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Chossid: “All I see is that most of the world holds that the Rebbe was a tzadik and made miracles for everyone, and had ruach hakidesh.”
MOST of the chareidi world does not hold that. Litvaks don’t hold that, Satmar and its affiliates don’t hold that. Even most of the non-chareidi mizrachisten don’t hold that.
Chossid, I would really like to give you credit for trying hard to face our questions and come up with honest acceptable answers. Seriously. I appreciate it. But once you’re brainwashed there’s so little you can do. You wrote:
“The Bal hatanya didn’t go to prison for learning chassidus with his chassidim, rather for spreading chassidus to the masses, meaning he was moiser nefesh to share chassidus with everyone, like we see from the famous story that is told that when he was sitting in jail the Bal Shem tov together with the mazricheh maggid came to him in jail, and told him the reason your setting jail is because there is a gzeira milmeila on you for spreading too much chassidus”1. Where is the source for that? Did the BHT write it himself – in which case please find me a link – or does it come from the fictionalized account of the Rayatz?
2. If both the Mezeritcher Maggid and the BHT believed that it was proper to spread chassidus how could there be a gezeirah in Shamayim against it? Is Hashem not on the correct side, or did he just lose the vote? OK, I can’t claim to be a meivin in shevili Dishmaya but can you bring any non-lubavich example of a decree in Shamayim against something that was proper? Maybe you can and I’d certainly be interested in seeing it.
Chossid: ” chabad is… a shita which stems all the way from the Bal Shem tov to… to reveal Hashem and constantly be conscious about it as much as possible, within out self and the entire world, meaning frum people… [and] non frum people to tell them what Hashem want some of them, that Hashem gave us the torah to the Jews, the chosen Nation….. And to the non Jews explain to them the seven noahide laws.”
The first point has nothing to do with chabad as it applies to all of the Bsh”t talmidim.
The second is something new that is less than 80 years old so it can’t really be called the chabad shitta.
The third, bimchilas kvodo, is stam meshigass.
In answer to whether I know how a sundial works, we made one in third grade as a science project.
Do I know how to make one that is accurate for a particular location for the entire year? No, but you can look that up in wikipedia. Do I know WHY a sundial shows the time and that it CANNOT BE AFFECTED BY TREES ON A MOUNTAIN somewhere beyond the horizon or even close to it? Most definitely yes.
The story says that the sundial had only stopped working for the preceding two years, so it must have been built correctly. Even according to the story the Baal Hatanya did not say there was anything wrong with the sundial. He said it was trees that could not be seen (if they could be seen they wouldn’t have needed the Baal Hatanya to tell them that the trees were blocking the sun!) that were affecting it. I have known since that science project in third grade that only if something blocks the sun the sundial won’t work.
As to your question: “And how would you explain the Gemorah (which doesn’t say how far the object has to be, it just says onc it begins to move something can block it.” You have not only shown that you don’t know how a sundial works, you have also known that you don’t know which Gemoro the story is referring to.
The only quote from the Gemoro in the story is “The Talmud states that at midday the sun is directly overhead”. That’s it. There is no reference in the Gemoro that once it moves something can block it. That was an alleged explanation of the Baal Hatanya. And it is so obvious that I’m beginning to wonder whether you were perhaps born in a cave and have never seen the sunlight and how the sun casts shadows.
Finally, a sundial displays the time in shaos zemanios, so “between two and five in the afternoon” means that the sundial allegedly started malfunctioning two shaos zemanios after midday and the began functioning properly again a sha’ah zemanis before sunset. If you can plant trees that will affect a sundial only at those hours you deserve a Nobel Prize in Science!
CS (welcome back!): “rso I definitely wouldn’t say its creative fiction. A Rebbe doesn’t make stuff up. Also in lubavitch particularly, chassidim and Rebbeim alike have been very careful with every detail of a story transmitted, so it’s not the culture to add in stuff that sound good but aren’t true.”
There are a number of examples I can give you, but here is one of the most obvious (I have edited the quote only by deleting parts that are not relevant to my point. I have not added or changed any of the words):
“On the estate of the Governor of Vitebsk stood a palace, and in the courtyard of this palace stood a sundial. For the past two years, however, this sundial had failed to show the correct time between two and five in the afternoon….
The Alter Rebbe inspected the sundial three or four times, during the hours when it was working, and also when it was not working. After completing his investigation, he said:
“The Talmud states that at midday the sun is directly overhead; thus, nothing except the clouds can obscure it. But in the afternoon, when the sun begins to move westward, it is possible for certain objects to block the sun’s rays.”
He estimated that there had to be a tall hill about twelve to fifteen miles to the south, with tall trees growing on the hilltop. During the three hours from two to five in the afternoon, the trees were blocking the sun’s rays from reaching the sundial. Later, as the sun’s angle changed, its rays could reach the sundial once more…
After that, the Alter Rebbe’s name became well known among the great scientists.”This is clearly fiction, and not only fiction but science fiction written by someone who did not understand how sundials work!
If the trees were too far away to be seen, they would not be able to affect the sun’s rays reaching the sundial. And if they could be seen, then they would be seen blocking the sun’s rays. The explanation allegedly given by the Baal Hatanya does not make any sense. (Just to keep things in greater perspective the average horizon is just over 12 miles away. Had the trees been visible on the horizon they would not have been able to block the sun’s rays for more than about 15 minutes. Not the three hours from 2 to 5 pm.)
For those who don’t realize, the story was written by the Rayatz and you can find it the same way I found it online, by googling sundial alter rebbe.
One important point I would like to make. I am not saying that the Rayatz was wrong in writing fiction. Both R Meir (Marcus) Lehmann and R Yudel Rosenberg wrote fictionalized history in order to attract the Jewish youth of their times and to hopefully keep them away from non-Jewish fiction. But there is a big difference between saying that someone wrote fiction for a reason and saying that he wrote only the truth.
A friend pointed out to me that none of the lubavichers in the forum have objected or even commented to my mentioning twice that the Rayatz’s writings were works of creative fiction. He wanted to know whether that means that even in lubavich it is accepted as such. I told him I don’t think so but that I would ask.
So what do CS et al say?
SHY: “all I said is that some Chassidim won’t place any other Sefer on top of a Tanya… There is no Halacha that says that one MUST place certain Seforim on top of others.”
You’re right that there is no halacha that one MUST place certain sefarim on top of others, but it is still improper if someone doesn’t do so because he “feels” that it is more respectful this way even though halachically there is nothing wrong with it.
“Feeling” this way is tantamount to saying, if I had written the halacha I would have done so differently.
Or perhaps I’m dealing with a Chagas chassid here…
Thanks for your honest (I believe they are, and ניכרים דברי אמת) answers.
Neville: “Sechel: for #4, you think he should be considered the leader of the generation for everyone, including those who don’t hold of Chabad?”
How about SY citing sources, as that was really question no. 4, whether he could prove it without recourse to lubavich sources.
Re the story with the Chazon Ish. I may have got it wrong but I couldn’t find it. I’m not good at searching in the CR. Can someone set me straight about it.
As to question 3 about the Sefer Torah and a Tanya, I have heard it many times. Usually when I am told off for cleaning up some sefarim and putting a Chumash on top of a Tanya. Do you consider that wrong?
And where is TT in this?
CS (in response to the question dealing with virtually all the yeshivishe world denying the tzidkus of the lubavicher rebbe):
“5. False (Rav Moshe Feinstein and R JB Soloveitchik are both litvish among others im sure)”First, I wrote “virtually”
Second,R JB Soloveitchik, although being an amazing Litvishe gaon was not part of the yeshivishe – I wrote yeshivishe, not Litvishe – world. He was an outspoken member and supporter of Mizrachi.
So as we have only Rav Moshe among the yeshivishe world who we know got on very well with the Lubavicher rebbe, I stand by my statement.
I’m ready to start with a list of Yes or No questions – in no particular order – for CS (and TT or any other lubavicher if they are interested). Please just answer Yes or No BEFORE elaborating. I would welcome others adding to the questions. Note one important point: using Lubavich sources or explanations does not hold water when trying to show other non-believers that your view is correct.
(Any question left unanswered will lead me to conclude that CS et al are too scared to publicly answer what they believe.)
1. Is there any reference within the last 500 years to someone being Nassi Hador that does not have Lubavich as its source? If Yes, please cite.
2. Do you believe that ONLY BASED ON THE RAMBAM’s CRITERIA the Lubavicher rebbe is (likely to be) mashiach? If yes, please explain how you see this in the Rambam.
3. Do you believe that a sefer Tanya has the same kedusha as a Sefer Torah and that the latter should not be placed on the former?
4. Can you demonstrate, without lubavich sources, why your rebbe should be considered the leader of the generation?
5. Are we simply to ignore (virtually) the entire yeshivishe world who vehemently deny the tzidkus of your rebbe?
6. Do you believe that a lubavicher bochur who learns chassidus is definitely better than the Chazon Ish who (allegedly) did not?
There are lots more questions I and others could ask, but I am exhausted (and a little “under the weather”) from the simcha I am attending so that’s the best I could do at the moment.
TT: “do you think it’s not because of the misnagdim that he – and lehavdil we – are suffering through since Gimmel Tammuz?!”
I know it’s not. And I think it’s because or the apikorsishe beliefs of people like you.
CS: “as you said earlier that this is something that historically the Chabad teased the chagas chassidim about. And you are Chagas yourself”
This is another one of your lubavich slogans. Chabad vs Chagas (for those who have asked, Chagas stands for Chessed, Gevurah, Tifferes, the first three of the middos, as opposed to Chabad, the mochin). Their denigration of “Poilishe” chassidim is so way off the mark that it would be laughable if it didn’t cause so much damage.
Learn our sefarim, listen to what our Rebbe (actually Rebbes, because there are groups other than mine) demands, and you’ll be shocked at how you were brainwashed and your head filled with absolute lies.
There is no more “Poilishe” chassidus nowadays than Chabad with all the Yechi garbage and all the relying on hergesh (one example of many: a lubavicher relative who was present when the minyan started, davened shachris after chatzos because, as he told me, he wasn’t “ready” to daven earliler. I watched him daven late and he davened no differently than he had davened any other day), and no differently than any of the other lubavichers who had davened with the minyan.)
You can call me Chagas or whatever you want, but just now that you are totally brainwashed! Have you ever discussed this with a non-lubavicher Chassidishe Yid, i.e. not some story you heard from the daughter of a rebbe, or the like?
“Yom Kippur Kattan that was established by Chacmei Hasha”s, is mentioned in the Talmud”
Can you please give me a source for that?
“Guy 2 – Holds there isn’t going to be ANY Moshiach.”
Hold on. That’s not a snag by anyone’s definition. That’s an apikorus. Of course, in lubavich they may be closely related, but they’re not the same.
CS: “in normal situations we ask what the halacha is and don’t rely on how neshama deep it is. But it can definitely add. And in rare cases even be relied upon (such as pinchas, Queen Esther etc)”
1. You are neither of those two tzaddikei olam, and you won’t deny that, so your proof is non-existent.
2. Just as you think it “adds”, reform and conservative also claim it adds. But it doesn’t. It detracts.Have you ever thought something was right/correct/proper and later discovered to your dismay that it wasn’t? If you have then you have no way of being sure of what resonates with your neshama as opposed to your yetzer hara. And if you haven’t, then you are not human.
Btw just to make it perfectly clear, this is not an argument against lubavich, it is an argument against your personal philosphy. Of course, you may very likely claim that it is lubavich philosophy, in which case it wll be agains lubavich.
I will BH be at a close relative’s simchah until early next week, so my reading and posting will probably only be intermittent.
The only reason I’m telling you this is so that you won’t assume shtikah kehoda’ah if I don’t argue with CS 🙂
CS: “Rso: Imagine a goy came up to you and said do you believe “Atem kruim adam vain haakum korui adam?” Yes or no. That would not be very fair at all. Because what you mean by yes and what he understands by yes is very different.”
Not the same at all. If a goy would start a thread based on what HE believes in, I wouldn’t join it. If a Yid starts a thread that tries to distort what I believe in I would – and do and am – reply to it and try to get things straight.
CS: “I guess if you’ve never experienced it you won’t know what I’m talking about. But I also know this feeling is experienced by many I have come in contact with as well.
…
…So what am I talking about? How about the shabbos atmosphere after candle lighting. That neshama sense of holiness. Goyim don’t have that. So that’s a start to understand what I’m talking about.
But really what I mean is when something clicks to the core of the neshama and uplifts the whole person with the resulting joy.”You’re missing the point. How do you know that it is “clicking” with your neshama and not with your yetzer hara. What you are describing above is what most lubavichers make fun of as Chagas/Poilisher-chassidus!
Not frum Yidden are still full Yidden, so why shouldn’t they think that something they have learnt in a reform temple, and which is R”L against the Torah, is “clicking with their neshama”. It’s very dangerous ground that you are treading.
I once had someone tell me that he has a spiritual uplift when the Yankees win a game! Seriously. He really thought that it clicked with his neshama.
A number of us seem to be having great difficulty in getting Yes or No answers to direct questions from CS. Perhaps we should compile a list of those questions and then nag and nag until we get answers.
I would suggest that to be fair CS should be allowed to give explanations to her Yes or No answer, but only in a different post after having first answered the question.
If people agree we need someone to compile the list. Any takers?
CS: “What I meant by Eliyahu hanavi and har hacarmel was that rashi there says that someone who is known to you to be a tzadik (or whatever equivalent term is used), you follow him unless he tells you to serve another god or permanently cancels a mitzvah.”
As far as I remember it is not at all an equivalent term. It is a navi who is known to be a true navi. We don’t have one of those nowadays, regardless of the outlandish claims of the Lubavicher rebbe.
CS: “Regarding ahavas yisrael (syag, Rso)…”
I don’t know why I got a mention here. I didn’t question the meaning of Ahavas Yisrael. What I did say was that I don’t believe your statement – and I have heard it many times from many lubavichers – that your rebbe loved every Jew.
CS: “everyone, while remaining in their own kreiz, with their own unique minhagim and chumros etc, should unite under the Rebbe/ the Rebbe’s horaos and if this would happen for sure moshiach would be here, no doubt about it….”
I believe that it will delay the coming of Mashiach because he was not fit to be the ultimate leader of Klal Yisrael and many of his views, as I have explained in the past, were warped!
You included me in a reply about who could and who could not be Mashiach. I don’t believe I discussed that point, although I may have tangentially.
Finally (for this post) PLEASE stop using the ridiculous “Nossi Hador” title for your rebbes. The title is meaningless and has no source or basis. If you don’t stop I’ll make up a title for someone, say, “Nimlach al yedei Hashem” and I will point out that since by definition that person is the only one with the title it must be true.
The Lubavicher rebbe is NOT a nassi, neither was his father-in-law, neither were any of his ancestors for the last hundreds of years.
CS (and maybe others), I don’t know why I didn’t think of this before, but what kind of a proof is it that your rebbe was so great because of so many gedolei Yisrael who said so?
There are many gedolei Yisrael who can claim exactly the same thing. In fact, they can claim far greater numbers because they will include Litvishe gedolim.
Their are two differences that falsely make your claim look better than theirs.
1. For the last decades of his life your rebbe didn’t visit anyone else. People had to come to him. (That’s why Lubavich “hated” PM Shamir, as he alone refused to come to 770 and be part of a lubavich PR photo-op.) Other rebbes and gedolim were visited and went visiting. So they didn’t appear to be so special with everyone davke visiting them.
2. Other rebbes and gedolim didn’t have teams of PR people whose job (either self-commissioned or commissioned by the rebbe’s attendants) was to show the world how everybody meets, greets and praises the lubavicher rebbe. I personally know of quite a few Israeli Rebbes who spend a lot of their valuable time being mechabed other gedolei Yisrael on the latters’ territory for the sake of Shalom and achdus. They don’t just wait for others to come to them and thereby seem to be more special.
As to something else you wrote about the shlichim caring etc, don’t forget, it’s also what makes them prestigious in the lubavich world AND it brings in parnassa. Please note that I wrote something along the lines of knowing many who seem to care sincerely. I stand by that. However, I personally know others who have opened chabad houses in areas that encroach on other chabad houses and who have caused machlokes within chabad. This isn’t lesheim Shamayim, and this does not show that they care about others, even though they may be really nice to their visitors because they have to keep up the numbers. (Opening chabad houses in frum areas and causing problems has already been mentioned by others.)
CS: “This is of course subjective but I am over 15 and haven’t felt anything inappropriate “resonate” neshama wise that is against Torah. Found a cool idea? Maybe. But not something that deeply resonates”
I think you missed the point. How do you know that what you consider “resonating with your neshama” is not yetzer hara? What about all the born again xians for whom oso ha’ish “resonated” with ther souls? What about all those people in love with people with whom they should not have a relationship for numerous reasons who feel the “resonation”? The fact that you believe that what resonates with your neshama is pure does not prove anything.
CS, you have said a number of times (or perhaps it has just been copied and pasted a number of times) that many gedolie Yisrael held highly of the Lubavicher rebbe. While that is probably true, there are also many gedolei Yisrael – including virtually all Litvishe gedolim – who did not.
If, as you say, your rebbe loved every Yid, then that includes Litvaks, so we can’t just ignore them even if we may disagree with them.
And there were also Chassidishe rebbes who did not hold your rebbe in high esteem.
Is anyone out there going to point out that the Lubavich rebbe’s defence of what someone said about the Chason Ish is disgusting?
SH: “Shluchim aren’t out there to “convert people to Chabad” they’re there to influence people to increase in their Torah and Mitzvos. Hafotzas HaMayonois doesn’t mean making people Lubavitch, it means spreading the teachings of Chassidus to the general public, and that is not limited to Chassidus Chabad, other Chassidus also perfectly fits the bill, whether it be Noam Elimelech, Kedushas Levi or Sfas Emas, doesn’t make a difference.”
Wow! That is really nice, and I hope you mean it. The problem, however, is that that is not the general haskafah of many/most Lubavicher chassidim who see it as their duty to preach to frum people that Chabad chassidus and their way of life is the best.
I believe that most of the non-lubavichers on the list are in total agreement with my above understanding.
syag: “Seckel Hayashar says he must have intimate exposure to Lubavitch, and CS’s problem is that he isn’t nice?! So it’s not lies or wrong or insanities, it’s just not how we speak to a yid….”
I was wondering sort of the same thing. TT’s tone was abominable, but let’s imagine he would have worded it all very civilly, would CS have disagreed with what he said?
So can CS please clarify that?
TT: “Vechi deilotor ani loch?! Those who need to know, know.”
Applying “deilotor” (sic) to telling me what YOUR rebbe said is very weird. It applies to telling lashon hara. Unless you are of the opinion that saying what your rebbe said about these people is lashon hara. I can hear that…
“R Shach is ES and everyone knows what he said
A& is R Aharon Kotler, not sure what he said”
I know what THEY said. I want to know what the Lubavicher rebbe said about them.
CS: “Listen, what made the Rebbe so great? As you said mishichmoi ulmaala etc? It was his ahavas yisrael for every yid no matter who and what level they were.”
Except for “AK”, “ES”, Satmar and all the others who he denigrated.
This claim of the Lubavich rebbe loving every Jew is something that is said so often that people accept it as fact without any proof. How do we know that he loved EVERY Jew? How do we even know that he loved MANY Jews?
Even if trying to be mekarev them was altruistic (which I have “questioned” in an earlier post) that doesn’t show the he loves every Jew, and certainly in light of the fact that he clearly wanted to be Mashiach – him, no one else – makes it very easily possible that it was self-serving.
“Even when the Rebbe spoke about Rav Shach, he never attacked him personally”
That’s not true. While he may not have mentioned him by name he did refer to him as Seridei Choshech.
TT: “A simple yes or no question – do you have any respect for AK (I won’t even get started with ES)? If the answer is yes, you are the ones being mevazeh the Rebbe after what he said about him, not me.”
For those of us who don’t have direct quotes, how about you tell us what your rebbe said about them?
CS: “Rso with regards to other exceptions to the rule of yeridas hadoros I would point you to Rashbi among others.”
Please supply a source. And if you manage to do that please explain how you can then say that just as Rashbi was an exception so is someone else who I choose.
That’s like saying that since Chazal explained that cooking on Shabbos is forbidden I extend that and say that cooling things down is also forbidden.
Btw the story you bring about a friend who found that the meshichisten have valid Torah sources/proofs is really worthless if you don’t tell us that proofs. Anyone can claim anything using that method.
Uncle Ben: “Mr. Tomim; I have yet to hear a mekor in the Torah for a designated live individual as Moshiach who thereafter died and is still designated as Moshiach min meisaya.”
Where have you been living for the last quarter century. He’s not dead!
TT: “Yes, my kashe was spiked – with Chassidus, with Emunas Cahchomim, with bittul!”
Bittul is the one that stands out here the clearest.
“Because while it is clear to everyone that he doesn’t really represent Chabad, he does prove the point we’ve been making all along.”
He is either a real lubavicher to the right of center who doesn’t believe in keeping what he believes quiet (there are lots of those) or he is someone who knows Lubavich very very well. All his comments and leshonos (aside from the Shofech Domim one) are stuff that I have heard from one person or another. It’s just that he put it all together and posted it.
TomimTihyeh: ” vi der Rebbe Rashab n”e hut geheist”
I believe there’s a grammatical error in the Yiddish here. Anyone agree with me?
Btw, from one of the other posts I figured out who shofech domim is. But why doesn’t BG (and I don’t mean Ben Gurion) get a mention?
“oisoi hoish and the shoifech domim”
I think I know who you mean by the first one, and it’s not yoshke, but who is the second one? Even I, who pride myself on knowing so much about lubavich can’t figure it out.
Is it BG?
TomimTihyeh, I couldn’t have said it better myself!
CS in response to me questioning her as to why the Rashba was only “more likely” greater than her rebbe when she herself quoted “im rishonim kemalachim…”: “once in awhile the may be an individual who is unlike the rest of the generation although the general status of each generation and the standard required to be considered a Torah leader in general declines”
Is there the slightest possibility that you are of the opinion that the lubavicher rebbe might just be someone who is unlike the rest of the generation and that he could therefore, just possibly of course, be greater than anyone of earlier generations?
Seems to me, and I have a great tendency to see things stupidly, you believe the maamar Chazal epplies to everyone except to your rebbe.
Where’s your source for coming up with “exceptions” to this maamar Chazal? Please let me know because maybe I can then use your logic to come up with exceptions to other maamarei Chazal that I don’t feel so happy with.
CS: “Regarding what you see as problems in lubavitch that result from the Rebbes shittos, the only way to properly discuss that is to analyse the extent of the problems in our community and yours and see which is worse. Since as Daas yochid pointed out that is not ok as it infringes on issurim, I have retracted that mode of addressing it and I would advise you and DY as well to abide by the same halacha I am being expected to abide by.”
1. You are implying that my community suffers from what you hinted to. They definitely do NOT! I know this for a fact and, as you may have noticed, I am a cynic and not someone who just believes what feels good. So your implication is offensive. On the other hand, I DO know a lot of what goes on in Lubavich and the situation is NOT good, to say the least. As we have mentioned, where there is a lack of tznius there is ALWAYS a lack of kedusha R”L.
2. It’s not lashon hara if there is a clear to’eles, and the to’eles I’m aiming for is twofold. First, to show you and your colleagues that you have what to fix up urgently before preaching. Second, to warn others of the situation so that they shouldn’t be blindly caught up by your nice friendly explanations of how fantastic lubavich is. Your chassidus’s lack of tznius is a great danger to everybody who is involved with them, and IMHO it is even more dangerous than a lot of the other stuff I have been protesting..
CS, as far as I recall (don’t have sefarim handy) the same Rashi that says that the father has to teach his son Torah, and that if he doesn’t it is as if he buries him (c”v) also says that the father should speak to him in Lashon Kodesh.
Just pointing it out and wondering why that wasn’t stressed by your rebbe. Btw not attacking, just wondering why the lack of consistency..
Neville, you have a point as I don’t really know how the MO Litvishe girls dress so I shouldn’t have made a blanket statement that seems to include them.
But in regards to chassidishe girls from chareidi families, there is no question that Lubavich girls dress with the least tznius.
And to clarify, there are two areas of tznius: one is clothing that covers all areas that need to be closed, and the other is clothing that does not attract overdue attention even when covering those areas. The fact is that unfortunately lubavich is the worst in both those areas.
Of course there are some very tzniusdik lubavich women, but overall the level of tznius in Crown Heights and in other lubavich enclaves is very depressing.
Sorry, CS, that I reposted my question about the Rashba after you had already addressed it but before it appeared on my screen.
Here is what you wrote: “They were definitely both tzaddikim. More likely the Rashba was greater as he lived in a much earlier generation.”
More likely!!! What happened to your quote of “im harishonim…”? Are there exceptions? It seems as if you think there may be. If that’s the case you shouldn’t have quoted it as an inviolable rule.
CS: ““Other Chassidus’ may wish that to be true, may even wish to believe it to be true however they Won’t actually believe it”
And to me that is just another tribute to our Rebbe. The fact that we actually believe it”
Wow! That is so childish! Because your level of belief in your rebbe is greater than someone else’s belief in his rebbe it is a tribute to your rebbe?!
“My tatty is greater than your tatty because I believe my tatty can fly and you don’t believe your tatty can fly!”
Using your logic, it is a tribute to Oso Ha’ish that his followers think he is the son of G-d c”v.
What you believe doesn’t about your rebbe doesn’t indicate his level of greatness but it may indicate your level of brainwashing.
CS: “So the simple pshat reading of the posuk is that lama nigara isn’t a request as in why not, it is a protest and demand for the right to fulfil it because they don’t want to miss out for doing something good! In that case, Moshe rabbeinu says, let me see whet Hashem says. Hashem also didn’t respond with an explanation as to why they are going to miss out. Rather He gave them a new mitzvah and opportunity so they shouldn’t miss out. I hope this clarifies in case it wasn’t clear enough before.”
Clearly wrong. There is no interest. A question as to why they should miss out when they were being osek in a mitzvah and became tamei.
I see that you will not concede this one, and I believe that all the non-lubavich regular poster here agree with me, so I’m willing to let it drop. If I’m wrong about the other posters, will they please let me know.
Now, you have totally ignored a different question; Do you believe that the Rashba was greater than your rebbe, based on your quote (slightly misquoted but pretty close) about “im rishonim kemalachim…”?
Please reply.
CS: “I can take one example: your first one. “Worst tznius in Chassidic world.”
No. Just a different standard. The Rebbe asked us to dress like beis Yaakov. And I would say that the chassidishe women do dress that way.”
Then why do quasi-official chabad websites bemoan the lack of tznius in Crown Heights? The entire chareidi Jewish New York knows that the tznius in Crown Heights is worse than in any other chareidi area.
Then there are the other two problems that I pointed out that are connected to the tznius issue: unfiltered internet and the mixing of genders. Yes, there are some valiant people who try to fight the prevailing situation within Lubavich in these areas, but they are few and far between. It is a huge problem, and it is undoubtedly caused by “the rebbe wanted us to be open and mix with the outside world”. I think that that was one of his biggest mistakes.
CS, everybody who has ever discussed this matter with a lubavicher has heard the hints that you make – “You wouldn’t believe some of the disgusting things that go on in Satmar/Pupa/Belz/whatever, but I’d rather not talk about it!” – and some of the stories may be true Rachmana litzlan. There is a yetzer hara everywhere and human beings fall occasionally. But to cite that as an excuse for short skirts etc in Lubavihc all over the world. (I have already written that I have been in chabad houses in five continents and dealt closely with chabad chassidim in many countries.) If the Torah says be tzniusdik then you have to be tzniusdik regardless of what someone else does. Unfortunately, Lubavich worldwide is MUCH worse in this area than all other chareidi groups.
Furthermore, I believe there is a very simple truth which you are denying. Less tznius and more mixing of genders ALWAYS means more aveiros. If the stories you hint to about other more tzniusdik groups of chassidim are true, then there must be a greater number of similar stories in Lubavich.
CS: “Neville to Assange your concerns”
A bit of unexpected and unwitting comedy to lighten the dark winter days and nights! Assange is the guy who is holed-up in the Ecuadorian embassy in London because of wikileaks. I think you mean assuage.
Neville: “their other trick is to dismiss anyone who criticizes the Rebbe as “Anti-Semitic against Chabad.” This lose-lose situation has been pointed out before, but it never makes any difference.”
I don’t see it as a lose-lose as long as I am allowed to air my views and opinions in a clear manner, as the mods here have thankfully allowed. It is a lose-lose situation on a predominantly lubavich website, and I have never posted on one of those.