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If you want to have a good job and be financially secure these days, you need some education. Almost all good job fields such as marketing, journalism, psychology, Kiruv, science, medicine, engineering, law, etc require either high quality English language skills, proficiency in math, or knowledge of science. Teaching also requires education, for obvious reasons.
Unless you want to work at low-paying, menial jobs, you need a basic grounding in English and math. That’s the reality.
If you want to have a good job and be financially secure these days, you need some education. Many jobs such as marketing, journalism, psychology, Kiruv, science, medicine, engineering, law, etc require either high quality English language skills, proficiency in math, or knowledge of science. Teaching also requires education, for obvious reasons.
Unless you want to work at low-paying, menial jobs, you need a basic grounding in English and math. That’s the reality.
Brony- its a lot easier to quantify and put height “in order” than it is religious beliefs.
It’s all about politics. Rav Feldman was probably heavily pressured to criticize lipman by people within ner yisroel. That being said, Lipman has some very good points. Advocating absorbing chareidim into great jobs Is wonderful, reduce unemployment, and reduce dependence on the government. What’s the big fight, the Gemara and rambam clearly say Torah without derech eretz will fail
Ben: we can know what influenced chazal, because there are many historians running around with thousands of artifacts, and lots of data from different periods/areas that chazal lived in. And regarding the earth debate, it is a machlokes in a gemara, there are different opinions. But the fact is there are Amoraim who hold it wae flat.
Sam2: all I know is be teaches at YU (in Jewish studies I believe). That aside, certain dinim are objective and should be in place forever- like Shabbos, kashrus, Talmud Torah, tznius, taharas hamishpachah, etc. however, there are other areas that are more flexible. Such as being maikil on cholov yisroel, shaking a woman’s hand, leaening secular studies, etc.
These are all areas where obviously innovation has occurred within the halachic system. L’olam va’ed certainly doesn’t apply to say, cholov yisroel! So explain that to me Sam. What’s the big heker? I’m ssking this seriously, since I respect you as someone that cares about Halacha and knowing mekoros well.
Olam Haba is a gutte zach, Lernen Torah is a besser zach. If only all women could have as much hana’ah learning Torah as I do, not as a mere intellectual exercise or simply, practically ‘al m’nas la’asos’, but for the connection it gives you to klal yisroel, and the living breathing mesorah embodied through Torah. I wouldn’t want to deny that to anyone. We are only a united people because of Torah- that was said by Saadya Gaon 1100 years ago- mah kol shekein today!!
Toi- I just didn’t want to write rav after all their names so I made it one lost. No disrespect meant, and just because you disagree with a psak doesn’t mean you “don’t care” about it, or just dismiss it out of hand.
Toi- sorry but that’s just wrong. Chazal’s greatness in Torah and Halacha does not exempt them from being susceptible to making scientific mistakes, just like everyone else in the world at that time! If chazal knew all science, then why didn’t they invent telescopes or know the earth is round? You’re the amoeba. Your emunah is so weak, it has to be bolstered by insisting chazal were incredible science geniuses ahead of their times when that’s not the case.
DY: how could the Gra argue on the rambam? And rambam was a Chacham and he was niftar 800 years ago- ergo chazal.
Toi- sorry but that’s just wrong. Chazal’s greatness in Torah and Halacha does not exempt them from being susceptible to making scientific mistakes, just like everyone else in the world at that time! If chazal knew all science, then why didn’t they invent telescopes or know the earth is round? You’re the amoeba. Your emunah is so weak, it has to be bolstered by insisting chazal were incredible science geniuses ahead of their times when that’s not the case.
DY: how could the Gra argue on the rambam? And rambam was a Chacham and he was niftar 800 years ago- ergo chazal.
Ben: what are you saying? I honestly don’t understand what logical fallacy you’re referring to, or what its relevance is. Please explain, I generally think you make very good points.
A modern chassid: the Ohio story was a really incredible, tragic story. People should know when something crazy like that happens. It’s not “filthy” to report that bad things happen in the world- that’s life get used to it.
For once I agree with popa- the tune that’s taken from such a heartbreaking (yet hauntingly beautiful) song will mar the simcha of your chasunah.
Popa, could you explain a little more fully?
The pirkei avos thing was auto correct. Regarding everything else, its clear you misunderstood my point, and by calling me an apikores I assumed you were trying o hide your lack of understanding with insults, which is never okay.
The fact is, chazal were people, and certainly weren’t scientists for the most part. Therefore, its inconceivable that everything they said about science is correct. Does that make them less great? No, it just means I don’t rely on the Talmud for science or medical advice, but moral instruction and explanation of Halacha. I hope you don’t think chazal were infallible and cannot possibly be wrong about science.
Chazal’s values aren’t primitive and I never said that chas v’sholom. All I said is that CERTAIN (I have to capitalize for you people) ideals they believed were influenced by non Jewish ideals and thinkers (see rambam learning from Aristotle for a prime example). Just like chazal learned science from goyim and chochmas yevanis, so too certain ideas they held are sociologically based and stem from the ideas of whatever society they lived in. Most of Halacha isn’t like this, but here its obvious it is, because of the similarities in thought.
Everyone is influenced by their location and time, whether you like it or not. The rambam greatly respected Aristotle and wrote in Arabic. The Amoraim got all of their science ideas from the goyim- they weren’t scientists themselves obviously.
Keep your primer avos. I guess you’ll also keep the idea of a flat earth, mistaken astronomy, demons, superstition, and women learning Torah is tiflus, and use Talmudic medicine.
Crying apikorsus is just low and unintelligent in an argument. Classic move by shotim
Ben: I think chazal agreed with them. And irrespective of good or bad, they simply don’t govern modern life today anymore, perhaps that means they are wrong, I don’t know.
Not acknowledging that chazal were geniuses that lived within particular times and locations is utter ignorance.
DY: so I guess you believe the earth is flat, and the world is geocentric. Have you burned any black cats to see demons lately? Tell me how that worked out for you.
Lol popa you have a knack for distortion. I specifically capitalized that these areas are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from objective Daas Moshe and Torah mi Sinai. You should learn to read
Every good business has PR. You might as well call al the more than 600,000 PR,sAd, or marketing people in the U.S. “spin doctors,” WIY. It’s not a YCT thing
Simcha: I wouldn’t celebrate in your hypothetical scenario. Jewish sovereignty is an amazing gift, a part and parcel of the entire overall miracle of modern Israel, a reunited yerushalayim, and the incredible military victory of the six day war.
Popa: You don’t have to care what rav Shachter says. It’s rude and disrespectful to a first-rate Talmid Chacham and posek, but you don’t HAVE to. Similarly, I guess I don’t have to care what rav Moshe zt”l, elyashiv zt”l, shteinman, or kanievsky say or said.
DY: I was using chazal’s views on science as a comparison. chazal intimately knew the best scientific theories and knowledge of their dor from the goyim. However, as time progressed some of those ideas were proven wrong. That doesn’t mean chazal are liars or not to be trusted (chas v’sholom), it just means they were factually incorrect on issues of science. In no way does that make me respect them less,money were simply relying on the best astronomy, math, and earth sciences of their time.
In a similar vein, some of the information chazal used in establishing Halacha regarding women is based on goyish systems. For example, Hellenistic ideals of women and their role greatly influenced this halachic sphere. Just like science, when these ideas are abandoned or rejected, we have to rethink if those still apply today. This is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from objective halachic concepts that are straight from Moshe, and Hashem, rather than being based on goyim and their systems.
…. So you want yiddishkeit to be deeply lacking and weak, because in your world 1/2 of all frum Jews will have no by-the-book knowledge of Halacha.
Popa: I find it hilarious that you’re making excuses to prevent Jews from learning Torah. Why are you so opposed to it? If 50% of klal yisroel listened to you, and didn’t learn Torah, Yiddishkeit would be weak and deeply lacking.
Look at bava Basra 25 and pesachim 94 to see that the Amoraim believed the earth was flat, the universe was geocentric, and that the sun literally travels through the sky. They also believed that you could see demons by burning a black cat and putting its ashes in one’s eyes.
Nisht,
You were the one who said you didn’t know what it was, and asked if it was a yeshivah! And why did you bring dovbear into this, he has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion at hand.
Popa: You win. Shkoyach.
Everyone else: Once most rebbeim at YCT renounce torah mi-sinai and tell their students they can drive on shabbos I’ll agree with you.
Nisht, RCA is the rabbinical council of America, a centrist orthodox group that gives semicha and has a few thousand member rabbis. It was led by rav Yosef Dovbear Solovetchik while he was alive. Surprised you’ve never heard of it.
J2 is good. I like Pizza Time a lot too.
It’s really funny how there are no girls responding to this.
Wrong on both accounts. YCT calls themselves “open orthodox”. And MO is MO. the only people called centrists are YU.
Popa, I wouldn’t have said it in as an inflammatory or bar plugtadike way as you did. The reason is the RCA disagrees with the quasi-halachic decisions made by YCT’s administration. Of course they’re still Jewish chas vesholom to slander another Jew like that, they’re just making incorrect halachic conclusions. And the line is from a movie, A Few Good Men.
Just a member: JTS isn’t like that anymore. I said it used to be fairly observant, maybe even the MO of its time. But those days are over, and they ended when JTS started ordaining women, later gays, and said that Halacha should change to accomodate women and mechalelei Shabbos. YCT purposefully tries to be creative within the halachic framework- they actually cite mekoros and learn Gemara. They might be wrong but they at least try. Most JTS graduates are not giving advanced Gemara be’iyun shiurim. YCT people often are.
You’re not the center to the MO. To them anyone to the right of YU is right wing.
Start making goals that you want to set: learn a new language, play an instrument, write a story, paint, make a movie, etc. there’s a lot to do.
JTS does not push the boundaries of frumkeit- they simply aren’t frum. Maybe decades ago they could be considered frum but not anymore. They’re the ones that ordain women and gays, and are mechalel Shabbos befarhesia! That ain’t frum by any standard.
At least YCT seems to care about most of Halacha, there are many talmidei chachamim in their ranks, and they keep Shabbos, kosher, etc. however, in regards to women’s roles in frum life they definitely push boundaries.
Just a member: the Chida says that if a woman wants to learn, she is allowed to, and its a mitzvah to teach her. The chafetz Chaim wrote that because times had changed, women should now learn Torah and Mussar to combat the evils of assimilation and remain frum. This is the shitah of the heilige chofetz Chaim!!
Charlie, I was with right up into, you said “YCT pretty much does the same thing.” There’s a reason YCT rabbis cannot be part of the RCA. YU has never gone as far and pushed the boundaries of frumkeit as much as rabbi Avi Weiss and YCT have.
I always eat it in the context of a seudah, but I would definitely understand making a mezonos if you’re just grabbing one piece as a snack, or you’re in a hurry.
Women are part of klal yisroel, why shouldn’t they have a chelek in Talmud Torah? It’s everyone’s yerushah.
Mods edit the repeats. And popa, great movie. You’re clearly a kofer for watching movies. That’s not being centrist, just goyish.
But saying that YCT is centrist is just as absurd as saying Satmar is, or saying you are. That was my point. Who can judge what are the extremes in frumkeit, and who is really in the “center?”
I’m a guy and this happened to me as well. It was very hard for me to not interact with girls, especially since i was in an environment where this was completely tolerated. in the past few years I’ve gotten more “heimish,” as you put it and it doesn’t happen to me anymore because interactions between genders are very limited.. I think if you’re in a single-gender environment for long enough, you get used to it.
I would honestly just go with the kosher phone. Your whole Israel experience will be a lot more meaningful and fun if you’re not distracted and can focus on learning.
Thank you for bringing this to my attention. Regarding women, ans your criticism of his reading of the Gemara, I would ask you this: what would generations of Amoraim, rishonim, and many acharonim say about the beis yaakov system? I know girls that are the products of that system that are proficient in Chumash with meforshim, and basic Halacha. Is this not just as bad to you?
Exactly. Centrist is a relative term. That’s why someone from YU can call themselves centrist (YCT on their left, and Popa on their right), someone from Agudah can call themselves centrist (YU on their left and Satmar on their right), Satmar can call themselves centrist (Agudah on their left and Neturei Karta on their right), and YCT people can call themselves centrist (frei Jews on their left, YU/RCA on their right).
Orthodoxy is far too broad and complicated a system to be as neatly categorized and compartmentalized as you would like.
Also, what’s the deal with your constant digs at YCT? I disagree with their hashkafos as well- that doesn’t mean I create entire threads devoted to ridiculing their piskei Halacha, maliciously edit their Wikipedia page to make them look bad, or find every opportunity to criticize/insult them.
I personally am much more worried about rising intermarriage rates, chillul shabbos, and disregard of ALL Halacha by thousands of non observant jews versus a couple dozen YCT rabbis running small shuls that let women lead Kabbolas shabbos.
Just pick two qualities you pride yourself in having. Case in point: rational frummie. Yes, it’s a bit of an oxymoron, but faith and reason should be best friends 🙂
That’s a good question wolf. I also don’t see the value in memorizing what word is on the opposite amud. Better to know the Gemara very well, as well classic rishonim and acharonim,, rather than simply memorizing the Gemara.
May Hashem forgive your win of using JPS. (Just kidding)