RSo

CS: “Rabbi Heller the mohel has helped a bunch of these, and when they asked him what he wanted in return he said they should start modest clothing fashions”

I find this VERY interesting! I don’t know whether Rabbi Heller is a lubavicher or not, but he chose something which is NOT one of the 7 mitzvos. Rather his intention seems to be to have more people dress in a tznius manner so that we Yidden will have it easier when coming in contact with them.

That I can see the point of. (Sorry for the lousy grammar.)

Interesting how no one has commented on the piece from Sefer Chassidim I posted.

I really don’t have time at the moment as I am out of town for Shabbos, but I “had” to post what a friend of mine just showed me. It’s in Sefer Chassidim siman 206. I’ll let other translate it if they are so inclined:

אם תראה שמתנבא אדם על משיח דע כי היו עוסקים במעשה כשפים או במעשה שדים או במעשה שם המפורש ובשביל שהם מטריחים את המלאכים אומרים לו על משיח כדי שיתגלה לעולם על שהטריחו את המלאכים ולבסוף יהיה לבושת ולחרפה לכל העולם על שהטריחו המלאכי’ או השדים באים ולומדים לו חשבונות וסודות לבושתו ולבושת המאמינים בדבריו:

I wrote that I wasn’t going to comment further on the sukkah matter, but as Chossid asked me a direct question, I will reply to it.

“Rso let me ask you a simple question.
If the rabbeim (and chassidim) wore makpid ad kedei chach, to not even drink a little sip of water outside the sukkah even if it raining, and even on shmini atzeres, why wouldn’t they be makpid on sleeping in the sukkah?”

As I wrote a number of times, and as Syag wrote so clearly in a post just before yours, I have no problem with the minhag, and that is why I’d not fussed with what did or did not happen in Dzikov. I have a problem ONLY with the attempt at rationalization that simply does not hold water.

usernme: “IF SOMEONE WILL SLEEP, IT’S A CHIYUV TO DO SO IN THE SUKKAH.
You and rso repeat this position again and again. Can you source that the Petur of Tashvu KeEin Taduru only applies when you can’t eat/drink/sleep?”

No. It applies when under the same circumstances you would leave your home to sleep somewhere else. If it was raining in your dining room to the extent taht you would find somewhere else to eat, than that amount of rain exempts you from eating in a sukkah. That’s teishvu k’ein toduru. Similarly, if it was too hard for you to sleep in your bedroom for whatever reason, and you would look for somewhere else to sleep, you are exempt from sleeping in the sukkah.

But you are not exempt from eating or sleeping in the sukkah if the you find the fact that you CAN eat or sleep in the sukkah disturbing. This is a baseless invention of your rebbe to justify a minhag which was unknown before the Rayatz said it. (I personally knew old lubavicher chassidim who used to sleep in the sukkah in Europe before they heard about this “old” minhag.)

I am sick of replying to this sub-topic because I say the same thing each time, and you don’t address it. So one last time (if I can control myself in the future, and I am pleased to say that I have some measure of self-control as can be attested to by the fact that I didn’t get as involved as I could have in the topic of your rebbe’s rebbetzin): you will NOT find any chareidi rov who is not a lubavicher or a lubavicher sympathizer (e.g. he wears a shtreimel and has his own shul somewhere but is considered a closet lubavicher by lubavichers) who agrees with the sevoro that the fact that you don’t have tzaar can be called mitzta’er and patter you from a sukkah.

If I’m wrong, give me the name of the rov and quote what he says.

Chossid: “If It’s a chiyuv to sleep in the sukkah then they wore furced to go to sleep? ( Which means they would have to leave the ezorah and go to sleep in the sukkah חוץ לעזרה). Why didn’t they?”
Because they wouldn’t have gone home to sleep if there was Simchas Beis Hasho’eiva any other time of the year either. That is the rule of תשבו געין תדורו. For the same reason someone who is traveling is not obligated to sleep in a sukkah.

“From this Gemorah the Rebbe brings a rayeh that sleeping is a פרט which is nichlal in the mitzvah תשבו כעין תדורו not a separate inyen, so the chachomim wore מקיים the mitzvah of תשבו כעין תדורו by eating and drinking in the sukkah , even without sleeping, because that’s the real chiyuv deoreisa of תשבו כעין תדורו”
Did he really say that?! So he just ignores Rav Shulchon Oruch 5639 se’ifim 4 and 8?!
How far are you people allowed to distort things in order to prove that you are right?

Chossid: “When it’s raining outside to you eat and sleep in the sukkah or you go inside? I don’t know, but guessing that you go inside and rely on the retroactive hetter, even though the Rama says we should be machmir.”

“Retroactive heter”?! There is no retroactive heter if it’s raining and the rain ruins your food or disturbs your sleep. It is a halocho paskened openly by ALL poskim. The only “retroactive heter” is not sleeping in a sukkah when the weather and other physical considerations do not disturb, and that is where the Rema says that it appears to him that the reason people don’t sleep in a sukkah is…
That is a “retroactive heter”.

CS: “People are searching for meaning and stronger connection to Hashem both not yet frum and frum alike nowadays. I even see this by the non Jews in levels never before seen in history.”

Could you please elaborate on how you see this by non-Jews in unprecedented levels?

“YKK is a din in Gemara ”

I have asked this earlier but no one addressed it. Where does it mention Yom Kippur Kattan in the Gemoro? I’m not saying it doesn’t, just asking where.

Chossid: “If you believe that tzadikim have Ruach hakodesh, and saw stuff which other people didn’t, how do you explain this rambam?
שְׁנַּיִם שֶׁהֵעִידוּ וְאָמְרוּ בְּמִזְרַח הַבִּירָה הָרַג זֶה אֶת הַנֶּפֶשׁ בְּשָׁעָה פְּלוֹנִית וּבָאוּ שְׁנַיִם וְאָמְרוּ לָהֶן בְּמַעֲרַב הַבִּירָה הַזֹּאת הֱיִיתֶם עִמָּנוּ בָּעֵת הַזֹּאת. אִם יָכוֹל הָעוֹמֵד בְּמַעֲרָב לִרְאוֹת מַה שֶּׁבַּמִּזְרָח אֵינָן זוֹמְמִין. וְאִם אֵינוֹ יָכוֹל לִרְאוֹת הֲרֵי אֵלּוּ זוֹמְמִין וְאֵין אוֹמְרִין שֶׁמָּא מְאוֹר עֵינֵיהֶם שֶׁל רִאשׁוֹנִים רַב וְרוֹאִין מֵרָחוֹק יֶתֶר מִכָּל אָדָם.:
Even if they can “see” or know what’s going on במזרח while they are standing במערב (which according to norm you can’t see it) they still will be considered עדים זוממים, because we go according to norm”

Sorry but that’s irrelevant. The Rambam is talking about physically seeing something. I don’t yet have ruach hakodesh but I don’t think it means physically seeing something.
And as far as the norm goes, the Rambam writes that we don’t say “perhaps” his eyesight is better than anyone else’s. But if he could prove that he can say the Sanhedrin won’t kill him. Here, on the other hand, the Rambam says point blank that we give him malkus immediately for saying that he won’t sleep for 3 days.

I want to point out how far you are brainwashed in your beliefs.
The original point was that the heter for not sleeping in the sukkah because of tzaar that you can sleep is ridiculous. NOT that your rebbe was wrong for not sleeping in the sukkah, as if that is truly an old minhag it’s good enough for me and, I assume, anyone else who follows talmidei Habaal Shem.
When you replied to that you mentioned BY THE WAY that you heard from mazkirim that the rebbe didn’t sleep for the entire 7 days of Sukkos.
I replied that that is impossible and that the Rambam proves as much.
Then you answer that by “showing” how the rebbe was above nature. I argued that it’s irrelevant. You argue back by trying to prove it from a different Rambam, etc.

Do you see what you are doing? The MAZKIRIM said something and you just have to believe it because if you don’t, and you accept that the halachah of the Rambam applies to your rebbe as well – even though NO ONE is claiming that there is anything wrong with it applying to your rebbe – you feel you are doubting your rebbe.

So now the statements of the mazkirim – each of whom is denigrated by either the meshichisten or anti-meshichisten – are also Kodesh Kodoshim!

username: “The real Shaalah is if psychological stress counts as Tzaar. Did you see anyone discussing this question?…”

That’s not the real shailah. The real shailah, which we are disputing, is that someone who CAN fall asleep is pattur because he is embarrassed by that fact.

“the Call of the Shofar episode”

Can someone please fill me in what that episode was and what lubavich had to do with it?

Syag: “There are 3 people I can think of who were very respected and wrote sforim and/or books and gave lectures and were held in high regard. When they suddenly made claims that did not shtim with Hashkafa or proper halacha”

Who are the three?

CS: “Although there are stories where people asked for promises from various contemporary Gedolim / Rebbes and were told if you want a promise, not just a Brocha, you can only find that by lubavitch”

Surely not “various” contemporary Gedolim but all of them thought that way!

Don’t be ridiculous.

Chossid: “Where do you get this “unless” from?”
I get it from the Rambam where it is quite clear that even if a goy keeps 7 mitzvos he is doing nothing unless he is mekabel in front of three chaveirim.

“Either way lishitasch why don’t you learn chabad chassidus at least Tanya.”
I have mentioned before that I have learnt Tanya, and quite likely even before you were born (even though I have absolutely no idea how old you are!).

“Not like you who simply denies facts according to your personal shita (at least till you tell me names).”
I gave you five reasons why I don’t give names. As I wrote earlier, you don’t have to believe me, but all the shitos that I have espoused I have learnt from sources higher than myself.

“The truth is I really would want to end this conversation, I’m wasting too much time, and it’s addicting.”
My sentiments EXACTLY!

“I hope i didn’t miss understand you this time so I can finish with it.”
I don’t think you misunderstood anything. But I don’t agree with much of what you write.

Chossid: “So let’s get this straight, the Rebbe didn’t make up the CONCEPT of nossi hador, (because the mekoirios do speak about the CONCEPT), rather applied the NAME nossi hador which is brought in Torah (just not recently). And the name is which you don’t like. Ok I have no problem with that.”

We still don’t quite see eye to eye on that. The title Nossi Hador implies more than tzadik hador or gadol hador. It is something akin to what Moshe Rabbeinu was, and applying that title to someone nowadays while meaning the same as tzadik hador is “cheating”.

username: “If someone has true PTSD from a Sukkah”

Then he needs to see a doctor. I don’t believe any non-Lubavich Rov in the world will accept that one can consider not having tzaar as the cause of tzaar that patters one from a sukkah. Lubavicher Rabbonim will only pasken that it can be the cause of tzaar because your rebbe said so, but once we’re disputing the validity of that sevoro then relying on him doesn’t count.

CS: ” see avoda zara 110b”

That explains everything. She has a different Shas than the rest of us and in all the extra pages in her Shas it says all the weird things she writes!

CS: “The Rebbe pretty much vowed he would not go to gan Eden…”

There are a lot of litvaks and Satmarers out there who think that that vow was totally unnecessary…

But seriously, when did he vow this?

CS, do you really think I am stupid or do you just simply not understand?

“Tznius and yiras shomayim are things that are all around and permeate every aspect of our lives…”

Yes, yes, yes. BUT you can’t have kedusha IF you don’t have tznius in clothes. There may be mass murderers out there who dress in yeshivishe levush, and there may be people who dress chassidish who eat dovor acher on Yom Kippur (c”v to both). BUT if you see a group that does not dress tzniusdik then YOU KNOW that they don’t have kedusha regardless of everything else. And Lubavich is unfortunately well-known as having the lowest – and by that I mean against halacha – tznius of women in the chareidi world. (And btw, I mean it when I say “unfortunately”. It’s not something that makes me satisfied that I can use as a weapon.)

Chossid: ” after claiming that “most gedoilim don’t hold of the Rebbe””
Did I really say that? I don’t remember saying it. What I think I remember saying is that most of the chareidi world does not hold of the rebbe, as virtually none of the litvishe/yeshivishe world hold of your rebbe, and MANY right-wing chassidim don’t either.

“and that’s besides the point that he had Ruach hakodesh, and did many miracles. And your not only arguing with the Rebbe himself but all the rebbiem, gedolim, and talmedei chachomim which held of him, Lubavitch, and Chabad chassidus.”
Whoa! First, I don’t believe he had ruach haKodesh, or did miracles, so you’re proving me wrong by saying something I don’t believe.
Second, I am not arguing with all who held of chabad chassidus. I, for what it’s worth, also hold of chabad chassidus. I just don’t believe that the innovations over the last 70 years constitute chabad chassidus.
The Malochim consider themselves chabad chassidus, and they don’t hold of your rebbe or his innovations. So you see that not holding of the latter does not necessarily mean you don’t hold of the former.

“Don’t get me wrong, your allowed to ask questions, but you can’t come to conclusions”
If you don’t hold of someone you can come to conclusions. I would expect that you don’t hold too highly of Rav Shach, and I easily accept that. You are therefore justified in coming to logical conclusions about his views and actions even though you are not a tzaddik or a gadol.

“Hashem should give you all the brochois.
Hatzlocha in all your endeavors.”

Thank you. Vechain lemar.
I am confident that both of us mean those brochos!

Chossid: “From the mekoirios brought before its says that the concept of nossi hador is in every generation (no matter how resent)…… And you say “concept of Nossi Hador is not applicable to anyone alive or who was alive for the last thousands…of years”. Very interesting.”
Are you intentionally misunderstanding what I write? Is that the only way that you can pretend to win the argument?
I said CLEARLY (is there a way of making things bold so I don’t have to use capitals?), and I stand by it, that the concept of “Nossi Hador” does not exist and has not existed for at least hundreds of years. I DID NOT SAY that there is something wrong with saying that someone is the greatest tzaddik of his generation or the gadol hador (although I don’t know who is really qualified to make such a statement). IT IS SPECIFICALLY THE CONCEPT OF “NOSSI HADOR” THAT I OBJECT TO, and none of the mekoros quoted cite that concept. Is that clear now?

“If the people you hold of, say otherwise why are they embarrassed to say it publicly? Aderabeh if they think they are right, they should publicize their shita, that no one should make CV”s a mistake of holding of the Rebbe. And Lubavitch.”
There are a number of valid reasons not to mention names of people who have the views that I quote, all of them true in different circumstances.
1. Some people out there don’t like these things being discussed in an open forum.
2. Some people out there don’t think it proper to use the internet period!
3. Some people out there feel that although much of what lubavich stands for today is a perversion of what they used to stand for, and that it has led many lubavichers to stray close to the line of kefirah, to attack them openly might push some over that line. So it’s more prudent to leave them alone and let them believe what they want.
4. Some people out there don’t want to upset relatives, friends and neighbors.
5. Some people out there are scared of a personal backlash from lubavichers who find out their views.
It is for these reasons that I won’t name anyone who has not made a public statement. That’s why I have no problem naming Rav Shach, as he obviously did not care about any of the above.

“The same oibershther that told us to keep 613 and we have a chiyuv to keep them whether you get malkus or not, the same is with the goiyem, they have a chiyuv to keep 7 mitzvahs benei noach. And therefore we should encourage them to keep them.
whether you like it or not.”
I answered that, and you even quoted my answer in your post! There is a chiyuv of arvus to get Yidden to keep the 613 mitzvos. There is NO arvus when it comes to goyim! I other words, paraphrasing what you wrote, the same Oibershter who told us to get Yidden to keep 613 mitzvos DID NOT tell us to get goyim to keep their 7 mitzvos unless we can get them to be mekabel to do so in front of three Jewish chaveirim. See the same Rambam that you quote.
If a ben Noach keeps 7 mitzvos but is not mekabel to keep them in front of three chaveirim, he is still chayav misa. Furthermore, he has to be mekabel to keep them because they are what Hashem told Moshe that they are what the original Bnei Noach kept. Telling a ben Noach, for example, not to kill because it’s wrong, is pointless. It’s all in the next halacha in the Rambam. And certainly telling a ben Noach not to eat eiver min hachai because it’s cruel to animals is plain wrong.

“And just to note, why are you allowed to do business with goyeim, and hang around them for a whole day, and it’s not a problem of arvus, but when you meet a goiy in the street and tell them nicely about the mitzvos Hashem wants them do fulfill, it’s somehow a problem of arvus.??”
Aha! I just realized why you keep on arguing the same thing even though I have answered it. “Arvus” does not mean mixing, as in dealing with goyim. It means mixing as in we are all one people and all are actions are “mixed” together, so every time any Yid does a mitzvah it affects all of us, and same is true with the reverse. So the simple way of explaining arvus is “responsibility”, as in someone who is an areiv, a guarantor of a loan.
We have no arvus for goyim therefore means that we are not responsible for their actions, and whether they keep their mitzvos or not does not affect us either for the good or the bad.

CS: ““and its good enough for (some of) my mashpiim, even if it doesn’t have an actual source in a sicha, and it works, then it’s good enough for me too and I couldn’t be happier.””

Yes, that is hugely different. However, it is still problematic especially in lubavich where for the past 50 years everything has been, “The rebbe didn’t say it and no one else can make up their own views.” Who gave whichever mashpi’im the right to say that this type of (at the very least) questionable divination via the Igros is ok?

Btw, more in a comment to other lubavichers in the forum than to you, I find the claim that most lubavichers don’t believe in using Igros in that way strange. While I cannot claim that even most of the lubavichers that I know use the Igros, I have never before heard any lubavicher say that it is wrong.

-CS: “you can’t judge numbers by outside appearances in a community where they have a strong incentive to dress that way regardless of their personal private tznius”

Wrong. You CAN judge the level of tznius dressing by outside appearances. What people do in their own homes no one knows. But a major part of tznius is dressing according to halacha (and more so), and if that’s what some groups do they are tzniusdik. Groups that don’t are not.

Someone who keeps Shabbos publicly is considered a shomer Shabbos and we will drink his wine regardless of what he does on Shabbos at home. Someone who is mechalel Shabbos in public has the din of an akum in many areas.

rockstar: “Furthermore, Chossid, if you need a name for RSo’s assertion that other chassidus’s Rebbeim care about their chassidim, you’re out of your mind.

Edited”

How frustrating! It sounded like it was going to get really good.