a health fanatic!
Suppressing your feelings 😉
SJS
HAIRY! *shudder*
“Sac’s calling me ugly, stupid, or both. :(“
I could also be calling you average and um, average 😉
PY
“Jewish? Not all 85% UGLY. But yes, not attractive.”
Listen, you cant have brains and looks.
pba
Here is where your math is off. If I only find about 15% of the Jewish male population physically attractive and then I state that I need MORE than looks to be attracted to someone, A + B does not equal C.
Furthermore, we are talking about MEN not woman. I think many would agree that Jewish woman are of the prettiest woman in the world. So lets flip that statistic on its head, you can now look for the top 85%. On that you have my Haskama. Altho you should probably ask your wife first.
“Well, 15% is what remains when you skim off 85%.”
You really do just see what you want, dont you?
After my comment about not finding 85% of Jewish men PHYSICALLY attractive I said this:
“Good thing I’m not a guy and I take more than looks in to account ;)”
Did I say I was looking for the top 15%?
EDITED POST
Due to a certain posters insisting that we can not joke in the CR.
Jewish? Not all 85% UGLY. But yes, not attractive.
Good thing I’m not a guy and I take more than looks in to account 😉
“somehow illegitimate and improper for a guy to insist on “pretty” (according to his tastes).”
Perhaps you just need a lesson on phraseology and/or refinement. I believe all you meant to say was that you feel one should be attracted to their spouse. Agreed.
“why is it okay for a guy to want a gorgeous girl when he is ugly?”
Are we talking about like 85% of the Jewish demographic here?
It is I who is doing the dancing, because if I would be able to write what I want to the conversation would be over.
“You will find I said the precise same thing at the beginning of this thread.”
At the beginning of the thread you said, “If you say you need to marry someone who is a supermodel, that is a bit extreme.” Ironically, I have less of an issue with this person than you, because at least he ownes up to being shallow and doesnt hide behind misquoted Gemoras. Furthermore, this individual is only doing himself a disservice because what he considers a supermodel is not everyones definition.
“Within the normal realm, you think that it is like cheeseburgers, an inappropriate desire which can and should be controlled. I think the desire for an attractive (to you) spouse is normal, and proper.”
Clearly you did not understand my point. I have NO PROBLEM w someone wanting to be attracted to their spouse. I have a problem with you constantly saying (not verbatim): this is our nature, its how men are created, we cant help it, woman cant understand…. That is where the cheeseburger comparison came in to play.
pba
We can do this on every thread and dance around the issue. There is a difference between wanting a wife that you are attracted to and wanting to ___________ the minute you see her. One is normal and the other well, youre an animal.
“There are two aspects of this that women will never understand”
Oh believe me, we understand more than you think.
No one is saying you have to marry a dog, but throwing up your hands and saying well, this is how I was created, cant do anything about it, goes against pretty much the whole premise of Judaism.
Heck, I feel like a cheeseburger for lunch. Cant help it, its my nature, I crave meat and milk.
charliehall
“I looked up that gemara last night. It say you aren’t supposed to be repulsed”
Thank you!
Somehow I knew that Gemora was being misquoted.
I read it the first time. I thought it made sense the first time. The follow up was just a cheap cop out.
Popa
Whats w the constant overweight agenda?
The majority of Jewish girls are small (which is a good thing being that the men dont grow taller than 5’7) so why the constant bashing.
In my limited experience w people, I am going to say this is not a surface issue. So what happened, did you marry a girl and she got fat on you?
“Our job now is to set a good example so that hopefully we can get some sanity back in the relationship process”
That being the case, maybe yiddishkeit/middos should have been before looks?
Work, Work, Work, Work, Work and no play.
Lets break this down.
“Is her health something she values?”
AKA men want their woman to WORK OUT.
“Is her appearance something she attends to?”
Whilst most men SAY they dont want someone ‘high maintenance’ they sure do want someone that looks like a million bucks…. all the time.
“Is her and your yiddishkeit / middos on the same page?”
I actually find it ironic that this is only #3 on the list, usually, there is a list and then the OBVIOUS inference that she wants everything you do AKA support you until your dying day.
“Is her appetite a healthy one?”
Nary will you find a girl in Shidduchim, especially in a day and age where if you are a pound over a size 2 you are flicked to the way side, with a healthy appetite.
“Is her self confidence intact?”
Agreed. Confidence looks good on everyone.
Surprise?
Its either going to be a boy or girl. If a puppy comes out that would be a surprise.
“but was completely wrong on the second one.”
Completely? There are only 2 choices. You were just wrong.
hudi
That is someone who is in to their appearance, not high maintenance.
“HOWEVER I AM REALLY NOT MAKING A GENERALIZATION”
Pfft. Too little, too late.
“you MUST chip in towards the gift.”
Is someone going to haul you off to jail if you dont?
I went to a Bais Yaakov too. At the beginning everyone gives, and then the cheapos start dropping and when you are at the point where I am, where you are one of less than 10 left who are unmarried pretty much no one gives.
So, if you want, give. If you dont want, dont give.
Um, its 20 years later.
popa
Your fear is confirmed.
How are you going to dress up like a crack dealer? Lose 50 lbs by Purim and make tracks in your arms?
Sorry gangsta, there is no such word. Did you mean Gaucho?
“I was just wondering why one of the individually wrapped, plastic utensils that SBUX has for free wouldn not have worked for them.”
It tastes better on silverware. duh.
Wolf
Does your Shabbos meal come w a side of Advil?
While I am all about moving OOT, something that I always found interesting was that many OOTers call NYers obnoxious, loud, rude etc But I have never heard a NYer call an OOTer a derogatory name…. Point to ponder
“shaved heads are highly in fashion nowadays for men.”
What about peyos/sideburns?
popcorn
Couldnt agree more.
The one thing I would add:
“B’derech Hatevah that’s how it usually is…”
This is how it is SUPPOSED to be!
Not only is there a generation of men w no work ethic, but a generation of men who arent WILLING to work for ANYTHING, a difficult marriage is included, if it isnt easy and handed to them, it isnt worth it.
“He came to you in pane”
He was stuck in a window? Youch!
Leizor is a fraud an so is Moshe Rose… but we all knew that.
As long as we are on the same page 🙂
DY
I understand that, but dont you see that it does?
Giving a “Yes” to two girls is a game, its called Tag. Whoever catches the Boy first gets him, but what of the other girl, who took an extra day? In your scenario we werent even talking weeks, it could have been hours or minutes!
Boys may think that they are clever and they are going to “play the game right” but when you are playing w someone’s emotions there are no winners only losers, on both ends. Because although you may have snagged the Prize, Hash-m is still keeping score of who you hurt along the way, and in Yiddishkeit the ends dont justify the means.