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username, If I know I don’t eat lesheim Shamayim and I am a big megusham when it comes to food, would I be justified not to eat in the sukkah because I feel guilty eating there?
username, look at Shulchan Aruch Harav and tell me there is no mitzvah to sleep in the sukkah IF YOU INTEND TO SLEEP.
username: “If we have no Achrayus on them, and them keeping the 7 mitzvos is bad, then even if we could do the second half, why should we force them to keep anything?”
I keep saying this: there is no concept of arvus with a goy. And, as I pointed out, the Rambam, in whose lashon we are medayek, said “to force”, not “to convince” or “to encourage”. Hashem wants us to force them to keep mitzvos. That’s not shayach nowadays.
username, thanks for those mekoros about pictures of tzaddikim. I find it very interesting and wonder why it does not border on לא תעשה לך פסל וכל תמונה.
As to this question of yours: “What, that feeling guilty is called enough Tzaar to avoid sleeping in a Sukkah?”
Feeling guilty that you can fall asleep, which is a mitzvah, can be called tzaar and therefore patter you from sleeping? Doesn’t make sense.
CS: “In chassidish non lubavitch society, dressing tznius is not necessarily an indication of sensitivity to kedusha and yiras shomayim, but an indication of communal pressure.”
And I believe that in all communities keeping Shabbos, keeping kashrus, putting on tefillin, giving tzedoko, men wearing a yarmulke etc etc “is not necessarily an indication of” yiras Shamayim “but an indication of communal pressure”. That’s the way Hashem made the world and it is factored into the mitzvos. Why should tznius be any different?
Btw you write that you don’t find the tznius level of lubavicher chasunos any worse than any other. I have to differ. A few weeks ago I was at a lubavicher chasuna not in my home town, and the level of mixing of “chassidishe” lubavicher bochurim and avreichim with “chassidishe” lubavicher girls and women was something one does not see any simchah of any other chareidi (I’m not counting MO) group, chassidish or non-chassidish.
Perhaps you don’t find it objectionable when at least one of the sides is married. I do.
Chossid: “Your only problem is that you don’t like that the Rebbe associated the friediker Rebbe as a nossi hador (and the same goes on himself).”
No. My objection is, as I have written too many times already, that there the concept of Nossi Hador is not applicable to anyone alive or who was alive for the last thousands (I wrote hundreds in the past, but I think it’s in the thousands) of years. Had you said you believed that your rebbe or the Rayatz were the greatest tzaddikim of their generations I would not have agreed but I wouldn’t have argued the point. It’s the making up of a term and applying it (at least by implication) to oneself that I object to because I have heard lubavichers argue that clearly their rebbe is the Nossi Hador as no one else has even laid claim to the title.
Furthermore, the mekoros that you quoted above that there is ONE tzaddik with a nitzotz are from a very few seforim, with the Zohar saying in at least one place (as someone pointed out in Tikunnim, I believe) that it is 600,000 neshamos in each dor.““Did you know that there are Rebbes alive today shlita who spend hours EVERY DAY dealing with chassidim and others?”
Very possible, but do you have any names?”
Yes, I do have names, and ask chassidim of many other rebbes and they may be willing to tell you names. Unlike you and others, however, I don’t believe in citing names in a public forum when I am sure the people whose names I would cite would not want to be cited! So just because I don’t cite names it doesn’t mean I don’t have the names.“I don’t see a difference between telling a non frum person to do a mitzvah, and telling a goiy to do a mitzvah”
To me the difference is obvious. There is a din or arvus when it comes to Yidden, but no din of arvus when it comes to goyim.
As to the Rambam you keep quoting, I have already replied that it doesn’t apply nowadays as we can’t do what the Rambam finishes off his halocho with, i.e. punishing those who don’t in beis din. Don’t you think it noteworthy that the Rambam writes specifically לכוף which means “force” them to keep mitzvos? Is that what the lubavicher rebbe said to do?“Good question, but the same I can’t understand how he had Ruach hakodesh and did miracles, the same to is with this. Maybe he just was not an ordinary person.”
That doesn’t answer the question. If the Rambam paskened it as a halocho it means it applies to every Yid during his lifetime. This is something your rebbe believed as he always spoke about the primacy of halocho (Remember when he had people pasken at a farbrengen that the Israeli government was forbidden to give back land, and he expected that the fact that a halocho had been paskened would affect the outcome?) The lubavicher rebbe was certainly a Yid, so were he to make a shevua that he would not sleep for three consecutive days it would be a shevuas shov and he would be chayav malkus. One must therefore conclude that he slept at least a short time every three days, and on Sukkos he would have been chayav to sleep in a sukkah.“And yes the Rebbe had a bed in is room, but that was only in the last five years after the rebbitzim past away.”
??? How does that show anything at all. 1. Before she passed away he went home every night so he didn’t need a bed in his office. 2. The person who told me the story was talking about the early 80s before the rebbetzin passed away. I could provide details but I don’t want to “out” anyone.“NAMES PLEASE”
No. I won’t supply names of people who would not want to be mentioned. I understand that you may therefore decide not to believe me, but I know that I am telling the truth.““Can I also guess that there are a lot of people who think otherwise who aren’t quoted?”
Very possible, if you can please name me some.
For some reason you don’t have any………….”
Sorry, but once again your conclusion is wrong. As above.“There’s a general klal that you don’t need as strong of a Svara to legitimize an existing Minhag than to innovate a new one.”
I’m not looking for a legitimization of a minhag. A I wrote at least twice, there are many minhogim that seem to go against halocho. My ENTIRE point was that the lomdus doesn’t make sense, as rockstar pointed out earlier as well.
SHY: ” it’s not hard to imagine that on Sukkos he stayed up at night, as he often did during the week, and slept intermittently at other times”
That doesn’t exempt him from sleeping in a sukkah as even a shinas arai, as opposed to achilas arai, is mechuyav. And we all know how makpid lubavich is on eating or drinking anything in a sukkah, so according to basic halacha he should have gone to even great length to have naps in the sukkah.
Again, I’m not saying that the minhag of not sleeping in the sukkah is wrong, even though I don’t know where the minhag came from. I’m saying that the “lomdishe” excuse makes no sense at all.
Chossid on the term “Nossi Hador”: “So let’s just clarify, it’s not made up by the Rebbe, (because it’s mentioned in many heilikeh sforim,) just the Rebbe was the one that brought it up in the past generations”
Which heilige seforim mention “Nossi Hador” in connection with someone who lived over the last hundreds, possibly thousand, years? I have searched and found nothing.“you can just look at how the Rebbe acted, for example…”
Did you know that there are Rebbes alive today shlita who spend hours EVERY DAY dealing with chassidim and others? Once again you are showing that your understanding and views are based solely on what you heard in lubavich. I can understand that that’s the case, and I don’t have a huge problem with it. The problem that I (and others on this forum) have with views like yours is that you really think that it will convince US that your rebbe was greater “than average”.“If you can answer those questions please, both of them”
OK, but only because you insist: Yes, I think the mivtza of 7 mitvos Bnei Noach is a meshigass, and I have NEVER met any non-lubavicher who thinks otherwise. I’m happy to leave that topic alone because I’m not interested in davka offending.“The same it [not sleeping the entire sukkos] doesn’t make sense to you, it doesn’t make sense to me, but that’s what happened”
The gemoro says it’s not possible, and the Rambam paskens that way. This is not an aggadata as it is nogeia to giving someone malkus in a beis din. There can’t be exceptions. So, in summary, I don’t believe what the mazkirim say. Anyhow, from all the stories the mazkirim were not with him 24/7. Furthermore, he had a bed (possibly a folding bed) in his room. I heard it from a lubavicher (I think he may even be a meshichist – not sure) who saw it.“you have to base you shita on some what of a talmid chochom, godel or tzadik…. first you should learn more of what a Rebbe is, and what the Rebbe was, what he was boki in and his day to day life. Second I think you are arguing not just with Lubavitch, but rather must of the chassidishe world, (which you said that you are chassidish.) ”
I have most definitely discussed the matter with numerous chassidishe talmidei chachomim who, were they Litvish, would be considered gedolim, and I have arrived at my opinions based on those discussions.“you should check up the book חד בדרא ”
You caught me on a sefer that I don’t recall having seen, so I looked it up. Written by a lubavicher and published by lubavich. Let me make a guess based on the title, it quotes all types of people who say that the lubavicher rebbe was chad bedoro. Did I get it right? Can I also guess that there are a lot of people who think otherwise who aren’t quoted?CS: “He said that the Rambams conditions are unapplicable to the Rebbe today as the Rambams terms were only written to determine someone who is alive. Not if moshiach comes from the dead.”
Are you saying what I think you’re saying? That is, that when your rebbe was alive the Rambam paskened that he was mashiach, but now that you’re rebbe is (allegedly) dead, he is mashiach regardless and the Rambam’s psak doesn’t apply?
rockstar (I hope you don’t mind me calling you that. The “yeshivish” part makes it less catchy!): “some people – including a rebbe in Ohelei Torah – put a Rebbe picture in front of them while davening for hiskashrus (this has been confirmed to me by a reliable source)”
What about putting a picture of the rebbe in the pillow under the baby at a bris? No one sees the picture, so it can’t have been put there to bring a hisorerus by looking at it. It must be imbued with some “power”. Why is that not a problem associated with avodah zarah?
I have also hear – I don’t know if it’s true or not – that lubavichers will never throw out a picture of their rebbe, and if they have to dispose of it they put it in genizah. Is this true?
NonPolitical: “That (I believe) is RSo’s point”
Precisely, as I posted before seeing your post.
username, I don’t know if you recall that when I first mentioned the inyan of not sleeping in the sukkah I myself wrote that many chassidic groups have customs that don’t seem to fit into halacha. My point was not about not sleeping in the sukkah, it was about the weird lomdus your rebbe used to explain it, a point that was recently reiterated by rockstar.
It must be hard for you to write mentshliche replies to me, an acknowledged non-believer in much of what lubavich believes, but you certainly try, and I appreciate and applaud you for it!
Yasher koach username for stating unequivocally that there is no source for using the Igros and that you think it is improper.
You are certainly in the minority in lubavich.
Chossid on my “criteria”: “Again making up criterias.”
100%. It is what I, and I alone, expect from a gadol beYisroel. Who makes up your criteria? Seriously.“And btw do you have clue what’s going on in ponivich? Everyone still calls them godel beyisrael.”
Everyone. You forget that I’m not a Litvak.Rso: “5. He doesn’t think about promoting himself.”
Cool to see that you have ruach hakodesh, and know what’s going on in his mind. (And why don’t you say the same thing about shach?)”
No ruach hakodesh. But every frum Yid decides for themselves who is a gadol beYisrael. Some might use criteria given by others, but in the end each Yid decides which criteria to use. Just as you chose to believe whatever your rebbe says. It’s YOU choosing to do that. No one is forcing you.
So even though I don’t KNOW what’s going on in “his mind” I have to judge by what I see. And that’s the way I see it.
And in reply to saying the same thing about Rav Shach. You don’t know what I think of him because I haven’t discussed him, so please don’t assume.“Again these are all made up criterias by a little pipsqueak”
Yep. This pipsqueak is making criteria (there is no such word as criterias, as criteria is already the plural) to determine what this pipsqueak should believe. As I wrote above you can decide on your own criteria for your far more brilliant mind.Chossid: “but even then it is told that the Rebbe didn’t sleep a whole sukkis because of the chshash”
I’m glad you wrote “it is told” because this is one of the stories that someone made up and became viral. What about the gemoro that someone who makes a shevuo that he won’t sleep for 3 consecutive days is lokeh miyad and can sleep, as it is a shevuas shov since it is impossible? Or will you say that your rebbe is different?
I remember the belief in lubavich even after gimmel Tammuz was that the rebbe never slept, and at best he dozed in a chair for a short period. Then the book written by someone who helped at the rebbe’s home came out in which he said clearly that he would put multiple negel vasser bowls near the rebbe’s bed because the rebbe would have to get up a few times in the middle of the night (due to his age).
Chossid: “And nossi hador is made up by the Rebbe?”
Yes, and I have proven it. Remember, my statement was that there has been no such thing for (at least) hundreds of years. Moshe Rabbeinu was the Nossi Hador. There were nesi’im of Shevatim. There were the nesi’im in Eretz Yisroel. But the concept Nossi hador as applied to someone in the last hundreds of years originated with the last lubavicher rebbe.
(I was going to answer the question you asked immediately prior to the one I quoted above, but I thought that there’s no point stam offending you. וד”ל)
Neville, nice to hear from you again.
And thanks for explaining my gripe with tznius in lubavich perfectly.
rockstar: “but tznius is an unfair one, especially in this dor”
I disagree. We’re not talking about individual acts and individual nisyonos. We’re talking about the apparent shita of a movement, and there’s no excuse for having a bad shita.
SHY: it’s definitely not a pervasive issue among the kinds of people I associate with”
Do you live in Crown Heights? At any rate, good for you hanging around with the right crowd. But, as others have confirmed, it is a HUGE problem in lubavich.
Would you agree that the average chassidshe bochur in lubavich feels that once he is married it is ok to talk to women and girls? I have seen “chassidishe”chassanim at lubavich chasunos being introduced by their kallos to all her friends, and the chassanim find this normal (enjoyable?). This doesn’t happen in any other chareidi group.
SHY: “Our Minhag of not sleeping in the Sukkah dates back to the Alter Rebbe, and the Mitteler Rebbe instructed Chassidim not to sleep in the Sukkah. (Sefer HaSichos 5699)”
I know I’m going to get into BIG trouble for this one, but note that Sefer HaSichos 5699 was said by the Rayatz who, as I have said before, was very “creative” in telling us history.
He is also the one who told us the story about Moshe Rabbeinu sending malachim to get esrogim from Calabria, and once again he cited the Baal Hatanya as the source.
Has anyone ever heard of the expression that ends “ירחיק עדיו”? (I told you I’d get into trouble for this.
roskstar, thanks for dealing so well with the navi issue. I just didn’t have the koiech for a new sub-topic and I was happy to see you doing it for me, and probably better than I could have done myself.
CS: “Moshiach can clearly come from the dead, hidden, or the living (as brought earlier on this thread)”
I really like the word clearly in that sentence.
Those of us old enough to remember what was going on pre gimmel Tammuz clearly remember lubavichers “proving” that the rebbe is mashiach from the fact that there is no one else ALIVE who fits the criteria.
Before gimmel Tammuz if you would have suggested to a lubavicher that maybe someone who died will be mashiach he would have explained to you that that is impossible, and likely apikorsus. This is not conjecture. I remember it well, and there are probably other posters who remember it too.
My, my. Look what someone’s death on gimmel Tammuz has now made “clear”.
CS: “Otherwise no I don’t see any casual untzniusdik mixing of genders between lubavitcher chassidim (I don’t mean lubavitch by birth).”
Then you haven’t been shopping on Kingston Avenue lately and you certainly haven’t walked into the lobby during a lubavicher chasunah for a looooong time.
CS: Na now you’re switching the topic. First you attack the description of the rebbetzin on her wedding day, I reply to that and now you say that you’re referring to basic halacha.”
No. I attacked both, and I stand by those attacks.
If you’re talking about the example you gave of your lubavitch relatives mocking your tznius standards I had two questions for you which you never responded to.
1) why did they become lubavitch?
2) are they chassidish (as in lubavitch chassidish)?”””They are relatives through marriage who were born in lubavich and who are considered “lubavich chassidish”in their lubavich communities.
SHY, Chossid and username, do you realize what a disservice you are doing to CS?
Your posts are thought out and follow along a logical path, at least for those who believe in the concepts that you believe in and I don’t. So now when CS comes up with zingers she looks really foolish, and I barely have the patience to read all her posts.
Here’s one of her latest: “an acquaintance in YU confirmed to me there is no contemporary leader of the Jewish people and its plainly evident to the non biased”
That is really convincing! Now, I have to find a bigger left-winger – say a transgender Jews for J – who agrees with me or I lose the argument.
SHY: “To quote the Likkutei Halochos of Rav Nosson of Breslov:
וְאִתְפַּשְּׁטוּתָא דְּמֹשֶׁה בְּכָל דָּרָא וְדָרָא, כִּי מֹשֶׁה רַבֵּנוּ מִתְלַבֵּשׁ בְּכָל דּוֹר וָדוֹר בַּצַּדִּיק הָאֲמִתִּי שֶׁבַּדּוֹר.
He clearly develops this concept into a single person in a generation”Not necessarily. Tzaddik haámiti does not necessarily imply one individual in a generation.
At any rate thanks for the sources.
rockstar: “RSo, not sure why you’re so hung on tznius (debatable) and shluchim’s motivations (I’ll bet it’s sincere), when there are far more pressing issues in Chabad, such as A shliach’s wife on this very forum quoted a koifer”
Because when it comes to kefira, you do have a group – only a minority but certainly a group – of lubavichers, such as SHY who is against that view. But the lack of tznius is pervasive in all the different streams.
username, thanks for the Reb Tzadok. But note that he too talks mainly about it in the plural (and, of course, he doesn’t use the expression nossi hador).
So when lubavichers says that their rebbe is nossi hador it is ignoring the fact that there may be others of just a high a standard. And don’t forget that Tanya, which is your prime source for all of chassidus, only mentions it in the plural.
username: “So pretty much no one is Lesheim Shamayim.”
And what is your problem with that? Lubavichers always quote Tanya pointing out that we are virtually all reshaím (vera lahem) because in Tanya it says that even one aveirah makes you a rasha. To say that virtually no one is lesheim Shamayim is along the same lines, and even less “distasteful”, isn’t it?
CS: secondly I would hope any women are not banned from learning halacha.”
Learning Rambam is NOT learning halacha.
Chossid: ” just i never heard in my life people for example rso saying… Friediker Rebbe that all he wrote is fiction……. and that we are aovid avodah zarah, because we write a tzetul to the Rebbe”
Just for the record, I didn’t say ALL he wrote was fiction, and I didn’t get involved in the writing a “tzetl to the rebbe” conversation.
Chossid: “Regarding the problems and storys you say about us, I can say the same about you guys (just for some reason I don’t see a reason to speak about it), I hang around alot of litvishe/chassidish bochurim that do plenty of terrible stuff, which I won’t even try to put it in words, (and they come from a officially good yeshiva), so please stop bringing up problems, because like I said before no one is perfect. Each kreis has different problems that are worse then the other.”
Hey! Why do you hang around with them? 🙁
Seriously, though, as I have said before, of course there are bad apples in every group. The difference here is that those litvish/chassidish bochurim you “hang around with” and are doing the wrong thing don’t do so in the name of their yeshivah.chassidus. The lack of tznius in action and word in lubavich is accepted at virtually the highest levels.
Chossid: “Can you explain what is a godel? Who fits the criteria? And why you don’t see the Rebbe as a godel? And same with a tzadik. Please”
No, I can’t tell you what a godol is, but I can tell you just a few of the criteria that he must possess:
1. He doesn’t try to explain away halochos that he doesn’t keep as irrelevant or inapplicable (e.g. sleeping in a sukkah, not eating Seudah Shlishis, davening after zman tefillah).
2. He doesn’t want to have his name, his picture and his movement plastered everywhere.
3, He doesn’t come up with childish “proofs” that his movement is the correct one (e.g. Beis Mashiach is begematria 770).
4. He tries to ensure there will be a hemshech so that it will not become a vacuum after his passing with everyone doing whatever they want in his name.
And above all (in my silly opinion) 5. He doesn’t think about promoting himself.Look, dear chossid, we disagree on a very basic point min hakotzeh el hakotzeh. You think that your rebbe was the ultimate tzaddik hador, and I don’t think he was a tzaddik. You’re not going to convince me, and i”m not trying to convince you. All I am trying to do is to show you that I and many others think that you are wrong and that that is why you should stop preaching as we don’t believe in the very basis of your view.
I’m happy to continue the argument, but do YOU see a point in continuing to ask my why, when and how I don’t hold of your rebbe?
SHY: “s the Zohar says, there is an “Ispashtusa D’Moshe” in each and every generation”
If you’ll look at the source – and I have, I just can’t remember exactly where it is in the Zohar – it does not mean it is mispashet in one person, rather in the dor as a whole, or at least in 600,000 Yidden.
Is there anyone out there who has the source in Zohar?
CS: “Rambam it would seem is talking about Rebbe as in a teacher and guide of Torah, whose halachic and hashkafic stances may differ
From others but he is known as A Talmid Chochom and has a solid Torah basis for his words…”You’re now learning pshat in a Rambam?! Even in Brisk the women don’t do that.
SHY: “רש”י במדבר כא, כא:
שמשה הוא ישראל וישראל הם משה, לומר לך שנשיא הדור הוא ככל הדור, כי הנשיא הוא הכל”Did you read what I orignally wrote? I specifically said that the term has not been applied to anyone in many hundreds of years. Quoting Rashi referring to Moshe Rabbeinu is totally irrelevant.
My apologies. I thanked SHY for having already said what I had later posted when in fact it was Syag. How could I have mixed the two up?
SHY: “But don’t claim “The Rebbe made it up” because it was used before the Rebbe was born.
See Tanya Perek Bais:
וכן בכל דור ודור יש ראשי אלפי ישראל, שנשמותיהם הם בחינת ראש ומוח לגבי נשמות ההמון ועמי הארץ, וכן נפשות לגבי נפשות, כי כל נפש כלולה מנפש רוח ונשמה.
(Note it doesn’t use the words Nosi HaDor, just the concept)”Nope. The concept that your rebbe made up is clearly in the singular and he only every used it about his father-in-law, and as understood by lubavichers by implication about himself. One Nossi hador and that’s it.
Not only does the Tanya not use that loshon, but he clearly says it in the plural: roshei, nishmoseihem, heim.
Btw, I have heard this Tanya quoted, and explained by a lubavicher that the Baal Hatanya was really referring to himself, in the singular, but he wrote it in plural out of anivus! I kid you not.
Syag: “He did provide a serious rebuttal. Mire than once. Nameky that the title doesnt exist. He made it up !
Why do you pretend everything you dont like didn’t happen?”Thanks. I posted a similar response before I saw what you had written.
CS: “But to ask if we think that way and then get all riled up and annoyed any time its mentioned as a response to a query, without providing a serious rebuttal of why WE shouldn’t, is silly”
I grant you that I may be silly in many ways, but you are missing the point. I’m not arguing with you whether your rebbe does or does not fit the title of Nossi hador. I am telling you that there is no such title!
CS: “btw rso I didn’t respond to your example of the Satmar Rebbe as Nossi hador because it didn’t meet the three requirements listed”
You’re free to make up as many requirements as you want for the position of Nossi hador because the position doesn’t exist.
Just one question: do you make up the requirements first, and then attribute them to your rebbe, or do you find attributes you think your rebbe has and then claim they are requirements?
The same question I’ve often wondered about lubavichers associating the Rambam’s criteria for Mashiach to the lubavicher rebbe. It’s either misconstrue the Rambam or decide that the rebbe has those criteria.
CS: “The chassidisher derher didn’t see it as a “thing” obviously or they wouldn’t have printed it.”
That is precisely part of the problem.
No, CS, you’re wrong, and I’ve said it before. A lack of tznius MEANS a lack of kedushah. You can discuss the levels of tznius of different groups, but dresses above the knee and sleeves above the elbow are against halacha, and therefore can’t be compared to any other levels. We’re not even talking about long sheitels, which have been banned by some many groups here and for good reason. We’re talking about breaches of halocho. And then there is the ease of association between the genders that is so prevalent in lubavich. I know because I have seen it and experienced it.
SHY: “You could have realized all this yourself RSO, instead of me going digging to find the original wording, but you first try look at everything concerning Lubavitch in a bad light”
The fact is that 1. there is a picture of a kallah in her wedding dress (sans veil) plastered all over the place, and 2. the offensive (and it is offensive) translation is published in a Lubavich “chassidishe” magazine. It could have been edited better, but in all likelihood no lubavicher would blink twice at the wording even if it had been the original.
One more thing, the lashon might be taken from pesukim etc, but it is still something that you would never find in any other chassidus when describing a kallah or any woman. I would be very interested to see if you could prove me wrong here.
Finally, please stop telling me that all I’m out to find things wrong with lubavich. Let’s say that that’s true. Does it make wrong things right?
username: “Tell me, do you think that getting a once a year Kavod by the Kinnus is worth it?”
To me it seems that you have a very unsophisticated, even childish, understanding of the human mind and how kavod works. It doesn’t have to be kavod that someone else gives you, although there is certainly some of that in nearly all cases of chabad shlichim, but the kavod that you feel becaue you are doing what to you seems a bekavodige thing. If a shliach feels that he is a big chassid becasue he is on shlichus, then the bizyonos he gets doesn’t faze him. Aderaba, it makes him feel even better with himself.
Nothing wrong with any of that, but it just can’t be called lesheim Shamayim or ahavas Yisrael.
username: ” So unless you want to close this thread (and get yourself banned, while you’re at it)”
Are you threatening?
username: ” You said earlier that you don’t believe that Lubavitch is not a Kefira organization per se. So we’re Bichlal Amisecha, and you have to judge us Lekaf Zechus. So Kal Vachomer, you should be judging the Rebbe Lekaf Zechus. ”
I was dan lechaf zechus for years and years, but matters got worse and worse, and in the end I realized that I think there is a huge problem which your rebbe caused. I can’t be dan lechaf zechus any more. Nonetheless, and I have written this before, I think he has millions of zehuyos for the good things he achieved. It’s just that in the last, say, twenty years of his life things went downhill.
username, I like your attempt to explain the sundial story but it doesn’t work.
First, if the trees could be seen then any fool would know that they were causing the problem. They wouldn’t have needed the Baal Hatanya for that. And if they couldn’t be seen they couldn’t disturb the sundial in any way.
Second, and this is what I meant when I wrote about the hours 2 to 5 pm being impossible, if the trees were disturbing to any extent then they could not have disturbed from 2 shaos zemaniyos after chatzos until 5 shaos zemaniyos after chatzos. There is a site called timeanddate where you can find the height of the sun (in degrees) at any time of any day of any year. For the sake of argument I entered Krakow, a city in southern Poland, as the difference between winter and summer there is not as extreme as it would be further north or in Russia. The sun’s height at 2 shaos zemaniyos after chatzos varies between 52 and 14 degrees. At 5 shaos zemaniyos it varies between 9 and 6 degrees. You physically can’t construct something that would disturb the sundial during davka those hours. Furthermore, as the height of the trees would not vary greatly during the seasons – and there is a HUGE difference in height between 52 and 14 degrees – it wouldn’t have affected the same hours throughout the year.
Your final paragraph suggesting why the Rayatz wrote the story in that way may indeed be correct, but why is it any worse than what I wrote that he was writing fiction? Personally, if I would have been you I would have preferred saying that my rebbe intentionally wrote interesting fiction to captivate and influence his readers than to say that he somehow made a mistake.
Chossid: “Every tayneh you have against the shita of chabad and the Rebbe, and you make according to that a maskona, is worth nothing, until you have a godol or Rebbe that says that maskona, only then we can have a conversation who is right, but until then it’s worthless.”
I understand your point of view, honestly, but you have to understand why I disagree with you. As I don’t consider the lubavicher rebbe a gadol beYisroel, and, as I have written, I see him as someone who had a lot of “talent” but who allowed himself to “stray” from the straight and narrow, I certainly feel that I can argue with what he says. I understand that you see it differently.
I don’t, as you claim, hold that ALL gedolim hold like I do, but I do hold that many of them do, and in that we can include virtually all the litvishe velt.“If it’s just ahavas Yisrael then why don’t the litvish or chassidish do the same?”
Because we/they think that it is a dangerous derech and the first thing the RBS”O wants is for us to protect our own from foreign influences. I believe you would agree that it is worse for a person raised in a frum home to be mechalel Shabbos c”v than it is for someone raised in a non-frum home. Both are not good but the former is a lot worse. Therefore, making sure our kids and talmidim aren’t exposed to danger and have a high level of kedushah is our number one priority. And the proof that your derech is very dangerous is what I have been writing about all the time: lack of tznius, and worse, in lubavich.“there are many of talented Lubavitchers that can run big businesses and be rabbonim, melamdim…. But they decided for some reason that they are going to leave their comfort zone, and go to a hole in middle of the world and build up a community from scratch”
Yes, that’s true. But as I explained in my original post and in my reply to a question about kollel yungeleit, social pressure and the feeling of being an achiever in one’s own circle is always a factor. It’s what keeps many/most people in kollel when they could be running a successful business. It’s what keeps many/most bochurim in yeshivos when they could be out studying in college. And it’s what keeps many lubavichers in chabad houses.
I don’t consider that focusing on the negative, as it’s not negative because that’s the way Hashem made the world. The seforim say – I think it may also be a midrash – that if not for jealousy people wouldn’t marry, raise families or build houses. All of which are what Hashem wants in HIs world.“after a shliach comes down somewhere and buids up a community with programs and Bal habatim, then in middle of nowhere someone comes down and takes all he’s Bal habatim, it only makes sense to be upset”
Of course it does. But if the whole raison d’etre of the first person was ahavas Yisroel it wouldn’t upset him. It’s natural but don’t put a lesheim Shamayim spin on it.“They are not doing the same other shluchim, they are going to against the Rebbe ( most of them) they don’t listen to the system the Rebbe made and the people the Rebbe appointed, therefore they don’t deserve to be shluchim and most of them are mishichistim”
I’m an outsider (had you guessed that?) but to me it seems they are dong the same things the other shlichim are doing, and just as successfully. You claim that the don’t follow the system the way your rebbe wanted, but they claim they do. That’s the problem with your group’s lack of leadership, which I have already mentioned a few times.
And probably more than half of lubavich today are meshichistim. I don’t like it. You don’t like it. But you can’t just write it off as non-lubavich. CS claims to be a shlichah and she is a meshichist. Is she therefore not doing the rebbe’s work?Regarding tznius, which you acknowledge as a problem, you write “Now if people don’t act accordingly to Torah or a certain hashkofa it’s doesn’t affect the kedusha of Torah or a hashkofa”
That’s true when I don’t act properly, and, it seems, when you don’t act properly, because we know that we are wrong. But the VAST majority of lubavichers, both BTs and FFBs, make fun of the basic levels of tznius as practiced by others. I know this for a fact because I and my chaveirim are often the butt of sick jokes to that effect. Every time we go to a family simchah made by the lubavich part of our family, I hear afterwards from my wife and kids how someone has made fun of the way they act. One example: “Come and say mazeltov to my wife/husband. What’s wrong with that? They’re happily married and they’re not going to be interested in you.” This happens, and it ONLY happens at lubavicher simchos.“And for your reason rso that there is [I assume you left the word “no” out by mistake] arvus with goyim, I think you shouldn’t go for that reason to any non Jewish store.”
There is clearly no arvus by goyim, but I don’t see the connection with the rest of your statement. Nonetheless, you are right. One shouldn’t go to any non Jewish store and deal with the owners… unless one has to. In the same vein one shouldn’t go down the street unless one has to. However, you have written that you believe that the mivtza of 7 mitzvos is only intended for someone who already has a connection with goyim, and if that’s true than that’s fair enough. It doesn’t make me or anyone other non-lubavicher I know think that the whole campaign is still a meshigass. (Btw I still understand the gemoro my way.)One final word in this overly long post. I see that you are a rational person who is trying hard and fairly to defend what you believe is the correct path. But you have to realize that way way way over 50% of chareidim think that your path is far off the beaten track, and you’re going to have to accept that. So to you specifically I will apologize for my tone, but not for my content.