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SHY I found the magazine online! It’s called “A Chassidisher Derher” and it’s on page 53 of the Kislev edition which is only excerpted online. I searched for the quote I gave above and it showed up in a result but it seems that the preview keeps changing so it may not always appear.
At any rate, I’m sure you have access to the actual magazine. The quote is most definitely there.
SHY, I quoted the exact words as it appears in a fairly new English chabad monthly which I just became aware of a few weeks ago. It’s called Derher, or something similar.
Back to the tznius issue, if I may.
Just this afternoon I was shown – I have friends who know that I am posting and provide me with things that they think I may find useful – a lubavich magazine that gives lots of details of the wedding of the lubavicher rebbe exactly 90 years ago in Kislev. There were two things there that caught my eye.
The first was a picture of the rebbetzin on her wedding day in her wedding dress. Have you ever seen any picture of any other rebbishe kallah portrayed openly for all to see? I haven’t.
The second is a quote by the person who was the shomer of the rebbe during the entire day and he is describing the badeken: “I saw the beautiful kallah inside the garden, attired in a beautiful dress.”
If this is what lubavich was like 90 years ago, it is no wonder that it is where it is today!
CS: “I’ll ask him to please explain that to me according to Rambam etc. And then I can report back. Lmk if this would be helpful”
Interesting? Yes. Fodder for our views? Certainly. Helpful to your viewpoint? You will probably think so but I’m sure we will all see it differently.
Chossid: “Rso please explain how you see from the Gemorah you quoted that “Aderaba the fact that they keep even three things is part of the cause of our lengthy golus” I see that since they are ONLY keeping 3 and not ALL is a reason that we are in golus.
Please correct me if I’m wrong”I understand Ulla to be saying that it is not 30 tzaddikim of the umos that keep them alive but the three mitzvos that they still keep (and, as an aside, we know that at least two of them are not kept nowadays ayin shom). I see now, though, that it can be interpreted differently.
CS: “Fortunate is he who waits etc.: Forty five years are added to the above number, for our Moshiach is destined to be hidden after he is revealed and to be revealed again…””
The one you believe to be mashiach was never revealed because he isn’t!
I’m sort of disappointed that you haven’t trotted out all the old “proofs” that he is mashiach by misquoting and misinterpreting the sources. You know what I mean. Like, “A king from the House of Dovid”. Well the rebbe was a king, and he was from the house of Dovid because he told us so…
kasierW you didn’t give the full quote of the Rambam:
וכן צוה משה רבינו מפי הגבורה לכוף את כל באי העולם לקבל מצות שנצטוו בני נח, וכל מי שלא יקבל יהרג
This is not shayah nowadays.
You’re claim that the main thrust of the campaign is for people who deal with goyim anyway is interesting. I wonder whether that is the accepted view.
But your claim that your rebbe gave guidelines, and that the cards calling “cruelty to animals’ one of the mitzvos are not “officially” endorsed, is part of the problem.
There is no leadership in lubavich because your rebbe unfortunately didn’t have kids and he didn’t designate a successor. So today it’s איש כל הישר בעיניו יעשה with all opinions claiming that they have the support of the rebbe. As I just recently posted, it shows a lack of long-range thinking.
CS: “A very respected Mashpia I know of (and respected by all communities of where he lives not just lubavitch,) when asked about the Rebbe being moshiach, simply replies, “Do you have a better candidate?””
This has been a standard lubavich rejoinder for many years. Even before the (alleged) passing of the lubavicher rebbe.
Personally, I know literally hundreds of better candidates that I can name (but won’t here for a number of reasons). They are yirei Hashem, exceptional talmidie chachomim, have limitless ahavas Yisrael without publicizing it, and they have two advantages over the lubavicher rebbe: 1. they do not try to promote themselves, and 2. they don’t put people in spiritual danger by misleading them or allowing them to be influenced badly.
Oh yeah. There is a third advantage: 3. they are alive!
CS: “If I’m wrong, simply list another leader of klal Yisrael today who sends out his best and brightest for life to help the frum, not yet frum, and opens institutions to help those who fight him.”
Aside from the claim I have already made earlier that your rebbe’s kavonah in this was to draw attention to himself and to claim the leadership that you have attributed to him, there is another problem. Some of “his best and brightest” have gone off because of being influenced the not yet frum, and Rachmono litzlan MANY lubavich families have kids who have gone off the derech for the same reason. There is clearly a far greater percentage of lubavich kids from frum homes who have gone off than there are in other chassidic groups. Hashem yeracheim!
Your rebbe did not have the long-range view that other rebbes had, and lubavich is suffering from it today. (See my earlier post about tznius.)
One further point. Claiming to care about everybody, and being the only one making a big PR deal about it does not show that he is the only one who really cared.
The Satmarer Rebbe also cared about everybody, which is why he tried to spread his shitah about Zionism all over. He too was concerned that there were Yidden in the far reaches of the world who were, in his view, being accomplices to avodah zoroh. Now you and I don’t agree with that, but we would surely agree that if, say, voting in the Israeli elections is indeed an act of avizraihu d’avodah zoroh, working to prevent it is probably more important than to get someone to put on tefillin. So he cared just as much as your rebbe did.kaiserW: “Interesting point. Would you hold the same of the thousands of yidden learning in kollel (in USA and EY)?They have strong societal pressure, and get (some sort of) paycheck from it?
How about the melamdim, ram”im, roshei yeshivos?”100%. We are all no less human than the lubavichers I am criticizing, and we all have our social pressures and inner issues. Just because we may do the right thing and choose the right lifestyle it doesn’t mean that we are doing it for the right reason.
Now obviously it’s better to live a life according to the rules even if it’s not lesheim Shamayim than to live a life that goes against the rules. But it’s another thing again to claim that we are doing it lesheim Shamayim.
The same is true of the chabad houses. To say that they have altruistic motives is being naive, but to say that what they do is very often good is still true. Moreover, once other Yidden benefit from them – whether it’s frum Yidden getting a kosher meal, or non-frum Yidden finding out it is Chanukah – it is automatically a commendable achievement.
Chossid: “Rso: The third, bimchilas kvodo, is stam meshigass.
If you can please explain why.”There is no inyan of arvus in encouraging goyim to keep their mitzvos. Aderaba the fact that they keep even three things is part of the cause of our lengthy golus. See Chullin bottom of 92a and top of 92b.
Also, it means that when trying to encourage the keeping of the sheva mitzvos more bochurim come in contact with goyim and goyishe values. It’s bad enough when they come in contact with the values that non-frum Yidden have, but this can be even more dangerous.
Furthermore, it is an innovation that is ridiculous because it leads to distorting the Torah. Just look at the “Seven Mitzvos for Sevtnty Nations” cards and pamphlets that are distributed which contain the “mitzvah” of being kind to animals.(Some actually say that the mitzvah is not to eat the limb of a live animal, but the explanation they give below that is to be kind to animals.)
The mitzvah is not to eat eiver min hachai, and that has nothing to do with being kind to animals. If a goy will put an animal to sleep, amputate its leg, and then kill it while it is still asleep, he will be a lot kinder to the animal than when he kills it by shooting it in a forest. But in the former case the leg is eiver min hachai while in the latter it is muttar lechatchillah.I stand by what I wrote that it is a meshigass, and I have NEVER heard a non-lubavicher of any stripe think differently.
Chossid: “Don’t you think theee is something behind there ahavas Yisrael thats getting them to go in this crazy places…”
I’m sure on occasion it’s Ahavas Yisrael that is their impetus, but knowing MANY chabad house directors I am also sure that it is often just a matter of finding a job – sometimes a hard job – that gives you kovod within your own circle and in a community of people who don’t know any different.
What about all the fights when shlichim open up chabad houses that encroach on other shlichim’s territories? Is that a manifestation of Ahavas Yisrael?
What about the fights with the “mushrooms” (I’ll let you explain what I am referring to if you feel like it.) If these people are doing the same rebbe’s work that the official shlichim are doing, why are they considered out of line and “mushrooms”?Chossid: “Have you ever considered that maybe you hashkofa is messed up? Just wondering.”
Yes, in fact I often do. And that’s why I have my hashkafos checked regularly during my discussions with erliche talmidei chachomim who are yirei Shamayim, who are far better than me, and who have fundamental beliefs that are accepted across the spectrum of the Torah world, unlike the hashkofos of almost all lubavichers. On the other hand, if you mean do I open an Igros at random to see whether I’m right or not, then the answer is no.
Chossid: “Why does the fact that they are lacking in tzius, make that everything else is wrong?”
That’s a fair question but I have an honest answer. Kedushah is a prerequisite of chassidus and yiras Shamayim. That is what ALL other groups of chassidim were mekabel from the Baal Shem. (It’s possible that lubavich was also mekabel that but somewhere along the line it seems to have been forgotten or just not mentioned.) As a number of us have said in the past, a lack of tznius must mean a lack of kedushah. There is no other way of interpreting it. Therefore, if there is a lack of tznius in lubavich – and I’m not just referring to dress, I’m also referring to mixing of the genders and improper interaction between them in speech and manner, as I’ve also pointed out before – there must be a distinct lack of kedusha. You yourself have admitted that tznius is a problem. So you can’t expect us to accept that lubavich is anywhere near the top of the kedushah pyramid and that we should therefore take your hashkofos in chassidus seriously.
The last paragraph, by the way, was not written vindictively or with any ulterior motive of winning an argument and silencing you or anyone else. It is an honest explanation of why I and others look down on lubavich based on their levels of tznius.
Chossid: “You still didn’t tell me which GADOL said agenst the Rebbe and what exactly did he say and what did the Rebbe say back.”
I don’t know which statement of mine you are referring to, but there are MANY Litvishe gedolim who spoke out openly against your rebbe, and there are also a number of chassidishe rebbes who did.
Chosid: “The only thing I stupid is that you say that a Rebbes sforim are fiction based on your 3rd grade science class. Is totally outrageous. Now that doesn’t mean that your not allowed to have questions, but saying right away that it’s all fiction based on your little brain, is really out of place. Did any gadol gold that? Or science master?”
Gee, what’s with “third grade” that really gets you so upset. The point I made was that I first learned about sundials in third grade, not that my understanding of them is only what I learned in third grade. I have since read about sundials numerous times, even after finishing fourth grade!
Get this straight: A sundial can’t be affected the way it says in the story. I challenge you to get any frum, not frum or lehavdil goyishe scientist to explain how the story works. You won’t find anyone who isn’t a lubavicher or drunk (or more likely, both) who will say the story makes sense. Therefore, the story is untrue.
Now, either the Rayatz also didn’t have a clue or he was writing fiction. You choose which one of the two I should believe because there is no third option. The size of my brain, or lack thereof, is irrelevant.
CS, careful you don’t have an attack here because you’re going to be very surprised at what I’m about to say:
You’re explanation about what rankles chabad representatives in their chabad houses made perfect sense! I have absolutely no criticism to level at it!
(And I didn’t even mention a sundial once :). Oops. Now I did.)
CS: ” I think it’s pretty clear that you don’t regard the Rebbe as a tzadik and pulling apart and responding to that post wouldn’t make a whit of a difference to you”
If you mean, your attempt to pull it apart and rebut, you are 100% correct, as your attempts in that area so far have not convinced any of the posters, including those who have dropped out.
“As far as “Lubavitchers believe what they want and don’t let the facts get in the way ” aside from the fact that sundials are not in use today etc and you don’t know the topography of the given place etc.”
You’re doing it again. Topography has NOTHING to do with it. The story is ridiculous and you are making yourself look even more ridiculous every time you try to justify it. Note, none of the other lubavichers in the forum have argued with me. They don’t understand the story, they probably wouldn’t like to admit that it’s fiction, so they just don’t say anything. But you keep going on about sundials being out of use and who knows what other garbage which just makes you appear really stupid. Sorry, but there isn’t any other word that expresses it correctly. By doing so you make not only yourself look stupid but lubavich too.
“Aside from that, yes science can and does err all the time. It is not absolute. Even by sciences standards everything is a certain percentage of likelihood and there is no 100%. Whereas Torah and Tzaddikim are 100% true.”
Yes. Science can and does err. But this story is fiction.
My advice: say something like, “You have a good point, and I can’t answer your question,” and leave it at that. Cut your losses.
Chosid: ” You still didn’t tell me which model said agenst the Rebbe and what exactly did he say and what did the Rebbe say back.”
???
“Yes just because Lubavitche happens to be a very successful through out the world, doesn’t mean you have to find all the problems to put them down and a say all the loshen horoah and moitzi Shem rah.”
That’s not why I say all the bad things about them, and your response is typical of lubavich going on the attack instead of addressing the issues. I have said a number of times that lubavich does fantastic things in the area of Ahavas Yisroel, but their hashkofos are really badly messed up. Their chauvinism, which btw is totally misplaced, their claims to have the Mashiach when they are lacking so much tznius and derech eretz, are a joke, and it is that type of activity that I continue to attack.
(By the nachinal menorah Rabbi Shem tov was holding the torch together with him.)”
Yes, you’re right there and I was wrong. However, it is very misleading and I don’t think it should be done that way.
While on the topic of lubavich public relations, there is a video of the first night of Chanukah with Secretary Ryan Zinke lighting the Chanukah candle, Not just the shamash, but the candle as well.
Zinke. although a good friend of Israel, is a lutheran non-Jew. Is there nothing that they will do for PR in lubavich?
As a good chassidishe (non-lubavich) Israeli friend of mine has said to me on more than one occasion when bemoaning what has become of lubavich, “This is what happens when a chassidus based in America adopts Ameican values.”
CS about the sundial story (I forgot to add this at the end of my last post): “to use that to say the entire book is fiction seems silly to me”
OK. So let’s agree that the entire book is not fiction. Just the parts that he made up are.
CS (finally replying to my sundial nagging): “As far as the sundial thing, I’ll just reiterate that I stand by my above post addressing that, and will also add that in the story itself, it notes that the sundial not working only several hours a day was not a common thing (ie most sundials do not work that way) and it had puzzled many great experts for that reason.
So yeah to take a prototype sundial experiment from third grade, when sundials are not even in use nowadays and to use that to say the entire book is fiction seems silly to me.”Thank you for proving the point that has been made numerous times: Lubavichers believe what they want to and never let facts get in the way.
I would like to let you in on a little secret. By the time I was in third grade I could read fairly well. But that doesn’t mean that my reading hasn’t improved since as probably every day since then I have practiced that skill. Similarly, in third grade I understood the basic workings of a sundial, but my understanding has improved over time.
Some things, however, don’t change. Just as I still read the words “the cat is wearing a hat” the same way I did in third grade, so too sundial work the same way they did then. And, now please try to get this point, there is no way that trees, mountains, Superman or even the lubavicher rebbe can make a sundial not work between the hours of 2 and 5 in the afternoon. This is true even if they can be seen. NOTHING can affect the working of a sundial if they can’t be seen.The reason the sundial “puzzled many experts” is very simple. Those experts were as fictional as the sundial!
One more point about it. The story clearly tells us that it was not some koach hatumah that affected the sundial. If that was the case I could bedieved have accepted it. But according to the story it was something scientific that the Baal Hatanya knew. That is fiction!
CS, you are very frustrating because you write such garbage – I believe that you believe it – that it’s hard for me to know where to start.
In a nutshell:
1. I don’t care how you justify your calling your rebbe Nossi Hador. The term does NOT exist except in lubavich circles. It was invented by guess who and it applies to him.2. Your claim that your rebbe loved every Jew is disproven by the fact that he fought with so many gedolei hador over so many things. He prohibited Satmar hechsheirim, he called Rav Shach a derogatory name etc. Of course he made up an excuse that was “lesheim Shamayim” for each case, but to say he loved every Jew because that’s what you decided is not acceptable.
3. Countless other Chassidishe Rebbes cared more about Yidden woldwide than your rebbe did. Your rebbe’s clear agenda was to promote Lubavitch and himself (as Mashiach). That’s why he liked his picture plastered everywhere. That’s why he accepted a tambourine emblazoned with the words “Yechi…” from a looney women who begged him to reveal himself as Mashiach etc and he didn’t tell her that she was talking garbage. That’s why when in 5743 (I think it was Simchas Torah) when they started singing “Yechi…” he made them stop because it would push people away from lubavich, and NOT because it was just the wrong thing to do. That’s why he had to have all politicians and gedolei Yisroel come to him and he wouldn’t go to them. (I think I have already mentioned that in lubavich they hated PM Shamir because he refused to come to 770.) I could go on but I think I’ve proven my point.“he’s unique that he cares to be normal and comes across that way as well”
CS, did you really write that about Reuven Wolf?! Have you got a different Journal of Modern Psychology than the rest of the world?
Is that it? No one’s going to explain to me how the fictitious sundial works?
Chosid to me: “1. I’m not a Litvak so it has nothing to do with me.
Are you Lubavitche? Doesn’t look like it, and fro some reason that has to do with you, to call them koifrim.”I don’t recall calling them kofrim. That was someone else. And anyway, if Litvaks kept on trying to convert me to questionable beliefs I would consider them on the same low level as lubavichers. But they don’t, and lubavichers do!
“just because of that hava mina, you are going to call Lubavitche koifrim?? (Apikursim)?”
As I wrote, I don’t recall calling them kofrim or apikorsim. I may be wrong so please show me where I wrote that. On the other hand, I will admit publicly that I believe that some of what many lubavichers preach/claim is very close to apikorsus.
Chossid: “Why don’t you have a hava mina that the davaning at Rav Shtieman zatzal keiver is avodah zarah???”
1. I’m not a Litvak so it has nothing to do with me.
2. I never had a hava amina that davening at a keiver so that the person should be a meilitz yosher, or so that the zechus of the niftar should help, is apikorsus. There are other things in lubavich, as I have pointed out a number of times, that still leave me with a hava amina.
Chossid: “So now that we came to a maskona that chabad are not koifrim”
Whose haskoma? I see it only as a hava amina.
CS in reply to I forget whom: ““There was never a Shvil for the Frierdiker Rebbe.”
Agreed. I think it’s a shtus”Oh, I get it. THAT’S a shtus, but all the other garbage isn’t.
What about the sundial?
CS: “…of how a Nossi hador is different”
There is no such thing as a Nossi hador, and I’m going to keep on pointing it out whenever you use it. Your rebbe made it up and anointed himself with it.
Similarly, as I suspected, the term Beis Mashiach exists only in the relation to the statements of the late lubavicher rebbe. I did a full search. In other words, he made up the term and lo and behold it has a gematria of 770! Wow! If that’s not a proof that he’s mashiach (or at least thinks he is) nothing is. It’s even better than Ufaratzta having the gematria of 770… if you don’t count the vov.
Finally, any useful reply to the impossibility of the sundial story being true? (Another thing I’m going to nag about.)
CS: “But I thought that one was my, or should I say my husbands original. No I certainly am not married to him.”
Not married to your husband?!
(I know. I know.)
Toi: “I’ve never, ever heard a lubavitcher willing to state unequivocally that the rebbe is not moshiach, and I’m glad we’ve actually found a couple. There are still unanswered questions”
Did they actually say that or did they merely argue with the looneys who say he is still alive?
CS to YR: ““This means that the proclamation of “Yechi HaMelech” is the essence of all of Judaism and all of Torah and mitzvos! ”
Umm right. Except he said no such thing. I actually listened to the whole recording again today just to make sure. He didn’t even say the phrase yechi hamelech once. So…. How did you pull that one out? Now I’m seriously doubting your credibility.”I didn’t listen to his speech but I read the above in the article about his speech in Beis Mashiach.
CS: “But the Rebbe always based himself on solid ground.”
(I just HAVE to say this line. It’s too good to resist. My apologies in advance):
That’s exactly what Korach said about his views.CS: “you think the Rebbe saying 770 is the gematria of beis moshiach sounds so normal?”
You weren’t addressing me, but I’ll reply anyway. No. It’s definitely not normal. Unless you’re very childish and have an agenda to push which is to convince others that you are the Mashiach.
Btw is the term “beis mashiach” found anywhere other than from the talks of the most recent lubavicher rebbe? I haven’t searched, but I’m guessing that it was invented just to match the gematria. Disclaimer: I may be wrong, and if I am I will retract.
CS (who doesn’t trust anything I learned in third grade): “It seems every community trusts their shochtim more, not just lubavitch.”
Yes, a lot of people are like that. But with lubavicher shechitah the rule is that our shochtim are yirei shamayim because they learn chassidus, so the fact that some of them go to places that no frum Yid should go to etc (I don’t want to elaborate in detail, but I KNOW facts) is irrelevant. The other shochtim don’t learn chassidus so they have less yiras shamayim.
CS (who has recently revealed her level of “belief” by recommending that we all watch a video by the fourth Stooge): “Rso the reason I didn’t respond further is because i didn’t see anything that warrants a response. Ie if you trust your third grade science experiment knowledge and the grand expertise of your third grade teacher, especially when sun dials are not even in use nowadays [etc etc etc]”
YOU DON’T GET IT! There are things I learnt in third grade that don’t change. Sundials don’t change. Look it up on wikipedia or any other site you want, or get a book from the public library. The story is fiction because the sun doesn’t work that way, and neither do sundials. Bring me one scientific explanation – not from Reuven Wolf! – and I will retract it. But I have a background in science and you can trust me on this one: IT ISN’T POSSIBLE.
If you continue to ignore this I will keep on pointing out that you fit into the mold that we have said about lubavich: believe what you want to believe and ignore any facts that are unpleasant.
I just couldn’t resist quoting one more line of yours in the post that you addressed to me: “you’re being the illogical one here”
Oh, is that why the sundial worked? Now I get it.
username: “While Meshichistim aren’t making a mistake. They’re in denial, and using crooked logic to justify denial. But would that be Kefira?”
On its own maybe not, but when they then say (and I have personally heard this more than once from meshichisten), “The gemoro says that Mashiach can be from a dead man [Btw this is a distortion of the gemara – see Rashi there], so I can say it’s the rebbe,” that is apikorsus! It’s like saying, “The gemara says you can’t cook on Shabbos so I say you can’t cook on Wednesdays.” Or, “The Torah says לא תבערו אש, so we can’t have hot food on Shabbos” (recognize the last view?).“They oppose Meshichistim. They condemn meshichistim. And yes, even in private. In fact, it wouldn’t surprise me if they rant against Meshichistim more in private than in public.”
They do, and I’ve heard it. But 99% of the time it’s not because they don’t believe the lubavicher rebbe is Mashiach. It’s because it repels people and makes it difficult for the chabad institutions to attract new faces.“I have quite a few friends who learned in Detroit. If I’d even get close to mentioning something about Yechi, I’d get a tongue lashing.”
Detroit is the epitome of the “antis” and they are hated by most of the mainstream lubavicher yeshivos, so don’t bring them as a proof to the standard lubavich view.Chossid: “I really think that there is something behind all these comments and complaints that you guys say against chabad, which might be something you’re upset about, or you don’t want it change your mindset, or you’re scared someone might mock you if you hold like this”
From the “What to Say to a Snag” handbook, response no. 143: Tell them that they are just scared to admit the truth..
I believe I’m speaking for more than just myself here. We are not “upset” about anything, and we certainly don’t want to change our mindset because we believe that lubavichers’ beliefs range from mild lunacy and denial of the facts to out and out apikorsus. You are one of the mild ones, but you still talk garbage when it comes to trying to “correct” our errant ways. The part I quoted above is just one proof.
“Rav Shtieman told them they shouldn’t open a separate one, rather they should send their kids to the chabad School. (I heard this from the shliachs son in law).”
The story may be true, I have no idea, but you don’t even realize how ridiculous it is for you to quote a pro-lubavich story like that citing a lubavicher as its source!“When someone does moifsim and has roach hakodesh”
I believe that Shabsei Zvi sr”y did all that too. It proves nothing. (And just to upset you, I am only using SZ as a rebuttal. Any resemblance to anyone alive or dead is merely coincidental.)“Now regarding the claims that the friediker Rebbe wrote negative about misnagdim. To my knowledge he only went against the haskalah movement ”
Read the book and you’ll see otherwise. Unless you try to claim that all the misnagdim of Shklov and elsewhere he discusses were closet maskilim…“By you guys, there is a book that came out from professor Berger, saying our shchita is treif”
He may have written that, I don’t know, but don’t take the statements of one person as a proof to what all of us “snags” believe. For the same token I can claim that you are an Elokist.“(Sundial we still have to figure out and discuss)”
I consider the sundial story of utmost importance, not something to be merely put aside for a while, as it shows how the Rayatz wrote fiction.username: ““The phrase “the Rebbe runs the world” is a simple translation of “Tzaddik Gozer VeHakadosh Baruch Hu Mekayem. No more and no less. At least that’s how we take it to mean.”
That’s clearly not what it means. One proof being that your rebbe “demanded” Mashiach and he didn’t come. At least, the rest of the frum world thinks that he didn’t come.
OK, I gave in. I didn’t watch the video but i read most of the article about Reuven Wolf in Beis Moshiach.
What I really can’t believe is that CS, who puts on an almost normal front, tells us we should get inspired by this madman. If he isn’t an apikores it’s only because none of the Rishonim or Achronim every thought that apikorsus would get down to this low state.
And what does that make CS (who still hasn’t commented on my proof from the sundial story that the Rayatz wrote fiction)?
username, for all your efforts and honest and mentchliche attempts at explaining lubavich, you haven’t scratched the surface.
Yes, it’s possible the Elokistim were put in cherem (I haven’t heard that until now but it may be true) but what about all those you denigrate who claim that your rebbe is still alive? Why is it not akin to apikorsus to claim something that is against FACT and then to base a belief system upon it? Where are all the charomim against them?
As to Merkoz being anti-meshichist, that is the offical policy in order not to turn potential mekuravim off. But don’t try to tell me that most of the shlichim are not meshichisten. I have heard less than a handful of shlichim – as I’ve written in the past, I’ve been in chabad houses on five continents and had these discussions in most of them – deny that the rebbe is mashiach when pressed. The others are scared of saying what they believe and try to avoid the topic… until they get drunk and then nichnas yayin yatza sod.
username, that is a nice defense of lubavich shechitah which would be even nicer if it was true. The fact is that in all the communities that I have visited where lubavich has a significant presence, lubavichers will only eat from lubavicher shechita even though in some cases the lubvicher shochet is clearly less of an obvious yirei Shamayim than the other non-lubavicher shochtim.
Obviously you can’t tell yiras Shamayim just by looking at someone but I’m talking about cities where the lubavicher shochet does things that “in Nevil” he would have lost his job for while the non-lubavicher shochet does not. Let’s leave it at that without going into the nitty-gritty, but I can supply that too if necessary.
CS, Chossid and SH (and maybe TT too), are you going to reply/comment on my claim/proof that the sundial story is fiction, or are you just going to ignore it because when a fact doesn’t fit in with what you want to believe the best thing to do is to ignore the fact?
CS: “I would highly recommend it for toi, Rso”
Wow! You really don’t get it, do you? There is no way that I am going to spend even a second listening to someone I consider a looney (you wrote he’s a meshichist) regardless of how much he knows, where he comes from, and what he wears on his head. Maybe not every meshichist is an apikorus, but the belief is very close.
And if you’re going to ask, “What are you scared of?” the answer is in Avodah Zarah 27b “שאני מינות דמשכא”. Listening to this type of stuff is dangerous because it can mess one up.
username: “THE HEICHA KEDUSHA BY MINCHA.”
He’s right. It used to be the minhag in Litvishe yeshivos but I think it was stopped some time ago.
username: “The thing is, we don’t look down at others. We’ll drink your wine, trust your Kashrus, learn your Seforim, and daven in your shuls. We don’t trash talk the Gedolim.”
Kashrus?! Lubavicher shechitah even where there is another perfectly mehudar chareidishe/chassidishe shechitah because only people who learn chabad chassidus can be yirei Shamayim.
And I have heard many lubavichers of all levels of frumkeit and chassisim trash talk other gedolei Yisrael, especially the Litvishe gedolim.
username: “But 95% of the people complaining about us aren’t Chassidishers”
I don’t think that’s true at all. I am a “chassidisher” and the topic of lubavich and their faults comes up between my friends and i as often as some lubavicher nitwit tries to missionize us in our shul.
username: “WHERE IS THE SOURCE FOR THAT? DID THE BHT WRITE IT HIMSELF – IN WHICH CASE PLEASE FIND ME A LINK – OR DOES IT COME FROM THE FICTIONALIZED ACCOUNT OF THE RAYATZ?
See Beis Rebbi (footnote Beis).”
Interesting. Did you realize that it also answers my second problem which was that how could there have been a decree in Shomayim that the BHT was wrong in spreading chassidus. The story there does not say “decree”, it says “kitrug” which can also mean something like a Heavenly ein horo from “the other side”. That resolves that issue.
Btw despite all that, I still don’t necessarily believe that it is true. The BHT was kodesh kodoshim, but not everything said about him was true. Even the footnote itself implies that it may not be true.
username: “Huh?! You go to a Rov and say “please daven for me”. That’s all we’re doing. ”
But, as quoted earlier by someone else, the lubavich rebbe wrote that a rebbe (only of his caliber, of course) can be davened to R”L.
Chossid: “So why not just try it out instead of being so against it, it won’t hurt, and btw anyone that really tried it never really regrets it.
It really enhances your avodah to serve Hashem better. Personally tested.”Are you talking about Ice or cocaine?
Saying “it won’t hurt” flies in the face of all those people I personally know who use the fact that they learn chabad chassidus as an excuse for davening late, talking incessantly during davening, not learning Gemoro. If they didn’t have that excuse they would be a lot better in many ways. And don’t counter with the standard argument of “imagine how bad they would be if they didn’t learn chassidus” because I knew a number of them before they began learning chassidus and they were standard regular Yidden who davened with a minyan, were basically quiet in shul etc.
And the fact that no one regrets it doesn’t make it good. No one regrets suicide either.
Just to back up burntface’s summary of the way lubavichers think what they want and ignore whatever doesn’t suit them, my post of the clearly ludicrous sundial story elicited one response from Chossid asking some naive questions about sundials and NOTHING ELSE.
No comment from CS or sechelhayashar and no rant from Tomim Tihyeh. Does that mean that you are all just ignoring it, or are you perhaps waiting for a reply to an emailed question you have sent to the US Naval Observatory?