Well done, wolf. You’ve proved midrash in are more nuanced and complex than they appear. Rambam was pretty clear about that 800 years ago. Want a cookie? 🙂

PBA: this picture is of rav shneur is in his 20s. At that point, many bochurim do have beards.

If you understand all this, why did you originally say it was shtus and belittle the idea by saying you don’t care about “Daas whatever?”

When did you ever think I was looking for validation? You’re projecting your own imaecurities onto me- all I did was try to prove Halacha can change dude.

You don’t care if people didn’t do it 100 years ago? Popa, that’s how a mesorah is broken. Solovetchik’s whole point is that Judaism was mimetic- that physical examples of tradition DO matter and are instrumental in continuing mensorahs.

You really have a problem with disrespect. Calling Solovetchik’s article “cute” is just rude. And the only reason I quoted it is because this is a definitive article on trends in orthodoxy and chareidi society. It was very well received at the time and is still relevant.

You haven’t quoted academic papers or books to bolster your claims, because none exist. I feel sorrier for you for ignoring history and being a mechutzaf.

Did the avos shake lulavim, put on tefillin, remember amalek, or take maaser?

PBA: You’re being inane. Nearly all yeshiva bochurim today have beards, and he might have even had semicha by then. You’re also irrational. There is a huge difference between Daas Moshe (objective moral truth based on Torah) and Daas yehudis (halachos, minhagim, and dinnim that are constructed based on the practices of certain societies and cultures). If you don’t think this is a chashuv difference, you shouldn’t be making any statement s about this issue. Why can’t you understand this?

Son: I’m not blindly following what everyone else did. This is rav chaim Solovetchik’s point- Judaism was a mimetic tradition. That’s what a MESORAH is- not based on didactic learning but observing what your parents did, and their parents, and your community, etc. the chazon ish overturned that by making shiurim more, thereby excluding many Jews as not yotzei even though they’d drunk a certain amount or eaten matzah for generations. Ditto for the case f eating fish on Shabbos- it was done and no questions were asked until the 1800s.

You can make all the hypothetical arguments you like, but the fact is that checking for lettuce with a light-box is a RECENT INNOVATION. So are sheitles, as evidenced by photographs of chashuveh rebbitzens not wearing them. It’s a minhag tznius.

Same with hats. There’s no Halacha, just a Chumrah. The problem is when it becomes mainstream, and people are pressured to wear one.

These are fairly simple points- that Halacha can change based on historical circumstances, that Judaism has recently become more didactic, and that there is a difference between Daas Moshe and yehudis (Daas Moshe is much more authoritative).

Duuuude: so they why are so many pictures of gedolei yisroels’ rebitzens without sheitles? I just saw a picture last week of chacham Yosef’s wife and him from the 1950s. She had no covering.

Are they really being oiver on a din?

Btw you totally misrepresented rav Broyde’s article- he says its about Daas yehudis, not Daas Moshe. It’s based on culture, not a “din” as you have it.

As did the burnings of the Talmud all throughout Europe by Christians, and the debates Jews were forced to have, the issue of moreh nevuchim, the Spanish Inquisition, getting kicked out of Spain, France, England, and Portugal, etc.. Jewish history has never been pretty or peaceful- you can’t just rewrite history and blame tzaros on the haskalah

…. But he learned kol hatorah kulah!

Neiman Marcus- needless markup.

There are different ways to read “yosheiv ohalim.” It can mean tents for shepherding and sleeping al pi seforno and others, or al pi rashi it’s a tent of Torah.

But as on the ball says, it’s hard to imagine yaakov learned the whole Torah and Gemara. What would zechiras amalek mean to him, for example? I prefer to say that intuitively yaakov was a tzadik who knew right from wrong, emes, and was able to communicate with Hashem. He was so great, he didn’t even need the hora’ah from the Torah in order to be a good person!

Torah613:

I do find that pretty interesting- a lot of people became BT’s after the six day war. People were proud to be jewish and started wearing kippot in public- something very rare beforehand.

At the same time, life became increasingly easier for chareidim in America and their population exploded. Kosher food became more available, they created their own communal centers in New York, and Americans were more tolerant.

It’s proven because everyone here is taking this seriously.

This thread is hilarious. Talmud, consider your point proven!

Great story- classic Reb Yaakov. He lived and breathed emes.

What does artscroll know about modern orthodoxy? Just like I wouldn’t read about chareidi ideology from an MO source, I wouldn’t get info from artscroll about rav Lamm or MO beliefs. For the real deal, read rav lamm’s work Torah U’Maddah. I don’t agree with all of it, but parts are very compelling.

Reubrew: As a matter of fact, I do. Your Jewish geography skills are very sharp.

I’m surprised your shul banned alcohol- that seems pretty wrong. I have no issue with alcohol at all, just the consumption of it during shul.

Those are sound assumptions.

1. The Rav is the one who customarily gives divrei Torah in a shul- that’s called kavod harav.

2. A minyan generally gives the honor of a speech to its rav or Mara d’asra, since he is knowledgeable and can address them.

3. I’m certain you are frum. You make fun of YCT. A frum shul as the one you go to wouldn’t have someone not frum speak- it makes no sense.

4. You said yourself you do it to disrespect the speaker.

These are not insane assumptions to make, be serious.

My shul has a kiddush club, and I get the concept.

There is nothing hard to understand about men that are bored in shul and go drink with their friends. You are the one with fall for disrespecting your rav, even if he said you can do it.

The whole idea of a kiddush club is immature and disrespectful. That’s why I was able to say what I said. I don’t need to know any details about your shul, we’re not learning a birkas shmuel here- all necessary info is available.

“There is no other shul”

In that case, grow up and show some respect.

If it gets people to come to shul, then I suppose it’s a good thing. But still, a kiddush club is a sad reason to go to shul.

From personal experience this is very good advice. Enough said.

I like the sarcasm but if you seriously don’t like hearing Torah from your shul’s rav, then switch shuls instead of using that as an excuse to grab a drink.

you actually never mentioned that.

And even so, you’re not being mechabed the rav, it comes off as disrespect that one would rather have a drink than hear Torah. Can’t you wait until kiddush with the tzibbur?

My shul in PA has an active kiddush club. I personally think its a terrible minhag- they miss the haftorah and Dvar Torah from the rav, just to go talk and drink while everyone else is in shul.

Deborah HaNeviah is clearly THE exception- that’s why the Gemara discusses her shoftus at length and is perplexed by it.

Pretending that women’s roles and occupations haven’t changed is to live in ignorance. Women working away from home, especially in high-powered jobs has been on the rise for 50 years. Women earn advanced degrees, and sit on the boards of fortune 500 companies. Even 60 years ago, this was unheard of; mah she’ein kein regarding the times of the gemara!!!

Because back then, women weren’t expected or allowed to hold jobs of influence or power over a community. They cared for the home and raised children- and this remained the status quo for thousands of years.

Halacha is often shaped just as much by societal norms and trends as it is by objective moral standards. Good examples are cholov yisroel, which rav moshe held wasn’t necessary because times and countries had changed. Ditto for certain laws of tznius, since they vary widely by county. In Europe it’s standard to kiss a woman on both cheeks upon meeting her- in America that’s unheard of. I could go on and on- different rabbanim had different attitudes towards relations with goyim based on their OWN relations with goyim, based on their respective cultures and societies.

All I’m saying is that Halacha was always getting rescaled and evolving based on what happened at certain times. In this case of rabbahs, we have to think about whether this is a positive change, similar to the increasing of Torah education for women in the last century, or negative, like intermarriage or eating treif by the non-frum.

Serarah would prevent women from being able to lead communities or authoritatively answer halachic questions, just as women cannot be kings or judges because the position is meant to strike fear, or at least obedience into people.

In our modern society, women have greatly expanded roles secularly, as well as in terms of Talmud Torah. Therefore, its important to ask ourselves to what extent Halacha accommodates to social change. Women today are businesswomen, artists, musicians, CEOs, scientists, and Torah scholars. How does Halacha respond to such change?