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Please. Anyone who thinks Haredi Judaism is the way things have always been done is fooling themselves. A particularly naive case of historical revisionism. Haredi Judaism is just as much a modern phenomenon as MO, simply two different responses to modernity.
I think that the Haredi world should focus on its own problems. Traditional Orthodoxy will be just fine thank you.
Har Etzion (Gush) is obviously the most famous MO Yeshiva. KBY is a little more “yeshivish” but a lot of the kids come from MO backgrounds. Shaalavim, Hakotel and Maale Adummim are the other main Hesder yeshivas that cater to MO foreigners. If you would like less of a high level of learning, but also great kids, there is Torat Shraaga, Eretz Hatzvi, Netiv Aryeh, and others. Check the YU Israel Program Website website for a full list.
Tachlis, for the sake of the actual soldiers…I think I feel better some people here don’t say the mi sheberach
Joseph, from what danger exactly should we be davening they be saved from? Certainly I appreciate their sacrifice …..of course I respect the sacrifice of bnei yeshiva who also enlist more, but nevertheless the contribution of those who do not enlist for whatever reason should be appreciated. We go back to the original question however…what exactly should a mi sheberach for avreichim contain? What physical danger do they face? With IDF soldiers I already told you..hence our confusion that there are those who would not daven for their physical safety…or at the very least if they believe that the tefilla is halachkaly unacceptable, to acknowledge the facts
Yes, comparing Hatzolah or construction workers to standing on the Lebanon border with Hezbollah ym”s staring you down is completely valid…..
I would hope that those who do not say the mi sheberach for whatever reason at least appreciate somewhat what it is to be a combat soldier in the IDF. Sadly this does not seem to be the case.
Hakatan:
I see you’re rehashing the same old arguments. Again the MO shita imho and of course in the eyes of our greats is the traditional Torah way going back to Sinai; as a reaction against the Haredi revolution we have dubbed ourselves “modern” or perhaps more appropriately “centrist” orthodoxy, see Rabbis Norman Lamm , Aharon Lichtenstein or Jonathan Sacks for a more broad proofs. It is the Haredim who have simply become more machmir in response to modern culture…while I disagree with this approach obviously I sympathize and of course no MO would call the Haredim illegitimate ch “v. But to call Haredi Judaism “traditional Torah Jewry” is to grossly distort history. Being machmir in response to modern society while understandable in no way makes you traditional I am sorry to say. Also Rav Chaim of Brisk, while certainly being a great gadol, was hardly the only Rabbi of the past 300 years, so continuing to post his views like they are the daas yochid does not make that so
“MO was invented by RYBS around a half-century ago while the Torah was given to us thousands of years ago.”
The term perhaps, and some of the specifics responding to our current environment. But the shitta of learning secular studies and participating in general society is certainly traditional Judaism as our ancestors practiced it. Primary example would of course be the Rambam. Haredi Judaism is a modern day invention to respond to a more open world. Certainly legitimate but hardly traditional Torah Jewry. Ill give you another example…the GRA as is well known translated several geometry books…not a specific isolated example im just demonstrating that what we call MO is more closely aligned with how Judaism has traditionally been practiced.
“Since even he would not say that the latter is true, your premise falls apart.”
You’re right Rav Schachter shlita doesn’t think his own views are legitimate …lol hakatan honestly maybe if you spent half the time that you waste here making a fool of yourself learning something you wouldn’t sound so silly
well seeing that Zionism and the term MO (not the hashkafa of learning secular studies..see my post above) are relatively new..im not sure why they would be addressed by gedolim of years past. So add history to the long list of stuff you need to learn
MO as defined today has just as much or more tradition behind it than whatever titles haredim are making up for themselves these days
“MO theology is baseless and wrong according to the Torah greats”
OK Hakatan (btw great username)….since you continue to demonstrate to us what an ignoramus is, I will be happy to teach you a new concept….its called machlokes. What it means is that sometimes rabbanim disagree. So when you said “the” Torah greats what you really should have typed is “some” Torah greats.
Rav Herschel Schachter shlita, for example, is what we call a Gadol, and he would probably disagree about MO being illegitimate. This is just so you understand what a machlokes is, so as to address your claim regarding what “all” the gedolim say about MO. Again I reiterate that your approval of our lifestyle means literally nothing to any of us.
Hakatan I have an author whom I strongly recommend. Called the Rambam. Judging by your stance on secular studies you’ve obviously never opened one of his sefarim. But maybe he’s not gadol in your eyes.
Again MO Judaism is not one iota less legitimate than whatever you call yourselves. And again so sorry those gedolim I posted are on par with reform rabbis in your holy eyes. Your gaivah is truly astounding. Why don’t you spend less time in the coffee room lecturing those less kodesh than you and go open up a mussar sefer.
Imagine a mo yid ripping on Rav Kanievsky ch”v. Now switch it around and you have Hakatan belittling Torah giants who espoused a different hashkafa. You’re not in their league, or even within 10000 leagues of their toenail. Enough.
I usually just read here but I felt the need to respond to those so arrogant as to slander the hashkafa of so many Orthodox yidden
To Hakatan and all the other am aratzim on this thread:
You don’t hold a finger to Rav Soloveitchik zt”l , Rav Kook zt”l, Rav Lichtenstein zt”l, or any other MO/ Zionist gedolim about whom you are so brazen to speak negatively about. You are way out of line. You will never be in the same stratosphere as any modern Orthodox gadol, whom are just as knowledgeable as any Haredi gadol. Shame on you
And we don’t need the approval of peasants for our lifestyle
I hope the mods will let this be posted.
Yes, just to show that being affiliated with any particular Hashkafah does not make one immune from Gaavah or Sinah.
When the state of Israel was founded there were 400 bachurim exempted from the army. Today there are over 60,000. But ya the Zionists really tried to destroy the Torah. Might I remind you none of that would have happened had they not fight and died for the state. Great hakaras hatov you guys show.
“Untill Zionism started, Jews and Arabs co-existed impressively peacefully across the middle east”
well obviously, as the Arabs had no reason to dislike Jews prior to Zionism. But today we have the state of Israel where Jews, frum as well as non-frum, can reside freely. Certainly a worthwhile bargain no? It’s like saying you wouldn’t move to New York because since Jews live there there’s anti-semetism there.There’s virtually zero anti-semetism in China, I wonder why? Because theres no Jews there. Same principle.
lots of sad excuses here for not making aliyah….