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DaasYochid, I’ll try to answer your recent posts in order.
Re: My charge towards you of disingenuousness:
In response to a request for a source showing that “polite society” is an offensive term, you gave one of its Wiktionary definitions – but not the one Ubiquitin was using it for.
(“Upper crust,” an exclusionary and thus potentially hurtful definition, as opposed to “people who care about politeness,” with no such implication.)
Would it not be disingenuous if, say, when asked to show that
“retarded” is not an offensive word, one were to give its definition as “Designating a parameter of an electromagnetic field which is adjusted to account for the finite speed of radiation”?
People have the same “right to be offended” by the use of “polite society” with the definition I provided as they do towards the definition of “retarded” above. (To be offended is not a matter of one’s right, in any case – it is more a question of whether one must reasonably expect people to be offended by his words.)
I stand by my charge. Perhaps we can commute the charge to facetiousness, given the ease with which it’s possible to see through this nonsense.
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Re: “Intention to offend”
DY: Your (Ubiquitin’s) words, copied and pasted: “This whole discussion is about the use of the word “retarded” with offensive intent!”
He meant the intention to use “retarded” as an insult, not an intention to offend the developmentally disabled with the use of “retarded” as an insult.
(New: He could also be taken to mean that this intention/use is offensive to the developmentally disabled.)
(My earlier words, CxP’d: He means that he never meant to accuse you of trying to hurt the feelings of the developmentally disabled with your use of “retarded” as an insult.)
Ubiquitin confirmed my explanation:
“(DY:)’What did you mean by “intend”?’
All I meant was what Randomex said.
That being said, it could alos be understood the way you seem to have understood that I am not accusing anypne of INTENDING to insult the developmentaly delayed. They are however (generally speaking) insulted by usage of the term even if the intent is not
to offend THEM.)
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Re:
Randomex, DaasYochid meant “Why can’t popa and I [who are developmentally disabled/w-e] use ‘retarded’?
My question was: “The only way you can attempt to draw a parallel between
A) black people using the N-word with each other
and
B) you and popa using “retarded” as a negative adjective for stupid things/people
is if you and popa are “legitimate” targets of “retarded,”
just as black people are “legitimate” targets of the N-word.
Is that what you mean?”
Your answer above seems to be “Yes.” Correct me if I’m wrong.
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Re: “What?”
Here’s the conversational sequence that seems to be puzzling you:
Ubiquitin: DY. I didnt mean intend to offend developmentally delayed people.
DY: What did you mean by “intend”?
Ubiquitin: rebyid, I have mentioned a couple times you are free to be offensive, if you dont care to be polite by all means use any word you feel like. I never assmued everybody wants to be polite, I am well aware that many don’t care.
DY, we arent discussing how term originated. We are discussing thow they are percieved today in 2014. In fact “retarded” originated as a polite way to replace the term “imbecile” that in no way changes the way it is percieved today.
DY: That doesn’t answer my question.
Randomex: That post was written before he saw your question.
(I saw that the post time on his post was only 3 minutes after your post with the question. He obviously had not seen the question before that response, so pointing out that he had not addressed your question was an oversight.)
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As for this “how do you define intent” business, I think it’s certainly facetious.
I came into this undecided, you know – I read all the posts and came to my conclusion.
Michael, Refael, Gavriel, Daniel, Gamliel, Nesan’el, Tzurishadoy, etc…. It’s simply not an issue.
Evtach: Pharaoh’s daughter’s name was Bisya, but the name
hasn’t been given that way for a long time (AFAIK).
The other word is “ba-teil” b’shishim, whereas this name I’ve never heard of would be Bat-eil.
Notasheep: Thanks for the laughter! (Is that story really true, though?)
RebYidd23, please pay more attention the next time you say the Birchos haShachar.
Rockout: You keep using that word. I don’t think it means what you think it means. (I’ve always wanted to say that!)
Everyone else, DNFTT.
No, I haven’t.
(I tried to get on Country Yossi once, but it turned out you had to be 18 or older.)
Should a person strive to be rather in the box, or out of the box?
Neither. The focus should be on what is necessary, while ensuring that you remain, to a certain extent, “in the box,” because 1) “L’olam y’hei dato shel adam me’urav im habrios” / “Al tifrosh min hatzibbur,” 2) of practical reasons – you don’t want to be
rejected by your society. But so long as you can get away with something, it’s okay (assuming it’s not something you shouldn’t be trying to get away with).
I, for one, cannot stand boxes of any sort. […] But maybe the desire to break free of any is in itself a box?
If you’re influenced by (read as: consume) non-Jewish media,
that may well be. They’re apparently trying to turn out an entire nation of identical anti-authoritarian individualists.
Anyway, if you’re bored, leave the CR alone and go watch Maru the cat, or some unboxing videos. Maybe you’ll learn to like boxes! But not as much as Maru 🙂
“Hello Kitty Convention in LA” ?!
Song parody, please! (But it has to be good.) Anyone up to it?
[“Atheist Convention in LA” – Journeys (Abie Rotenberg)]
Well, there’s “Hello Kitty is not a cat.”
Also this:
“Hamas Scare Clip Becomes Israel’s Summer Hit”
You live in Israel, right, Not-a-sheep?
This may be one of my pet peeves, but JFem2, you’ve been here long enough to know better than this. Bumping a thread to try and correct something it’s likely nobody remembers…
SIDI, check this out (read it carefully): http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/fun-with-thread-titles
The Goq: uh oh its been deleted oy vey. sorry for whatever i did that was improper mods i will try again another time.
SIDI: Hey, why was it deleted? I didn’t see anything wrong with it!
So. Did posts formerly appear without being previously approved by mods, unlike the current system?
Well, if it amuses you, PAA… Lay on!
Part A:
1:
No but you should have read that thread and remembered it.
2:
I don’t expect you to read all the threads from before you became a user AND I also don’t expect you to read all the current threads.
//
Had you said that the corpus of coffee room posts is too vast for you to be expected to be a baki in it’s entirety then I would have accepted that as a valid excuse.
Kindly reconcile the first statement with the last two.
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Part B:
My only point is that you should have originally said that the reason that you didn’t know of the post that I linked is that you shouldn’t be expected to know every post. When you became a user should have had nothing to do with it.
Shouldn’t you have immediately questioned whether I had indeed read every thread/post since I became a user, as I implied by giving the excuse I did for not knowing that post? (I haven’t, by the way.)
There, that should give you something to chew on 🙂
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Hey, Reb Yidd!:
Randomex, some people do [search the CR before every time they post anything]. Those people are from the same planet.
What exactly do you mean by that “planet” remark?
Someday, I think someone should collect all of popa’s most amusing
posts and publish them, along with enough context to get them, and possibly footnotes. That person’s job will not be very enviable.
There has got to be some way to get around the whole
no-contact-info thing. Of course, we’d never be able to post it, because posts need to be approved by the mods. Even this post may not go through…
Personal Info
1 – Please don’t try to pry out personal information. Any questions or comments directed towards trying to “figure out” a blogger’s identity will not be tolerated.
2 – Personal email addresses or websites will not be published. Posts that ask others to meet them at “Plonis” will not be approved. Should a blogger continuously try to pry personal information from others, he/she will be booted from YWN
There must be a loophole. Or maybe we could declare some of these rules to no longer be followed by the tzibbur? Get to work, my fellow meshuga’im!
DaMoshe, I didn’t say it couldn’t be lyrics, just that it couldn’t be Googleable!
And the only Google result for your lyric is this very page.
I’ve got some ideas, but will anybody really care if I post them?
SIDI ! Why are you calling me a traitor?! That’s not funny…
___
Annoying Aunts
> Annoying My Aunts
> Annoying Nieces
> Annoying Uncles
> Annoying Pants
a guy broke up with me after 10 dates
> a guy broke up with me before 10 dates
Living Aboard a Boat
> “I’m on a Boat”
Orthodox Jews and Psychology
> Orthodox Jews and Philosophy
> Orthodox Jews and Physiology
> Orthodox Jews and Physionomy
> Orthodox Jews and Philology
> Orthodox Jews and Philately
If you think the R word is offensive you are retarded
> If you think the N word is offensive…
I am a tailor
> I am a soldier
> I am a spy
>I am a Sheep – I like that song! (It’s by Country Yossi’s old group The Or Chodosh.)
Everyone Must Answer: Your Favorite Song
> Everyone Must Answer: Your Least Favorite Song
Is Meor changing this year?
> Is Meor changing 2 years ago?
(It would be more accurate! I hate pointless old-thread bumping…)
In Memory of the Old Timers
> No Memory of the Alzheimer’s
> No Memory of the Algemeiner [Journal]
self squashing and growth
> baby squashing and growth
Girl giving the “yes” first in shidduchim
> Girl giving the “no” first in shidduchim
(too predictable?)
World Trade Center A”H
> World Trade Center ZT”L
> World Trade Center ZY”A
> Arnold Fine A”H
goldfish has brain surgery
> molecule has microsurgery
maaleh of chatzos
>challeh of matzos
Comments on Shopping613’s Serial
> Comments on Shopping613’s Cereal
[dodges tomatoes]
Hello Kitty is not a cat?
> Hello Kitty is not a real cat?
> Hello Kitty has brain surgery
> Hello Kitty A”H
(Rule of 3…)
Gog and Magog
> Gosh and Mygosh
(Goq: “Megillas Fester”, LOL!)
(Also, Bookworm120 got the imperative thing.)
Hey, it’s aurora77, the mysterious cat enthusiast (mentioned in the old-timers thread 1 day before this thread was bumped)!
In conclusion:
I don’t think “retarded” should be used. Some people are offended by it, and no argument that they should not be will change that fact – in any case, a good such argument seems hard to come by.
(Can anyone say that halochoforbids its use? It seems doubtful. However, some of the populace certainly considers it offensive, and so, derech eretz and our mandate of kiddush haShem appear to me to be against its use (certainly where people who find it offensive can hear you).
Ubiquitin (various points):
Why when learning Kesubas can I say “Me’anes” but not the English equivalant. We a a society have arbitrary decided that in polite-yeshivish society we don’t use the English equivalent. [sic, sic, etc…]
It’s not arbitrary. The English term is a specific [X]ual reference, while the Hebrew is not. There is no “Hebrew word for rape.” The literal translation of l’anes
is “to force.” In context, the reference is obviously to rape.
A different dictionary definition of “retard” is being used when not talking about people. There is no room for offense there.
The Latin term for the color black, “niger,” is not pronounced the same way as the derogatory term used for black people. The “i” is pronounced like “eye.” Nobody would be offended at its use (unless, of course, they thought you were trying to stealthily make a negative reference to them).
“Offensive intent”: Does that mean intent to offend,
or an intent which causes offense?
Using it as an adjective is only the latter, while using it as an insult [offense at insult] or deliberately to offend a person who will hear it (knowing they find it offensive) [offense at use] is both (e.g., what popa is doing in this thread at times).
as a synonym for “idiotic.”
That is the practical effect though. Well, maybe not exactly the same… Of course, the point is not whether it is technically correct, but whether it’s right to use.
Regarding the N-word…
DaasYochid: I hear people of a certain group using an epithet all the time, and since they’re the ones using it, it’s not considered offensive. So why can’t popa and I use the “R” word?
If this is not deliberate trolling, it may be the least intelligent thing DaasYochid has ever posted. “N-word privileges” is an irrelevant discussion, unless DaasYochid meant “Why can’t popa and I [who are developmentally disabled/w-e] use ‘retarded’?” Mistoma, dos hut er nisht gemeint.
Do I really have to talk about this? (Probably not…) Take it, Wiktionary!
In its pejorative sense, it ranks among the most insulting racial epithets in the English language, with strong connotations of cultural and intellectual inferiority or deficiency.
The term is generally derogatory (racist) when used by persons not of African descent (and sometimes when used by persons of African descent), but, it is also used by some black people among themselves, positively, especially when used in the form of “n—a,” in a form of reclamation.
It is important to note that many people do not believe that “N” is able to be reclaimed, because of its fraught history and continued pejorative usage. Usage by non-blacks, however, is almost invariably considered offensive.
So some do consider it offensive even when used by black people for each other.
Are the developmentally delayed/disabled then known to use “retarded” “among themselves, positively”, that the argument could be made under any circumstances?
There’s this, too:
it is hard to understand how the term “retarded”, which been obsolete in
that context for decades, would be offensive.
Wiktionary doesn’t seem to think it’s obsolete (I don’t know about common medical
usage), though neither does it find it offensive, unless used to describe persons with
mental retardation themselves.
The deaf and the blind feel no shame for their deafness or blindness,and the stupid do not know of their stupidity, but the retarded may well feel shame at their limited cognitive abilities if “retarded” is used as an insult.One could argue that this usage of the term has made it offensive.
Also, can you picture one child calling another “deaf” or “blind” in an attempt to hurt the other’s feelings? Now, how about “retarded”? I think it’s the element of false “accusation” that may be significant here.
(Dr. Twerski’s scar-on-your-face demonstration, anyone?)
People feel a greater sense of identity with their mental capacities than their physical ones, and they are more likely to be insecure about them as well.
There is an element of truth to the other side’s claims as well – “Mongoloid” is no longer considered an acceptable term for those with Down’s Syndrome, though I doubt it saw much use as an insult. Apparently, more clinical = more politically correct, lack of negative implications or usage notwithstanding.
And then…
I had written that last paragraph without Internet access – but
Wiktionary does have it used as an insult. (I doubt any of the posters on the CR have heard it used as an insult, at any rate.)
So maybe there is very little on that side of the debate.
It seems that once a term becomes used as an insult, it must be
discarded, the preferred term eventually becoming clinical enough that it can’t be used in that fashion (“the euphemism treadmill” thread-starter Veltz Meshugener mentioned earlier).
[Also, if anyone’s interested, Down syndrome is usually referred to as Down‘s]syndrome in England.]
NotaSheep:
I would think it was offensive because if you call someone or something retarded you are equating them or it with those who are mentally handicapped.
No. In that sense, any insult is offensive. For example, if I call someone/thing “stupid,” I’m comparing them to people with little intelligence. However, using “retard” as an insult implies that there is something negative about the developmentally delayed/disabled(/whatever), a cause for people to find it offensive to use it as such.
Next BE”H: The N-word!
DaasYochid: How disingenuous of you not to include the other Wiktionary definition for “polite society”, which Ubiquitin obviously intended:
That portion of society that is especially concerned with etiquette, proper behavior, and politeness.
It is difficult to see how that could offend anyone.
DY: That post was written before he saw your question.
popa: Excellent post about legal meaning/context/common meaning.
As for the English upper classes creating the term “polite society” to put down the lower class, please provide directions to a source. Also…
murdered someone by turning on a counterfeiting machine which I didn’t realize was hooked up to an ebola vial and set it loose
That’s an oddly specific reference, popa. I don’t say that accusatorily, of course – I’m just wondering if I’m missing a cutural reference.
“catch yourself”‘s post is pretty good, but…
should not be offensive to the clinically retarded any more than the use of the term weakling is offensive to the clinically weak. (emphasis mine)
“Should not” is the operative term here. More about this later (another post).
The intended offense is not to the “real” retarded
No – that offense is unintentional.
[the offense] is to the person whose arguments I find so preposterous that I would label them (him?) so irrational as to be “retarded”.
Why “retarded” more so than other words which imply one’s highly negative opinion of one’s opponent’s intellectual capacity, whether with pathological implications or not?
affected individual may be hurt (not offended!)
Wiktionary definitions:
offend – To hurt the feelings of; to displease; to make angry; to insult.
hurt – As verb: To cause (somebody) emotional pain. / As adjective: Pained.
I think you’re drawing a non-existent distinction.
(More soon BE”H)!)
DY. I didnt mean intend to offend developmentally delayed people.
What did you mean by “intend”?
He means that he never meant to accuse you of trying to hurt the feelings of the developmentally disabled with your use of “retarded” as an insult.
(More posts coming soon BE”H!)
Why, thank you, mod! The last time I tried to do this, someone blocked it! Or have you guys also gotten fed up with it by now?
Bump™! I. WIN. This. Game! (Final thread on final page 370)
Now, no more ludicrously old thread bumping. Ever. On pain of block.
Please! Please, mods, please!
I was thinking that you could create a new account with that name, but then I realized – you can ask a mod to change your name.
Make a new post in this thread and put “for mod read only” at the top. Ask that they change your name because of the mistake. If they won’t do it, you can make a new account.
As for keeping track of your posts, you’re new here and don’t know the ropes yet. Click on (almost) any user’s name next to any of their posts, and you’ll see a page with some information about them, if they’ve chosen to put it in, and 2 lists: 1 of all the threads they’ve posted in, and another of all the threads they’ve started.
There are a few posters whose names link to something else – you just need to get a profile URL and type their name instead of the other user.
Also, if there is a space in the user’s name, clicking on their name will take you to an error page – manually replace the spaces in their name in the page URL with dashes (-) to see their profile.
Thank you for taking a Randomex Crash Course!
You can find more helpful material in the “stickied” threads at the top of the Coffee Room and in this thread (and the links there):
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/just-testing-the-various-allowed-markups
Squeak: What “death threats” written by the Rashba do you refer to?
(Also, what’s the non-far right in your estimation?)
Anyway, you didn’t get HaLeivi’s point – a gadol‘s own handwriting is referred to as “ksav kodesh”, but that does NOT imply intention to include it in the “Kisvei Kodesh” – the Tanach. Hebrew, of course, has no capital letters…
What about “???? ???? ???????” ?
LF is correct. It’s not too late to start over, “evtach” – you’ve only posted about 7 times.
How long did it take anyone else to figure out that the mod who changed the thread title was simply fulfilling the original title’s imperative (“Alter the thread titles”)?
Also, tip for anyone not in the know: You can see the original title of a thread by entering it and looking at the URL, which does not change to match the altered title.
The 2nd post in this thread was:
Shira to Shira Princess of Power
In the 4 years since then, I wonder how many have gotten that.
You’re just like everybody else, can’t you tell?
You hold the key to both realities.
Talk to your rebbi, etc., about this.
This is pretty much what everybody feels, as I figure (except those people who manage to refrain from following their yetzer just about ever).
So the question becomes, did I mean that I don’t read any threads from before I became a user, or did I mean that I cannot be expected to have read all the threads from before I became a user (due, of course, to the vastness of the CR’s 369-page corpus)?
Determining that I had read a certain thread from before my becoming a user should merely have clarified my intention.
A Jewish one – (u)Whoa-u-whuh-uh-uh-oh
(Not that I like it. On the contrary…)
EDIT: And another! – Avu michrut! Aza meirut!
(I liked this one back in the day and I’d probably still like it now. Haven’t heard it in years…)
Don’t some say that the stars themselves are intelligent beings?
SIDI: I know one of them, but the mods won’t allow me to post it (despite its being immortalized in various places on the CR…).
So don’t expect any answer, unless it’s from the Froggie him/herself.
So, if I ever create a new name to troll under, how do I return my certificate?
Patur Aval Assur: I’m sure you’ve quoted on the CR from “the great writings making up the corpus of Shas and Poskim” more than
once. Does that mean I have a right to expect that you know all of it?
These are secular, but I expect some people will know at least one of them.
1 – and aaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
2 – but ah-eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
Okay – I/ay is to be written “ai”, while A/ey is to be written “ay”. E is to be written “ee”. This should help prevent confusion. More to follow should it seem necessary and/or I think it up.
Also, anyone who can list the three references/quotes and the one(two?) decoy refs/quotes in my 1st post… has too much time on their hands.
PAA: That thread predates my membership by more than half a year.
And I didn’t use my membership for long before disappearing for a couple of months – had to do the password reset thing.
Regarding the Batman joke:
Sodium sodium sodium sodium sodium sodium sodium sodium Batman!
This is my current favourite. It comes from my daughter, who is a 17-year-old A-level science student.
-Tony Ryan, professor of physical chemistry, University of Sheffield
I’d been wondering what was up with all those links you’ve been posting, DaasYochid. But why? Why revive that thread? WHY?!
DaasYochid, you shouldn’t have done that. You ignored your orders. You may have to pay a price for that quite soon…
But if this thread is to be revived – BY MY OWN HANDS! MEIN GOT!
– then let’s do this my way (no highway option).
Rule #1 – If it’s Googleable, don’t post it.
Rule #2 – If it’s Googleable, don’t post it.
To avoid Googleability, instead of lyrics, you can attempt to
sound out the song’s melody. Do you accept this challenge?
Well, if she’s 96 (BAHara), she might think they were 9 or 6.
I wouldn’t have a problem with that. But it’s worse.
It’s incomprehensible to anyone who didn’t read this
specific thread.
As for that girl, unless she wants to be a chassidishe wife of a litvishe guy, and can find one who likes that idea, she might
be out of luck (pause – no apikorus).
I laughed. But that doesn’t make the song show up on Google.
Do you remember who sang it?
(Seriously, the only Google result for each lyric is that thread.
Maybe I should start a new one.)