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Hashem yishmor – I just heard this little boy was hit by a drunk driver. Besides davening, PLEASE be ultra-careful not to let anyone around you drive after drinking on Purim (or anytime!)
plonis3141: Obviously I’m not upset at anyone who actually works, pays FULL taxes, pays FULL arnona, pays bituach leumi & mas briut, doesn’t complain about being discriminated against just because someone asks for everyone to work & pay their own way, etc. Look, I know that it’s not easy to see that someone who is different than you and doesn’t agree with a hashkafa that you may associate with is actually not out to get you. I don’t hate chareidim at all despite the attacks I’ve received about that here. It’s not chareidim that I really disagree with, it’s the leadership of the chareidi parties and the others that help set the chareidi culture that I disagree with. I feel that they’re creating and still pushing an unfair and unsustainable system. Chareidi people who work and pay fairly are in my book the same as anyone else here.
The army thing is an important topic that can’t be ignored either. I’ve said several times that the chareidi movement as a whole (again, the movement and the leadership, not necessarily the individual family) could have done much better by working with the soldiers as opposed to turning their backs on them (at best) or even cursing them (at worst). Make the soldiers feel that their learning is actually part of the betterment of the nation and for our defense. Try setting up chavruta programs with soldiers, set up Shabbos hospitality for soldiers who are not as frum as you, hold special prayer and learning sessions for the safety of the soldiers and security personnel. I don’t mean just hold a tehillim session for your own safety when the missiles start flying but truly daven & learn for the safety of the soldiers that are your counterparts – just like they did in the time of the Tanach. By now, it’s too late and the non-chareidim who have been serving in the army or sheirut leumi are upset and feel used. This was a huge loss for the pro-Torah cause in this country and a missed opportunity for the chareidi movement to improve the religious situation here.
yichusdik – you said everything so well – and you have a way of saying it that hopefully won’t be taken as inflammatory the way my words are sometimes.
shein, I would like to truly thank you for every word you just posted. It sums up the problem so perfectly that I couldn’t have done it better myself. In fact, had I even tried to post the same exact words as you just did, the moderators would never had posted my comment because it would have been considered “anti-chareidi.”
By the way, just recognize that the government of Israel does NOT make it illegal for chareidi people to work before age 28. In fact, it’s the chareidi movement that has created that dilema by refusing to take part in the country in which they reside. They refuse to keep accept that dinei d’malchusa dina. No one forces chareidim to refuse to join the army OR TO DO A SHEIRUT LEUMI program! How many times does someone on this site need to point out that a sheirut leumi program is CHESED? As was said before – the chareidi tzibur would have been much better off putting all of their efforts into making chareidi chesed projects into acceptable sheirut leumi programs. They also should have spent their time and effort creating better army programs for themselves. Instead, they (you) will continue down this path of hatred toward the government and people who build and secure this country in which you live and learn.
Health – you are living in a fatasy world that is based on your own magical mathematics. You say “I personally hold you shouldn’t take money from the Medina for schools and you owe them nothing including going to their army.” However, you’re obviously oblivious to the basics of economics and life in a society. You think that the only reason you owe the country that you’re living in something is because you get money for your schools!?!?!? The Torah says that the law of the land (any land) is the law that a Torah observant Jew must follow. The laws of the land of Israel have the same halacha and possibly even more so. This is NOT a time or place where the king is demanding excessive taxes that may allow us to halachically not pay them. Anyone living here (even non-citizens) uses tremendous amounts of resources – healthcare, roads, garbage collection, police, fire, electrical & water infrastructure, airport, defense services, the economy, agriculture, etc, etc, etc. You owe something to the government and people here even if you don’t take money for your schools!
Now, very concerning to me is your claim that “You can be part of Medical insurance because these type of things every country has.” I’m not sure what you’re even referring to but you have certainly justified to yourself the use of a VERY expensive service despite not paying the full bill for it. This country provides a socialized medicine system but that’s NOT the case in most countries at all! I guess some people aren’t aware (Obama supporters sure aren’t) that even socialized medicine has to be paid for. In Israel, there are income taxes that go toward paying for that healthcare – it’s one of the reasons we have higher tax rates than in the US. However, if you aren’t paying full income taxes then you are using very expensive services without paying for it. After a few too many people do that, the system becomes unsustainable and that’s precisely what the current situation is. That’s why there are so many people working to change this situation but the chareidi tzibur just run around saying this is all about “closing yeshivas” and trying to make the chareidim not religious. It’s rediculous and obnoxious to say… the best is when you then call anyone who wants to build a fair and sustainable system “goyim” (all the words of the chareidi parties, NOT mine!)
To mutche: I’m going to bet that you have absolutely no source whatsoever for your claimed “facts.” You say that “percentage-wise there are more chareidim working than there are chilonim.” To that I’ll say “Did you know that 97.4% of all statistics are just made up on the spot?” I’m gonna call “bluff” because you’re incorrect – by far.
As for your claim that chareidi families have larger families and therefore pay more “of their monthly meager income to food taxes etc, than the average chiloni family.” OK, so apparently you don’t understand some basics of economics (that’s one of those things you need to learn in school in order to get a good job).
Firstly, there are more working chareidim here than admit to it. They often work in cash or somehow off the books – this means that they’re NOT paying any income taxes at all so take them out of the equation.
Secondly, the ones that do work on the books often do in fact have meager incomes (as you pointed out). That means that they don’t meet the threshold for paying income taxes at all so take that next group out of the equation. Many others just make it into the lowest tax brackets which don’t cover the expense of the services that they use.
Thirdly, you complain (assumingly on their behalf) that they only earn a meager income. Problem with your argument is that they created that problem! In fact, now that they’ve been creating that problem for quite a few years now, they refuse to help change the situation even to help their own tzibur!
Fourthly, the VAT that is paid on food or other things here is 17%. In contrast, the income tax brackets for most non-chareidi perople are significantly higher than that (sometimes double or more!). There’s also bituach leumi (social security taxes). That means that the non-chareidi families are paying the 17% VAT *on top of* the income taxes & bituach leumi they already pay from their salaries.
Fifthly, tuition for chareidi schools are often heavily susidized here unlike in the US. Your comment about the chareidi private schools somehow saving a lot of money is bizaare and wrong. It makes me think you don’t live here or certainly don’t know the reality of what’s going on here.
I think the basic problem comes down to this – the chareidi tzibur (especially the leadership) base all of their calculations on some kind of magical mathematics where everything is free except for the things you actually buy (housing, food, clothes). The truth is, while we all hate taxes, they actually do pay for the things we use on a daily basis. Healthcare, roads, public lighting, police, garbage collection, water and electrical infrastructure, parks, airport, municipal and national government, defense, kitzvat yeladim, disability coverage, etc, etc, etc. If you are a family who lives here (even if you’re not a citizen) then you use most or all of these services. If you don’t pay full taxes then you’re NOT FINANCIALLY CONTRIBUTING TO THE COUNTRY. Instead, you are taking tremendous amounts of money from the country.
I love it, you go around saying that we only take money because the medinah has laws that let us take it. At the same time you say that the medinah is treif and a horrible thing. Then you’re completely ungrateful & complain that the money is not enough to live off of. Then you say that you really want to work but you’re discriminated against. Then you say that anyone who wants to change the laws is just someone who “hates charedim” but you also yell out that it’s “changing the status quo.”
Hello!!! Wake up!!! You can’t go around being greedy and then ungrateful and then accusatory… and then be upset about the person who’s paying the bill wanting to “change the status quo.” Of course, then you realize that you’ve been peeing into the well that you drink from so it’s time to quickly run to the people that you’ve been calling “goyim” and playing the “we’re all religious” card and we should all stand together. This is not a hashkafa, it’s being manipulative and it’s a tired act.
Confucious, a lot of people have already answered this. There are chareidim who do work but without a proper secular education they are most often left with jobs that don’t pay well, have no future and leave them unable to support their families (let alone pay their fair share in taxes). You say that “they will continue to work without a secular education. Whether you like it or not.” Yes, that may be true that they’ll continue but it’s not really about whether I like it or not. This affects them too and probably more than me! More importantly, as long as chareidim (as a whole) insist on continuing down this path, the vast majority of the society in EY will continue to change the laws so that we don’t have to foot the bill.
shein – this is the basic hashkafic argument. Halacha says quite a bit about this issue but you have to be intellectually honest to understand that. The chareidi movement has been given a tremendous amount but have not kept their part of the deal. There’s just so long that you can continue to take money before the system collapses under its own weight!
A case in point – the city where we live has been growing in the number of chareidi families tremendously over the years. Way too many of those families get a 90% discount on their arnona (property taxes). It’s now come to the point that there’s simply not enough money coming in from taxes to cover expenses. So, the municipality keeps refusing to pay for necessities. Instead of telling the chareidim that we simply can’t afford this anymore -They have recently raised our taxes in a most unscrupulous way – they reassessed everyone’s taxes by charging for communal spaces. A quote from the chareidi newspaper: “almost 70% of homeowners” had their assessments raised by including “areas such as elevator piers, stairwells, pergolas and even the area where the trash bins are situated as taxable property.” This was done because the city was asking the discount to be lowered from 90% to 70%. That means they were asking the chareidim to pay the smallest amount more in order to cover the expenses THAT THEY BENEFIT FROM EVERY DAY! They’re taxing us on the place where the dumpsters are in order to avoid charging the chareidim their fare share!!!!! The absolute worst of it – the chareidi paper is proud of it and said that this reassessment more than makes up for the difference.
This is the reason that so many people in Israel (both religious and not-yet-religious) are so fed up with the chareidi mentality. The chareidi movement (I’m careful to recognize that not every chareidi person is this way but the leadership is) has chosen to be unreasonable. They think of themselves and their money instead of thinking of what’s good for the Jewish people. Yes, this is the reason that people say it’s time to get an education and work. And I don’t mean just work a underpaying job or off-the-books job that keeps you under the poverty level and therefore exempt from income taxes.
I agree with you truthsharer 100%. It’s sad to see how many people here seem to forget the basics that we’re taught in Tanach and in our history. Akuperma goes on and on in every single post on this site about how wonderful the arabs are to us. It actually scares me that someone can actually believe some of the things he’s posted. The facts of our history as a people show that we cannot rely on the benefocence of the nations of the world.
We all know that it’s Hashem that will protect us but we must still do our hishtadlus to protect ourselves in a realistic way. We’re not allowed to play a game of putting our lives in the hands of the arabs, knowing full well that they would murder every last one of us but then say that Hashem will protect us. Purim is coming up and we see that the Jewish people actually had to do their hishtadlus to survive & win.
The arabs (and all anti-Jewish people) hate us because we are Jewish, NOT because of zionism or anything else we do. That’s the oldest & saddest thing from the Jewish people over the centuries – the ones who blame ourselves for being hated because of something we did to bring it on.
EY MOM, of course it makes me pay more! The government has to pay for all of their expenses. Trash collection, lighting in the streets, paving roads, building parks, paying for police, running the municipal offices, the list continues. For every family that pays only 10% of their arnona property taxes, the rest of us has to pay the rest of their 90% plus our 100%!!! It’s simple mathematics & economics – exactly the subjects that the schools should be teaching in order to make us successful in earning a decent and honest living!
The problem is that people all justify to themselves why it’s OK for them to avoid paying taxes and living off of other people’s money. This is not an attack on chareidim – it’s an attack on everyone who works the system but then leaves the rest of us paying the bill. Even if you can work the system in a way that doesn’t get you arrested, it’s still wrong. Religious people are held to a higher standard than to say, “well everyone else is doing it and it’s not really illegal and the chilonim can do it too.” That’s a cop-out and not what halacha demands of us.
Amen v’amen Curiosity!
The chareidi people do get arnona tax breaks. It’s usually b/c they fall below a specific poverty income and that “entitles” them to a 90%(!!!!) discount. It’s not fair to make me pay more just b/c you didn’t earn enough. Just b/c this isn’t ear marked as a “chareidi-specific” perk doesn’t mean anything. Your answer is just that the chilonim can also take advantage of this perk!?!?! REALLY!?!?! You want to compare yourself to someone who isn’t shomer Torah & Miztvot (yet)?? You do keep the Torah & Mitzvot and are therefore required to be much more strict in doing things properly. Don’t just work the system for your benefit. You should know that’s not what it was created for but you hide behind the idea that other people do it or can do it. That’s not keeping the true halacha.