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October 1, 2013 6:18 pm at 6:18 pm in reply to: How long should someone stay in Beis Medrash #976644rebdonielMember
I can give you an answer based in halakha.
No problem with learning full time for a few years, then going to college and learning part time, and learning while working. This way, you can support a family, not become a burden to others, and continue growing in learning.
rebdonielMemberWhat do pawpaws taste like?
And if you made kosher ham, that would impress me. I’ve tried making it before, with a leg of lamb I get from a Sephardic shochet/menaker in NJ. Came out really well.
rebdonielMemberApparently, chocolate spread on bread is not unique to Israel. I know many Italians who have eaten nutella on Italian bread.
Israeli nutella is Kosher for Passover for ochlei kitniyot, and it has become a regular part of our Pesach routine. I enjoy it sandwiched between matzot or it goes really well when used to make sandwich cookies for Passover (I smear a teaspoon between 2 Oberlander’s chocolate lady fingers).
I also tried Elite Passover spread this year, but it tasted like chemicals and booze. Feh.
rebdonielMemberIt amazes me how divergent these discussions become. We went from an OTD guy’s woes, to discussions of how Hasidic thought has similarities to Christianity, and now to discussions whether sabbath desecration is worse than rape. This forum has a mind of its own.
rebdonielMemberIf you want to give him a gift in the yichud room, give him a watch or cufflinks with a personalized engraving on them.
rebdonielMemberWIY: this is what I feel exactly. This is why I call it machasheifah medicine, or kishuf/witchcraft medicine.
rebdonielMemberAlternative medicine actually does have a relative lack of basis in both reality and halakha. Machashaifeh “medicine” is not legitimate refuah from the perspective of halakha.
rebdonielMemberEnergy healing is assur on the grounds it can eb a form of kishuf. Using medical procedures that do not have a rational basis behind them is contrary to belief in Hashem, and can cause people to be open to all kinds of ideas that originate from idol worship and are in contrast to the way Hashem created his world.
This woman sounds like a machashaifeh or fortune teller of sorts.
rebdonielMemberShe’s a quack and the whole premise of her work is quackery, thereby rendering it assur.
rebdonielMemberI made dairy cholent one shabbat with Morningstar Farms crumbles. It came out well. Left the pot in a low, low oven over shabbat.
rebdonielMemberSqueak is correct, actually, about the connection between Hasidut and Christianity. See Shaul Magid’s article “Brother Where Art Thou?,” as well as Rivash, Shut 157, where he explains similarities between the belief in Sefirot and Trinitarianism (see also the writings of R’ Leon deModena on this point). Of course, the belief that a rebbe or tzaddik can pull one out of gehenam by the peyos (R’ Nachman miBreslov, trans. Rabbi Nachman’s Wisdom #141), the belief that a chicken’s blood can provide vicarious atonement (kapparot), the belief that tzaddikim suffer due to the sins of the dor, the belief that there will be a second coming of the mashiach (many Lubavitchers believe this), and associations between mashiach and the 53rd perek of Yeshaya seen in much kabbalistic and hasidic literature seem to demonstrate similarities between Xianity and Hasidic thought.
rebdonielMemberI’d be one to agree with PBA. I had 2 relationships that never materialized, and in both cases, I felt I did everything “right.” (Parnassa-bound, sweet, attentive, generous, funny, passionate about HaShem and Torah, respectful and helpful to their families, etc.) I felt that the women I was with were meshugenneh (one did go to a shrink and had hurtful tendencies, and essentially played “blame the victim” as a means of deflecting blame from herself, and the other was davka on meds and saw a psychiatrist). But, alas, these weren’t bashert. They weren’t meant to be. And in retrospect, I thank HaShem they failed. I’m happier single now than I was with those beasts.
In Jewish history, women are often the source or cause of men’s downfall and misfortune. Look at Adam and Chava. Lot and his wicked daughters. Romance results in Yaakov Avinu becoming a laborer for 14 years in total. Shimshon and Delilah (he wasn’t such a gibor when it came to resisting feminine wiles). Jezebel was a wicked queen who brought idolatry upon the Jewish people. Shlomo haMelech’s women led him away from G-d. Maacah married Rehoboam, Shlomo’s eldest son, and when Abiyah succees Rehoboam, Maacah the Queen Mother brings avodah zarah into the mix, notably worship of Baal and Asherah. No wonder why Hazal tell men to avoid women, even their own wives.
Abusive partners sadly are abundant, both abusive women and men, although I find that abusive women tend to be more into psychological and emotional manipulation and subterfuge when compared to men.
September 30, 2013 1:47 pm at 1:47 pm in reply to: Frustrated at being in the middle of nowhere USA. #976599rebdonielMemberI suggest the following plan:
1) Learn how to read Hebrew well. Learn some Hebrew grammar, as well.
2) Read a book like Sha’arei Halacha or another kitzur sefer. Get a basic understanding of what you need to do halakhically, as far as prayer, dress, eating, berachot, shmirat shabbat, yomim tovim, etc. go
3) Practice Hebrew reading as much as you can. I’d start with looking at the weekly torah portion (and haftorah), and by now, maybe also get a feel for ta’amei hamikra, trope.
4) Practice the prayers in the siddur, and get a sense for the phraseology and nusach of prayers for weekdays, shabbat, and chagim.
5) Learn some of the songs and tunes most commonly used: such as for kiddush, havdalah, Shir ha Ma’alot, the first bracha of bentching, some table zemirot, etc. This will help you survive in Jewish settings. I’d suggest an NCSY bentcher.
After you practice these, you’ll be able to function relatively well in the shul and in a frum home. I’d suggest after getting down these basics, only then, progress in your learning to things like Mishna and whatnot.
rebdonielMemberI know I can always count on Dr. Hall to corroborate the reasonable things I have to say here.
rebdonielMemberFerster
Hat Box
rebdonielMemberI’d also say that the fact that you’re living in Israel, serving to defend the land and the people of Israel, and are still probably living somewhat Jewishly, as Israeli society inherently follows Jewish time and norms, attests that you’re not entirely a lost soul. Your parents should still be proud of you. I’m certainly proud of any young person who volunteers to enlist in the IDF, but I’d also say that Zionism and living in Israel only is worth anything if it’s accompanied by spiritual elevation, or aliyah, as well. And for Jews, keeping the Torah and its mitzvot is the only means of experiencing such elevation.
rebdonielMemberI think the lesson behind Marcheshvan is that we need to infuse everyday life with holiness and impart everyday life with a sense of what we should have learned over the past couple of months. Elul should teach us the necessity of asking G-d’s forgiveness and selicha. Rosh HaShanah should impart in us a sense of awe of G-d’s Kingship and Dominion. Yom Kippur should remind us of the need to constantly seek to do teshuva and amend and improve our ways. Sukkot is a reminder of the passing and fleeting nature of the world and its inherent follies (Kohelet). Hoshana Rabba is a reminder to again to improve the world and make permanent changes in it. Shemini Atzeret is to remind us of the need to internalize what symbols are supposed to represent to us, and to focus on our inner selves and experiencing inner joy, Simchat Torah is a reminder of the need to always delight and rejoice in the Torah, and Shabbat Bereshit is a reminder of the need to be focused on our renewal and on the ever-turning cycle of creation and Torah.
Our task is to incorporate these psycho-spiritual messages into our everyday lives and to elevate the mundane.
rebdonielMemberPeople are made by God for the purpose of serving Him. Your choices are irrational and contravene logic.
Do yourself a favor and read Aristotle and then the Moreh Nevuchim.
I always had an inner sense of morality, hence I never engaged in ishes-ish, etc. (Smoking, while unhealthy, actually isn’t seen as devinat in frum society; it is unfortunately an activity which many very frum yeshiva guys partake in). I don’t know what the OP’s circumstances are, but he should understand that his choices are heartbreaking for his mom and dad, since he’s rejecting everything they invested lots of time and money towards instilling in him. Some parents would even say kaddish and sit shiva for such a kid.
rebdonielMemberScientific discoveries are not at odds with Torah because the Torah is not a scientific textbook. It never was intended to be an authoritative source of history, cosmology, geology, etc.
rebdonielMemberI’m looking forward to our third marathon of 3 day yontiff.
I have prepared farfel, 2 kinds of kugel, yapzik, chicken salad, potato blintzes, meatballs, bbq chicken, sweet and sour chicken, tzimmes, tomato charif (for the meat meals), and am doing dairy for 2 meals (Friday lunch and Simchas Torah dinner). A gut kvittel to all.
rebdonielMemberMussaf is always done during CHM in phreigish/Yom Tov nusach; on HHM Shabbos Mussaf, the additions for shabbos are done in Shabbos amidah nusach.
The yom tov musaf prayers post-Amidah are said, as Sam said. The high holiday kaddish titkabal of Yankel der Hezeriker is used after hoshanos (many of us use this after all of mussaf shalosh regalim); I’ve even heard some people use yamim noraim nusach for pezukei dezimrah, barechu, and michamocha.
September 25, 2013 6:28 am at 6:28 am in reply to: Frustrated at being in the middle of nowhere USA. #976589rebdonielMemberYou don’t have to wear a black hat, or speak yeshivish shprach, or engage in the social conventions of the right wing to be a good Jew. Stay focused on learning torah, observing halakha, and being a good person.
rebdonielMemberThey have no class.
September 24, 2013 6:41 pm at 6:41 pm in reply to: How to enforce Tznius guidelines in a Kehillah #976160rebdonielMemberTurning away women from shul for not being dressed appropriately would solve this problem, but this could never be implemented for obvious reasons.
September 24, 2013 5:34 pm at 5:34 pm in reply to: Frustrated at being in the middle of nowhere USA. #976587rebdonielMembera) If you thumb through the Union Hymnal, they selected pieces which were largely adapted from tehillim. The idea was to lend the synagogue some dignity and decorum and some class. Chief Rabbi Hertz, zt”l, cites Isaac Watts’ hymn “O God Our Help in Ages Past” (psalm 90) as “a cherished spiritual possession of the English-speaking race” on page 887 of his Humash and on page 150 of his “Book of Jewish Thoughts,” he includes the hymn verbatim. Likewise, the Hampstead Synagogue, which was one of the best representatives of Minhag Anglia, sang Handel’s Hallelujah Chorus, upon the 100th anniversary of the shul’s consecration. Rav Yisrael Moshe Hazzan (Kerakh Shel Romi 4b) even encouraged cantors to sit in churches in order to listen to their music and writes there that when Jewish aesthetics are beneath those of the non-Jews, Jews are duty bound to adopt the higher standard of aesthetic. Singing religious songs in the vernacular therefore wouldn’t (And shouldn’t) be considered a violation of lo telechu, when that issur is understood as a prohibition against adopting pagan practices from non-Jewish religions. Singing religious hymns in the vernacular doesn’t strike me as such, especially if you believe Christianity to not be avodah zarah. Hasidim borrowed many tunes from Poles and Slavic peasants. The Syrian nusach hatefillah is largely borrowed from Arab musical traditions, with the system of maqamot that is used in Muslim worship. Ashkenazic nusach hatefillah bears many similarities to Gregorian chant. We furthermore acknolwedge the existence of non-Jewish prophets and “Ma Tovu” is part of the Torah, despite its origins.
b) The rigidity of what we think of as Orthodoxy, and the very relegation of halakhic observance to one denomination, is a function of circumstance. Most historians agree with my observation; prior to Reform, our sages were flexible in a way that Orthodox Judaism today would never entertain. The Hatam Sofer’s polemics, as well as the polemics of many others, were a visceral, knee-jerk reaction against the excesses of the reformers. Do you seriously think an approach which looks at critical manuscripts and acknowledges them in a way with bearing on halakha (as did the Gra) would be allowed in today’s Orthodox Judaism? Many things which are halakhically allowed we don’t do purely because we’re afraid of looking like the Conservative movement.
rebdonielMemberA fresser is a big eater in Yiddish. Like someone who can eat a plate of cholent and kugel at shul kiddush, and then go home and eat a seuda there. One thing I’ve been trying hard in the new year to do is reduce nivul peh; I’ve been told that some things I say, particularly words beginning with c or t, are the epitome of classlessness. Lips are a very powerful thing for Jews, and speech must reflect what we want to truly reside within the heart and neshama.
rebdonielMemberA hafifnik is someone who’d we consider somewhat traditional or observant of certain things but not of others. I guess like conservadoxish to the American mind. It’s an Israeli appellation for those whose religious commitments are kind of half-baked; i.e. they may keep kosher in the home, but not so strictly outside of the home. Such a person is probably leninent about things like premarital sex, or tzniut, or tefillah; they maintain social and synagogue ties to the Orthodox community, but they’re not what we’d think of as frum.
rebdonielMemberThere’s also no reason why you couldn’t use nesarim, narrow slats of lumber/wood, for sechach. The Gemara mentions these explicitly. These would be a lot cheaper than buying a bamboo schach mat with hashgacha. Rambam, Hilchot Sukkah 5:7, says:
“Boards which are less than four handbreadths wide may be used for sechach even though they have been planed. If they are more than four handbreadths wide, they should not be used as s’chach, even though they have not been planed. This is a decree [instituted] lest one sit under a roof and regard it as a sukkah.
If one placed a board which was more than four handbreadths wide over [a sukkah, the sukkah] is kosher. However, one should not sleep under the board. A person who did sleep under the board has not fulfilled his obligation.
There were boards that were four handbreadths wide, but less than four handbreadths thick. A person turned them on their side so that they would not be four handbreadths wide to use them as s’chach. This is not acceptable, because a board is unacceptable for use as s’chach whether one uses its width or thickness.”
rebdonielMemberWe don’t have a Sanhedrin standing nowadays. Only an authoritative Sanhedrin can do something like abrogate yom tov sheni in chutz la aretz.
September 24, 2013 2:34 am at 2:34 am in reply to: Frustrated at being in the middle of nowhere USA. #976578rebdonielMemberI was raised with Classical Reform; i.e. we used a prayer book (Union Prayer Book) which refers to the rabbi as “Minister,” we had organ music, choirs, English hymns (some of them very beautiful, taken from the Protestant tradition, which are not theologically problematic for Jews), kashrut was anathema, the Pittsburgh Platform of 1885, the Brunswick Synod, and the catechism of Isaac Mayer Wise, the systematic theology of Kaufmann Kohler, and the catechisis and theological works of scholars like Joseph Krauskopf, Joseph Mendes deSola, Solomon Sonnenschein, Felix Adler, and others comprised our theology. Interfaith theology and spirituality, as well as religious humanism, were also part of this approach. As a child, I pitied and looked askance at Orthodox Jews. I thought they were backwards, ignorant, tribal, corrupt, and cruel, heartless people who reject children and turn away converts. I felt that they could have used our enlightened approach and our dignified worship. I eventually began to see this as at odds with what I read in the Torah, and had to leave. Orthodoxy is imperfect and is a reaction against Reform, but Orthodoxy is the only movement that is home to a committed cadre of observant Jews. I’d say to think independently and critically while living halakhically.
rebdonielMemberThe Rambam says that anytime you go to dwell in the sukkah, regardless of whether you eat or not, you make a bracha. The Rambam rules that one must recite Leisheiv B’Sukkah whenever he enters the sukkah (Hilchos Sukkah 6:12- Kol zeman sheyikanes leishev bassukkah kol shiv’ah, mevarech kodem sheiyeshev ‘asher kiddeshanu bemitzvotav vetzivvanu leishev bassukkah). The essence of Yeshiva Be Sukkah is not per se an act at all; rather, the mitzvah is the experience of dwelling in the sukkah, not the raw acts one performs while there. In other words, the Rambam maintains that one fulfills Yeshiva B’Sukkah by being in a state of Yeshiva B’Sukkah, such that one is based in the sukkah and experiences it as his home; the technical acts of eating, drinking and sleeping in the sukkah are merely a reflection of this state of existence. Therefore, when one goes into the sukkah, even to sleep, one would make the beracha according to this view, as he would make the beracha each time he enters the sukkah.
rebdonielMemberIf your hafifnik friend is convinced they’re doing things 100% correctly, and if they think their be diavad lifestyle is lechatchila and there’s no chance of having a good hashpa’ah on them, then I can see why they’d make a bad friend. I recently was in a situation where I dated someone for a few months who was seemingly interested in becoming a baalat teshuva; her father was raised frum, but he went off the derech before he hot married to the girl’s very secular mother. At first, she was observant but this waned throughout the relationship and she ultimately decided that being religious wasn’t for her and that she really isn’t religious. The lesson I learned is that deep commitment to Judaism is something that must be present in all I-Thou relationships. I make friends and will ultimately want to marry someone who is as into Judaism as I am; it’s not something that you do on shabbos or when you go to shul. Judaism isn’t a religion. It’s something that either permeates your entire being and influences your entire life and all your decisions, or it doesn’t. You either have Torah or you don’t. My best friends are those who submit themselves wholeheartedly to Torah and the halakhic system and make it their entire life.
rebdonielMemberA heter based on the fact that something is not nahug is relatively meaningless if we take a positivist view of halakha. But I’ll reserve my Maimonidean impulses for other venues.
Sleeping in the sukkah is something I was zoche to do the first night of sukkot. I had set up an aerobed in the sukkah. The Rema explains, “U’mah shenohagin lehakel achshav beshenah, she ein yeshenim be sukkah rak hamedakdekin bemitzvot; i.e. on his days only those careful about mitzvot slept in the sukkah, presumably due to either a) the Mordechai’s explanation that the extreme cold precludes the practice (Mishum Tzinah, d’yesh tza’ar leyashen
bammekomot hakkarim), since it is uncomfortable to sleep outdoors in the cold, or b) his explanation, that sleeping in a sukkah, unless a private sukkah, prevents husband and wife from sleeping together. This he bases on his understanding of teishvu k’ein taduru, i.e. that yeshiva be sukkah ought to be like one’s year round dwelling. The Gra, to my mind, is correct in stating that this application of teishvu k’ein taduru lacks Talmudic support. The circumstances that the Talmud discusses in terms of what would make a person patur from sleeping in the sukkah don’t seem to support allowing a married man patur.
rebdonielMemberLhota has the police on his side, due to his support for stop and frisk. In NYC, many consider safety to be our number one priority, and I think that this will loom heavily on the minds of many voters. Those who are concerned with social programs and entitlements will most likely vote for De Blasio, although Joe Lhota is no right-winger. He’s in favor of legalization of pot, he’s pro-choice, pro-gay marriage, and he recently said he’d support a $500 million univeral pre-k program. There’s a very good article in the NY Times from the other day by Michael Powell, “The Opposite of Bloomberg? Not So Fast,” that I’d strongly suggest the public read.
September 17, 2013 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm in reply to: Video being taken in Shul on Rosh HaShana #975500rebdonielMemberI’ve seen the news on Saturday evenings where you have very frum looking people agreeing to be interviewed on camera on shabbat, and I’ve seen other newscasts where a spokesman for a Hasidic block or group will say on camera, “no interviews” due to shabbat. In the case you mentioned above, nobody consented to the melacha, and the goy did this on his own. Also, whether using a camera is even melacha is up to debate (ketiva?)
September 17, 2013 7:59 pm at 7:59 pm in reply to: At what point are you officially one side or the other? #983442rebdonielMemberWhat we perceive of as left vs. right seems to be rooted in hashkafic differences and different views of how mekorot are to be applied in the 21st century.
One cannot draw lines in the sand so easily, however. My reading of sources, and my choice of rabbis lead me to positions which differ along left-right lines. Nobody is left-right all the time. Example- Rav Benzion Uziel, zt”l, was someone who paskened very courageously on issues such as conversion, agunot, women’s place in society, abortion, etc. Yet he didn’t believe modern scientific knowledge was of much importance and he seriously believed that talmudic accounts of parthenogenesis should be taken seriously.
Likewise, I know a rabbi who for many years was the rav of a traditional/conservadoxish shul, yet he refused to carry in his town’s eruv, because this rabbi is someone who is a Rambamist/legal positivist and not a legal realist. Plenty of people in all sorts of old world levush, on the contrary, will carry in eruvin with very scant halakhic basis.
Rav Yitzchak Abadi has stances on kashrut that most MO people wouldn’t hold by, yet he is extremely black hat and says that shaking a woman’s hand under any circumstance is yehareg ve al ya’avor.
I think such matters should be looked at on a one-by-one basis. It’s unfair to make blanket generalizations about people.
I will say, however, that MO tends to be more of a sociological categorization, in the sense that people will assume someone’s MO status based on appearances, or even laziness in observance, such as not saying asher yatzar after using the restroom. I think many MO people view halakha and observance in terms of minimalist floors, rather than maximalist ceilings; i.e. they believe that keeping shabbat, eating kosher, going to shul once a week, and keeping taharat hamishpacha are sufficient to live Jewishly.
rebdonielMemberA person could inspect the klaf against a reputable tikkun sofrim.
rebdonielMemberI use scalloppine/cutlets, dredge in flour, salt, pepper (use potato starch for Pesach), saute in olive oil and earth balance on both sides (not too long), and then in the pan drippings, add chopped shallots, garlic, an assortment of mushrooms, and Marsala. I allow this to reduce (the flour helps thicken) with the cutlets in the pan, and I finish with parsley. It works very well with boneless, skinless chicken thighs pounded into medallions, as well.
September 17, 2013 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm in reply to: Gluten-Free Recipes for Chol HaMoed Sukkos? #975376rebdonielMemberAre you looking for entrees, sides, or desserts?
rebdonielMemberIf you’re part of a black hat community, wear one.
rebdonielMemberHalakha does permit endogamous marriages, such as among cousins (I’d say that as part of ushmartem et nafshoteichem, there ought to be a takkanah banning these unions, due to genetic difficulties, as well as chillul hashem, since we view this as an Appalachian/backwards practice nowadays). It wouldn’t be unreasonable that a boy would have physical urges or impure thoughts towards such a cousin, especially if there was distance between them, and in such case, he should avoid idle chatter with them. But if the cousin is like a sister to him (and this is true in many families), I don’t see the harm in talking.
September 17, 2013 4:46 pm at 4:46 pm in reply to: Tension based on spouse's change in tznius #975470rebdonielMemberKissui harosh is very important, obviously. If a wife reduced her tzniut standards, than al pi din, that’s a dealbreaker. If a wife increases her level of tzniut to the point where a husband is not attracted to her, than that is a problem requiring pastoral and marital counseling.
rebdonielMemberStateside: 2nd Avenue Deli, Ben’s Best, Ben’s (for deli), the V Spot (for their Latino cooking), Buddha Bodhai, and Lin’s Chinese (for Chinese), Mendelsohn’s, Bravo, Viva, and Pizza de Solo (for pizza), Tevere 84 (for Italian), Olympic Pita (for Israeli), David’s (for Syrian), Grill 212 (for Temani), Gotham Burger Company in Teaneck, Mexikosher in LA, Milton’s BBQ in Chitown, Kens Diner in Chitown, Basil in CH (best dairy Italian), Burritolam in Teaneck (for quick Mexican), Shalom Bombay, Ladino Tapas, Madras Mahal, Arzu and Salut (for Bukharian)
Israel: Papagaio, Little Italy, O’Connell, Black Bar and Burger, Uno (Tel Aviv), Galileo, Etzle haTurki (only kosher Turkish restaurant in the world probably, since Piyaz in Queens closed).
rebdonielMemberVeal marsala is to die for, one of my favorite dishes. Thanks for giving me the idea of having it le kavod yom tov. Do you use Roland cooking marsala? It’s OU and available just about anywhere.
rebdonielMemberVeal marsala is to die for, one of my favorite dishes. Thanks for giving me the idea of having it le kavod yom tov. Do you use Roland cooking marsala? It’s OU and available just about anywhere.
rebdonielMemberI’d suggest Riverdale for an inclusive, Orthodox community where Bt’s would feel comfortable. The only MO shuls in Brooklyn are on the moribund end of things, sadly.
rebdonielMemberI think that the core of all mystical, meditative spiritual practices, whether Sufism, Zen, Lectio Divina, Yoga, or Hitbobedut, is essentially the same: to tap into closeness and a state of being in tune with the Heart and Will of the Ground of all Being. I’d suggest reading The Jew in the Lotus for more on the overlap between Jewish mindful practice and the Zen tradition.
rebdonielMemberMuch better to end an engagement (or near-engagement). Relatively few halakhic consequences, relatively little financial loss, and you avoid the heartbreak and problems of a miserable marriage.
rebdonielMember1) Be extra careful in your driving and car maintenance.
2) Consider donating to Chaverim and also helping people you see on the roads in need of help, as a means of increasing shalom and passing on the kindness.
3) Don’t take things like your car and the kindness of others for granted.
rebdonielMemberImagine does express a worldview which is difficult to reconcile with some traditional conceptions of things. OTOH, in the Messianic era, there will be freedom from want and all of humanity will worship G-d in purity.
Lenny Solomon came out with a CD putting some of the tefillot to Beatles tunes. And in the non-orthodox movements, there are frequently Beatles services and Dylan services. I’ve also heard of Beatles services in liberal Protestant churches.
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