Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Sorry for getting off-topic, I am sure this has never happened before in the Coffee Room.
Somewhere down the line , someone got their information from the primary source, in this case, someone with a worm’s eye view of events or, yes, the rags publishing the clips online. The more filters, the less real news and the more colored it is by bias. Anyone with a college education, and most who do not have one, know that. I’m old enough to read what I can and want, to compare it to other sources, to filter it out, and to draw my own conclusions. Surely even you have read two chareidi newspapers, both backed by gedolei olam, and wondered if the editors live on the same planet. Receiving the “news” from individuals who “know the news” doesn’t cut it these days. Any opinions formed on that basis are unworthy of being argued in a public forum.
In Israel, Bein Hazmanim is hefker veldt for the kids. There is even a slang word for wanting to see the action, the fight, the protest, the dumpster fire, the police coming, the ambulance going. It doesn’t matter as long as it’s action. It’s called l’hitchardel”. So why should it be different in Brooklyn?
Separately, pooh-pooing these video clips, finding teirutzim galore, or worst, denying they are worthy of attention because we just don’t watch or read about Jews doing naughty things, weakens any argument on the topic under discussion. Forming a legitimate opinion requires information and knowledge. The topic is “Are the frum rightfully and properly protesting against discrimination in public policy, or are they damaging the public and themselves by their actions and overstepping the boundaries of legitimate protest?”.
It appears I’m not the only one raising the question of how to behave amongst the goyim.
From an Israeli chareidi website (yes, I’m aware of the dissonance):
?מה עם האיסור להתגרות באומות העולם? זה נאמר רק על הקמת המדינהThe comment was made based on a NYP video showing a photo-journalist documenting a protest in Boro Park and suffering the consequences.
Hakatan, mo’adim l’simchah
I shudder as I realize you approved of something I wrote, maybe Moshiach is knocking at our door.
I beg to differ on your conclusion.I am no fan of deBlasio, and though I think he’s a walking disaster, since I live in EY I don’t have a right to pass judgement. That said, viewing closing shuls and schools as a gzeiras shmad and presenting it as such is a tactical and strategic error. A gzeiras shmad intends to sabotage and ultimately destroy religious observance. To claim that this is the case here is a weak, even absurd argument.
One can argue, as Syag does above, that there is discrimination owing to ignorance of living conditions, and in general, the Orthodox community is doing its part in preventing the spread of the disease. That is a fair argument, even if one disagrees with its validity. But that is not what this video portrays. The public attitude shown by a well known (?) community activist is one of blatant defiance, threats, and what I describe as a “the Orthodox community controls public policy, and we’ll get rid of you (read “goy”) soon enough” attitude.
This is contrary to what the chachomim have said for generations, and anyone who is familiar with the teshuvos , writings , and public policies of the Gedolim of yesteryear will see that this is true. I have suspected for many years that this policy has changed, and maybe deservedly so. I certainly would agree with this change, it’s no secret that I’m a Zionist . I was wondering if anyone else has noticed it.I viewed a video of a protest at the corner of 50th and 15th avenue, outside the building in which I was raised. The video threatened more protests, civil disobedience and lawsuits against the governor and mayor. Face masks were destroyed and very few were wearing them. The corona virus seems not to be a concern, nor are the official guidelines.
It seems that the Golus Jew is no longer. For centuries the Chachomim zt”l paskened to keep a low profile and not anger the goyim. We were told that we are in golus and that is our fate until the geulah shleima b”v. The Zionist State abrogated these instructions that were espoused by the gedolim through the centuries and therefore must be dismantled. But this age-old attitude is now being ignored on a grand scale. A Shvereh Golus? Nah. We won’t let those goyim push us around anymore. We have constitutional rights, voting power, and the best lawyers. We’ll show them who’s boss.
I am curious as to whether the Jewish people (it’s not much different here in Eretz Hakodesh) have made a conscious decision to forsake the centuries-old approach to the goyim, and if so, if there has been a documented about-face on the part of the Gedolim.
if you make Aliyah, do everything possible to learn Hebrew.
I validated this with a morah horaoh and it is not like sweat that the SA forbids.
Ah, it’s the little things that often make a difference. I imagine the intent was a moreh hora’ah, not morah.
When an abortion is permitted, the Tzitz Eliezer recommended it be done by a female Jew. According to his shitah, abortion by a Jewish physician is assur m’drabonon, but by a non-Jew it is assur mid’oraysa. For a female physician the d’rabonons are less severe, and so that would be the preferable method.
There is no American program, and hence no Americans. I define that as a bochur who lives in Chutz la’aretz and is spending a year or two in Israel. If one comes on Aliyah, he is an Israeli, accent and all. Everything is in Hebrew, as it should be. If a bochur can carry on a basic conversation in Hebrew, he has a chance to succeed. If not, try a different yeshiva.
Hashkafically, a talmid will be much happier if he agrees with the yeshiva’s hashkafah, but that is not a requirement. Many excellent yeshivas have talmidim who are yotzei dofen.“By us the minhag is to wear the kitel on Rosh Hashanah”
Who is “us”?
By us, the minhag is not to wear a kitel Rosh Hashanah. We wear it only on Yom Kippur.Having one string above another is not a situation of entanglement. That’s what happens when people have a poor understanding of English.
From the Oxford dictionary online: Entangle:to cause something to become caught in something such as a net or ropes”. Here, the tzitzit are not caught in anything.Separately, I’ll take Nomesorah’s wise words a bit further. Equating all d’rabonons is wrong and dangerous.
Most of the people here are engaging in wishful thinking in accordance with their political view. Considering that no one knows (and probably never will) what actually occurred, the speed of judgement here is astounding. I find it even stranger due to the almost complete lack of trust in the media that is usually expressed in this forum. Yet here almost everyone is cocksure of what happened, with advice, judgments and political predictions, all based on the media.
How so?I can corroborate NoMesorah’s words. The boys of the Brisker yeshivas are almost all bright and serious. The fact that these yeshivas specialize in Kodshim is cute, but these boys spend plenty of time learning other sedarim. Occasionally, one gets in because of money or yichus, but no system is perfect. Are they worth more on the market? What a horrible thought. What market? Never heard of such a thing…
Dear Syag,
Oh, you need not believe my true story at all. But to proclaim disbelief and give it equal weight to a first-hand account is absurd and quite indefensible.
Was it an islolated incident? I don’t know, but if you believe the attitude is unheard of, then you are not connected. I have many relatives and friends in Lakewood and I can assure you none were surprised at the story, even though to their credit they were most saddened by it. Is it the norm? Of course not. Most peole have neither that much money nor a first-class masmid son to allow for the two sides of the story.By the way, this once-bochur was also offered a young woman with off-the-charts yichus. This was also rejected as the boy’s parents were not interested in being owned and micro-managed by the meyuchas royal family.
He ended up marrying a wonderful bas yisrael with neither money nor yichus and they have been living a life of Torah and Yiras Shamayim in Israel, with love and respect for all. Even for the Zionist uncle who davens in a blue shirt sans hat. Threw that in because I knew you would understand the expression, what with your college education and all.Hello Syag
I guess when a fact doesn’t fit one’s world view, it is deemed false. How convenient.
It’s a true story and it occurred in February 2006, a minute’s ride off Route 9 in New Jersey.A mesorah for a black hat in any situation is a poor joke.
Fabricating a mesorah leads to questioning authentic mesorot.Thank you moderator for editing. I understand context. The use is unacceptable, no exceptions. Read some history books on it, maybe you’ll be convinced.
I have a nephew who learned in Brisk for a few years. When the masmid’s name was put out on the market, a wealthy man came unannounced to his home and asked to speak to the father. The gvir pulled out a checkbook and said, “I have a daughter. I want your son. Just name the amount “.
I place the blame on the wealthy who covet the kavod, and not on the boys who truly learn lishmah.
By the way, the father threw the guy out.ymribiat:
How dare you mention Mengele yimach shemo in this conversation. Think before you write, and never ever compare a comment you disagree with to Nazi behavior. In Israel you could be sued for what you wrote.
“Does anyone know of a company/organization similar to Tag in Lakewood?”
Does anyone know of a company/organization in Lakewood that is similar to TAG?
A little knowledge of English goes a long way in preventing misunderstandings.תורה מגנא ומצלא
“It makes little difference if its the uncle or the nephew, the second cousin or the wannabee, entrance to Brisk has always been considered the coveted spot.”
Please explain this sentence, I don’t understand it. To whom does it make little difference, and who covets the spot? The uncle? the second cousin?
I think your question was answered.
How did contemporary Poskim rule on the same issues that we have been dealing with these days, I.E. closing yeshivas and shuls, outdoor minyanim, Etc…Answer: They didn’t. And if they did, we don’t know about it.
I think you are overestimating the spiritual and technological reach of the gedolim you mentioned. World-wide acceptance of the Mishna Brurah and the Aruch hashulchan was attained way after this period. The Chazon Ish was a young man of 39-40 and had not yet attained global recognition. The Spanish flu was unlikely to have been addressed by these gedolim as a psak applicable to all, but rather a local recommendation that remained local, and was not necessarily recorded for posterity.
A better example may be the cholera epidemic of 1849 and the famous psak and actions of Rav Yisroel Salanter. But even that was a local psak and was not binding or meant for all of klal yisrael. The details of that episode are a subject of debate until today, and it only played out on a local level.
On that note, important public controversies that relied on mail and transportation usually played out over a period of years and not weeks or months. Today these things are instantaneous, then they were not.
Incorrect. It absolutely cheapens the concept, the expression was even put in quotation marks. The point emphasized (that’s what quotation marks are for) was that it’s not only that the RY is an anav, but that he has reached the peak of anavah, the tip of the blade of modesty, the “shpitz” itself. Sorry, that’s yeshivishe trash talk. You may talk like that often, but it makes a poor impression on others. Telling others to chill out is yeshivishly cool, but a Rebbe should choose his words carefully. And please use apostrophes.
Maybe commonsaychel isn’t so off the mark.“shpitz anava”? As in והאיש משה ענו שפיץ מכל האדם אשר על פני האדמה ?
Why take the holy concept of anava and turn it into cheap yeshivishe hock?I’m about as critical of yeshivas as can be, but I found nothing in the above description that is gaivadik. Good yeshiva, serious learning, not for beginners, good for them, even kudos. Elitist, maybe, so are all top yeshivas. I wish all the boys hatzlachah.
I did not notice the aversion to using periods at the end of sentences.
“I feel it is a major Kavod HaShem to wear a black hat during davening and Shabbos.”
Then wear it. You need not ask anyone. If it bothers anyone, it’s their problem, not yours.
I think the moderators would agree that this OP is a source that could lead to unnecessary negativity. Mods?
For the purpose of clarity:
The terms Torah Jew, Ben Torah, Real Yeshiva Bochur, True Y’rei Shamayim, Ba’al Nefesh etc… are synonymous.VHere’s comments are not 100% wrong, they are actually mostly right. Whether he has PTSD to deal with does not subtract from their accuracy. Countless mussar shmuesses in high school and onward (apologies to you Syag if you are male, but if I remember correctly you are female) emphasized the Torah Jew Uniform in abject opposition to the non-uniformed , someone who cannot possibly be a Torah Jew. Referencing my parenthetical supposition, you have likely never heard these shmuesses, but I have heard many, and all yeshiva boys I know will corroborate this endemic message. The message is very clear, and it is as I stated: “A non-uniformed boy cannot be a Torah Jew.”
It is stated simply like that, and the dogma is that simple.The only blatant inaccuracy in VHere’s comments is that he believes this approach has been around 30-40 years. I heard it close to 50 years ago. It hasn’t changed much, and history has shown that it enjoys tremendous success. That is a sad presentation.
Again parenthetically, it was no surprise that 10-15 years ago a major yeshiva photoshopped two blue shirts out of a full bes medrash picture featured in the yeshiva calendar. The photograph was used one year, and the identical photograph was reused the following year sans the two lonely light-blue shirts. Bad publicity that was fixed. The message was obvious. It is what it is. You are better off defending it than denying it.
Dear Nomesorah
Not ignoring you, just haven’t had the time to comment again on this. Hope to get to it next week.
Shabbat ShalomThe Vayoel Moshe’s interpretation of the Bnei Ephraim’s actions and their eventual defeat is just an interpretation. It is in no way proof of anything. It is important to distinguish support of a position in an argument from proof of that position.
Dear Nomesorah
I am a Zionist and an observant Jew. I don’t say frum because I know from experience that many Jews, mostly chassidishe do not regard me as frum. Kippah srugah, tzitzit in my pants, no peyos, you get it (yes beard)…No matter.
Maybe I’m missing something, but I do not detect any animosity from you in our interesting discussions here, and I’m not sure why others are calling you out. No matter. Whether you live in Israel is immaterial for this discussion. I live at the western tip of Eretz Binyamin.
I think the reason that the three oaths have merited a revival is that for almost two thousand years they were irrelevant. In the traditional understanding of them , till the Zionists showed up, they had never been put to the test, and could be ignored. The ant-zionist Rabbis , knowing shas very well, pulled them out and gave them supreme authority over the future of the Jewish people. To an objective observer, this comes as a surprise. If these oaths are so powerful, where are they battled out in the Rishonim? Why is there total silence in the sifrei halachah and pre-sifrei halachah? The Rosh, the Tur, Or Zarua, Maharam, Ra’avyah, Mechaber, Rama, where is it? The obvious answer is that it is another example among thousands of aggadic discussion, and has minimal if any weight in determining the required behavior of the Nation of Israel .
As I mentioned, I have a non-traditional but fully “frum” understanding of the three oaths. For another time…
Off-topic comment.
Dear Syag,
With due respect, yarmulkes without the apostrophe. No ill will intended.For those insisting on a full-time-long-term-learning-boy:
I wonder why a young woman would insist (all or nothing?) on a parameter that she cannot possibly verify with any reasonable degree of confidence.
Dear Nomesorah
Sorry if I wasn’t clear. Of course, the Va’Yoel Moshe’s ideology is based on the three shvuos. The Minchas Elazar was also a quite vociferous bona-fide anti-zionist, I was not aware that it was his chiddush, thanks for pointing that out.I have my own interpretation of the three shvuos which obviates the need to find reasons (only aggadah, not paskened l’halachah anywhere, the goyim didn’t keep their end, etc…) to ignore them.
Dear nomesorah
The phenomenon of writing anonymously is quite interesting and amusing, if only because it totally confounds the historians. Who wrote a specific anonymous piece? LOL.And yet, there were periods where almost all wrote anonymously, especially early kabbalisitic works from the 4th to 9th centuries after the churban. Apparently, the extreme modesty of these authors enabled them to forego the fame. Since these esoteric works were written for the elite few and were not meant to be seen by the hamon am, it’s not surprising that the author kept silent.
As far as halachic works go, there were few, and not anonymous, even though our sources are somewhat sketchy.. The ones we know about are the B’hag written in Iraq (?), the Seder Amram Gaon, and the Machzor Vitri, written by R’ Simcha of Vitri. Obviously the latter two are not anonymous.
As far as perushim of the Talmud, the major question is whether they were written by one person (Rabeinu Hananel ?) or by groups of students of a great teacher, such as Rabeinu Gershom. Most think thet Perush rabeinu Gersom was written by his students and not by him, albeit they were his teachings. As is well known, Rashi was the greatest mefaresh and was able to accomplish what no one since has been able to. Whether he himself wrote all of his perushim or guided and edited what his students wrote in his name is debatable, but his name traveled far and wide very quickly. His Perush was never anonymous, nor was that of the Rashbam . His kuntrusim were so accepted that almost no one felt the need to compete. The result was the expansion of a different form of perush, the dialectic question-answer style of the baa’lei hatosfot. This style was not new, Rashi also used it, but Rabeinu Tam and the Ri perfected it.
When you become more interested, the two major works on Rashi and Tosfos are Grossman’s חכמי אשכנז הראשונים, חכמי צרפת הראשונים and Auerbach’s groundbreaking work , בעלי התוספות. Almost all later works are based on these.
Enjoy.
I agree with the above posters. A yeshiva boy should dress like a yeshiva boy, no ifs, ands, or buts. Once that is accomplished, you can do whatever you want. Your clothes provide the ultimate cover, tartei mashma.
Without disparaging either of the two highly esteemed Rabbonim mentioned above, neither is a bona fide historical scholar. Their conclusions are not based on painstaking research of primary sources (kitvei yad, comparisons of different nuschaot, etc…) but on what previous Rabbonim have conjectured. Their writings are beautifully written for the layman but are not considered serious scholarship material. I too had been taught that Rashi wrote his Perush anonymously, but this is no more than romantic hagiographic conjecture without any historical basis.
For a serious analysis look in Grossman’s חכמי צרפת הראשונים, (see especially pages 227-230) where he quotes Lifshitz, Epstein, Zunz, Friedman, Ta-Shma, Havazelet and others. No one entertains the possibility that Rashi wrote anonymously, quite the contrary. The questions, still under debate, are how many versions of his Perush did Rashi write, what was their nature (original? emendations to previous perushim? written with or by his talmidim?) and separately, what is the nature of Rashi-like perushim (Rashi on the Rif for example), and what happened to the original Rashi Perush on masechtot which clearly were written by others and not Rashi (Rashbam in several places, Nedarim, etc…) ?
In any case, רב הנסתר על הנגלה on this riveting topic.
I know of no evidence that Rashi wrote incognito. He was already famous at age 20, and became Rav of Troyes at age 30 or so, when he established his own yeshiva there. The term “kuntrus” is used only because his perush was published in “notebook=kuntrus” form, with many copies available. This is similar to the famous “stencils” of the Brisker Rov. Say the word “stencil” in yeshivishe circles and everyone knows what is means. That does not make the work anonymous, rather it identifies the author publicly. Thus, it is also unlikely that Rashi needed to quote himself anywhere. All knew of him and his copied works.
Speculation on land ownership when the Complete Redemption arrives is a wonderful waste of time.
I am not a real estate expert. However, my house in the Shomron belongs to me. I can sell it and receive market value. Thousands have done this and it is routine. I have a 49 year land lease from the Zionist State of Israel, and it will most likely be renewed for another 49, and then for another 49, etc… But it and the land underneath are still mine.
What the OP seems to want is a shtickel piece of land for the purpose of keeping shmittah or simply owning “karka b’eretz yisrael”. If that is so, it is very commendable. It is at least a partial acknowledgement of the pasuk וירישתם אותה וישבתם בה. A nice gesture indeed, and a step in the right direction. Akin to owning a Shas but never opening it. At least if I have it, there is a chance I may one day open it.
To save you the trouble of learning what a Rov should know, I will provide you with smicha which will give you the personal satisfaction you seek. For a small fee, of course, I also need some personal satisfaction.
… this possibility …is very likely to happen. …. before Moshiach comes the world will be in darkness for 3 months.
I’m taking bets, wagers please. I give good odds.
Indeed, it is one of the three shvu’ot as Reb Eliezer pointed out. It is in Kesuvos 110b
It is the basis for the Satmar anti-zionist ideology. Also see the Tosfos there and the opinion of Rabeinu Chaim.I find it odd that someone would denigrate living in Israel because of the “mitzva” , simply because they don’t raise sheep or donkeys. Besides, any person with some Talmudic knowledge should know that Petter Hamor or Reishit Hagez is a mitzvah kiyumit and there is no obligation to own a donkey or raise sheep. If yishuv EY is indeed one of the 613 mitzvot, it is an obligation, a hovat gavra.
Nonetheless, most everyone I know who moved to Israel did so because this is Home for the Jewish people. As I mentioned above, it should be obvious to all.
“Maybe we need to think about where we can be the best that we can be using our full capabilities to fulfill the ratzon hashem and raise our children to be the best they can be too.”
Maybe, just maybe, the retzon hashem is for us to live in the land He promised us, and to raise our children to be the best they can be in the land that He promised us. Crazy idea, I know.
There are those who intuitively understand that a Jew’s place is in The Land. The Torah, starting from the beginning and continuing to the end is the story of the Jewish people striving to live in The Land. It is so obvious, that it is indeed wondrous that so many have missed it.
Reb Eliezer the Learned, not all of us are out of place.
Every person is entitled to an opinion. However, if one expects their opinion on this matter to be considered seriously, one must fulfill two conditions.
1. Live and work in the country that will have to deal with the ramifications of this opinion.
2. Read the pertinent facts and nuances in the local Hebrew press and Hebrew media, and not from translations in the American media.Has any commenter above fulfilled these conditions?
Oh hi DC, still waiting for you to deliver on your guarantee. Don’t bother answering, I’ll check in once in a while.