RationalRose

It has become a safe haven for 100x that many and we have no way of knowing what the alternative would have been. The gift was the simply astounding way Israel was given to us. There has been much pain but I am and will always be grateful to Hashem and those that sacrificed so that we all could have the opportunity to live here. As I said I wouldnt want to live anywhere else – and my children (who serve in the army) feel the same way. It is simply wonderful to live here and I cherish every day. today I went back to university (first day since college years) part time to learn tanach – Bar Ilan is an amazing place full of youth, life and learning with Jews of all stripes and colors and ages. Wish you felt the same way but alas …

I read these comments and to be honest I am dumbfounded. I think one could defend anti-zionist views al pi shitot of gedolim but the complete absence of reality in these comments are astounding. I live in E”Y and wouldnt live anywhere else. Though I dont mind visiting the US for simchas I only feel at home here where not everything is about the biggest car, house, nicest clothing etc. E”Y is a wonderful wonderful place like nowhere else in the world. I travel a lot and never feel comfortable wearing a kippah even in western europe. I have been to turkey many times and though I have met nice people there – I would never, never feel comfortable under muslim state – where are you guys coming from? I remember seeing in a kiosk in the airport a whole section of antisemetic literature on the protocols, nazism, etc. Get a grip here. I am never comfortable until I get back to Israel. And I know all the “yes buts” about Israel. Still it is the BEST place in the world to live, raise children, and ensure the continuance of the Jewish People, while providing a safe haven of last resort to those who havent yet made or dont plan to make (or cant make for economic reasons) the decision to live here.

People here have the shortest memories. It is terrible what is going on but guess what we lived through it (and worse) before and this too will pass. Meanwhile I live my life as normal, work, daven, learn, take kids to extracurricular activities, exercise in the park. You guys are missing out. You only go around (in this life) once.

I think the first recorded person named Shoshana is in the sefer hitzoni “Megilat Shoshana”. The sefer was included as perek 13 in Sefer Daniel in the Septuagint (obviously not in our Daniel and not found in the Dead Sea Scrolls Daniel fragments). It is an interesting story about a woman named Shoshana Bat Hilkiya wife of Yehoiakim, accused of adultery and saved by a young Daniel who finds contradictions between the testimonies of her accusers.

The sefer is not mentioned explicitly by early Chazal but seems to be what the Ramban is referring to in Devarim 21:14 as “Sefer Shoshan”. Hope this helps

So here is the score for the anti-medinah people (who beleive it was and is a mistake, not just have criticism)

Jews return to Israel en masse after 2000 years – something beyond anyones wildest dreams until it happened

Jews create a viable state that is more successful than anyone could have imagined

Jews are able to protect themselves with their own army that is the envy of many in the Western world

Jews from the darkest corners of the world finally have a refuge that will take them in – and they start coming in from places off the mainstream Jewish map for centuries

Torah and Torah-based Judaism is flourishing in a way that is beyond anyone’s wildest dreams pre or post Holocaust.

And these are just the big ticket items. Every day babies are born in Jewish hospitals with Jewish doctors, mail is delivered by Jewish postman. Jewish farmers farm the land in the most innovative ways and have returned Israel to a physical beauty that it probably never achieved. etc. etc. etc.

I think <objectively> a religious person would view these things as a gift from G-d and an unprecedented opportunity for His people – especially as it appears to be what Hashem promised so long ago. It may not be a proof for G-d but it should at least make you pretty happy if you are a believer.

But to be anti-medinah you have to REJECT all this. You have to say it is all an illusion. It is not G-d’s work but the work of evil. All the positives must be reduced to nothing and all the negatives must be magnified until the gift becomes something dark and twisted.

To be this rejectionist and bitter takes a lot of energy. You have to constantly deny and be negative. You have to be sad for each achievement and happy with each failure (not c”v the deaths of Israelis – I hope but maybe a little glee when Israel gets a black eye). You have to side with the opinions of some of the worst anti-semites (although not to the extent of N”K).

But not only this. You have no doubts that this is the Torah-true view. You are 100% certain that it is all a bad mistake and should be rolled back. You are not willing to explore other Gedolim’s opinions (even ones you otherwise find acceptable) or be influenced at all by Israeli history, achievements, and Torah growth. It is all an illusion and/or despite the state. I only hope (or wish) that this is just the public face put on for the sake of argument and that deeper down there is some feeling that maybe this is all a G-d given miracle. Not a desire to say Hallel on Yom Haatzmaut but just some positive feeling of hakarat hatov to HKB”HU.

First I think you should seek professional (Rav and or therapist) help for this with or without your son and spouse. As soliek said it sounds as if you are stressed and deserve to help yourself as well. Suggestions here are good but you need to have a tachlis conversation with someone who is experienced with helping parents and families deal with similar issues.

That said I want to try and contribute my own suggestions for your consideration. I agree with what everyone here said about unconditional love. Does your love have boundaries? Can you conceive of situations that would cause you to lose that love? If yes then I would certainly bring this up with a (frum) therapist to discuss privately. If not then your challenge is to make your son understand this. He should feel that no matter what he can always come and speak to you and you will do your best to help in the situation. This is not a simple thing but it is important.

Second is honesty. I dont agree with posters saying you should feign interest in something that doesnt interest you (e.g. rock music). Children are very good at detecting when they are being played. On the other hand I think he will increasingly respect you more for sticking to your principles. So when I said above that you would do your best to help, it does not include breaking your own guidelines – it does mean that you will listen, try not to judge, and help within halchic parameters. But no matter what, you are open to hear and will always love.

I think your discussion with your child should be along the lines of:

1. Will always love you

2. Want you to speak to me (us) about <<anything>> that is troubling you and we will always listen and try to help

3. I will never compromise my religious principles and will always be honest with you if you are doing something that i dont approve of (if asked or if I think it will help) but NEVER in a heavy handed way.

4. I have certain guidelines that you must adhere to if you are to remain in my house (and if you do I will always have my door open to you). If you choose not to adhere to these guidelines and to leave I will always be interested in where you go and what you are doing and want to stay in touch as much as possible. If leaving is the resolution it should not be done by running away but by mutual discussion as much as possible.

To your other children I would say that punishment is a tool used to keep children following parental rules. unfortunately their brother is beyond the help of punishment and that is very painful to you. Nevertheless you will always love all your children and very much want your child to return to Torah and as long as certain rules are followed this house will have to accept his presence (and show same love and kindness shown to rest of family). This does not mean in any way that this behavior is approved of.

These are very difficult and delicate discussions and I think should be had (if at all) under advisement of an outside expert.

Hope this helps and good luck!