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DaasYochid: I never said it is a free-for-all. When I said to act ‘as you feel comfortable”. I meant to say that you can follow a Possek that you feel comfortable with-regardless of others. We have seen that numerous times in our age. Witness the whole ‘eiruv’ discussion on these pages(where you and i had comments), with two and more opposite sides. Witness the (old) discussion about cholov yisroel- or cholov stam-as some call it. I can quote you numerous other examples.At the end of the day “puk mo amo diber” is a valid position. I think that the discussion about the checking of “toloim” is a similar situation. The ones requiring very extensive checking have not made their case conclusively, thereby leaving room for more lenient views.
nisht: please read the cRc description. Most strawberries are round and smooth and they advise water and cutting off the top,just as I have been saying on this thread.
As far as kulos and chumros and halochos, the question remains, did they eat strawberries a hundred years ago, for example? and did they use soap? My whole argument on this post was based on the fact that today, we are doing things that were never required in previous times. Hence- the “chumro-ization” of yiddishkeit.
DaasYochid: As I said, do what you feel comfortable with. Numbers do not count in these days of no Sanhedrin.
Wow- Although I respect most of the comments of the posters, few-if any- have ever been a Rabbi outside of New York (or Lakewood and Monsey) and so have very little idea how difficult it may be to follow the chumros you can follow in the New York area. It is easy to be cavalier about other people when you live in a protected environment. Actually, the best thing would have been for “writer-at heart” to say yes , so as not to shame the Rabbi and then- when invited- find some excuse why not to go.
I don’t know where this university is located but couldn’t the poster do some research on the people of the community?
DaasYochid: I am not sure about your question. “interjection” quoted the “cRc” (Chicago Bais Din) on what to do with (regular shaped) strawberries: cut off the top and rinse thoroughly. Address your question to the cRc!
DaasYochid: as an added note, my very erudite son told me that ,as far as strawberries go, there are “Piskei halocho” that go ( I quote him) :”min hakotzeh el hakotzeh”, in other words, “all over the place “! (see “interjection” in the name of the Crc). Please feel free to do whatever you feel comfortable with. May I add that my other son follows the “soap and rinse” way. (like shampoo?) But then ,he lives in Lakewood….
DaasYochid; thanks for the note about the thread! I did smile when reading “interjection”s post. This was exactly what I have been doing and have advocated on this thread! Well, at least, there are some other poskim who think in a similar way!
wondeful rosh yeshiva, wonderful mashgiach. The bochurim that I met coming out of the yeshiva, were very fine bochurim. So, go and and vidit the yeshiva, you may like the roshie yeshiva a lot.
DaasYochid; gute voch! I am only using this posting as they closed the other one long time ago. You may remember that ,in a different context, on the matter of “bedikas toloim”, you produced a page of the shulchan aruch (joreh deah) with the Pri Chodosh on one side and the “Pri Toar” on the other side. At the time, I did not know who the “Pri Toar” was.Maybe you know this, but in any case, my very erudite sons told me today that it is the “Ohr Hachaim”, famed, of course, for his pirush on Torah.
Oomis:thanks for you reply. You know what I meant!(of course)We are a generation older than most posters here and we remember simpler times!
Ben Levi: Every day, I read copies of “pashkavilin” on theyeshivaworld on many subjects-suppossedly signed by many Gedolim. I disagree with most of them and I daresay I would disagree with some of the condenmations too. If this is too brazen for you- consider me whatever you feel.
Ben Levi : I will admit that i have not read Rabbi Slifkin’s books but I have been reading his blof for manhy months and i have never- may I repeat, never- read any of the things you attribute to him. His main point (actually, virtually his only point) is that, in matters of natural sciences, the chazal did not know everything and could make mistakes. On this, “mutar aval ossur ” brought down numerous sources that this is the opinion of many Rishonim and acharonim. I truly believe that you keep on putting up smokescreens to defend your (untenable) position. As far as aggadata goes, there are numerous sources that hold that it is not binding. So, many people are pursuing a vendetta against Rabbi Slifkin- this is why some people have called the attatks on him as “political”
Ben Levi: I have no wish to insert myself into your discussion with Patur aval ossur but you do notice, don’t you ,that, at the absolute minimum, there are plenty of voices on the “other’ side, don’t you? You have singular tunnel vision but it does not reflect the truth.
Oomis: you and I live in a different world! We are dating ourselves!Today,’s generation is well meaning but cannot nderstand the outside world!
DaasYochid:because I don t for one moment it is even remotely kefirah. Why fix up one’s rational thinking?
Little froggie:thanks for your comment.I checked what I wrote and saw how you misunderstood.I meant moshe rabbeinu choosing PEOPLE carefully.You read it as choosing psak.
Little froggie: What are you talking about? Did you hear Parshat Yisro read a couple of weeks ago? No one is talking about Moshe rabbeinu himself.
DaasYochid: I am reluctant to engage in this line of discussion, but you will have to explain your quote of the Chazon ish. What do you mean “err in aggada”? I understand the halacha point- this is how we treat halacha, but aggadata? Are we now bound by every aggadata? And ,even if this is in the affirmative, why must I be bound by the Chazon Ish? there are many other acharonim who disagree.
Ben Levi! I gave you a summary of the Pirush Hamisnayos. To re-iterate- there is a context in thre discussion of the “three groups”. It is useless to translate the words verbatim-especially as the original was written in arabic- because you don’t want to see that what the Rambam is referring to has nothing to do with the natural sciences. It has to do with Maamorei chazal -same as in the context of the Tenach,like Shir Hashirim,Iyov and the like-that have a difficult meaning. The first group belieives that it is what it says (for example, believieng chas vesholom that the Almighty has a body-see the first chelek in Moreh nevochim), the second group dismisses the whole subject and laughs at it (tyhis is why they are fools) and then the third group that understands that there is a deeper meaning to chazal.
You are welcome to beleive that ever ymaamr chazal is written in code and I say that thsi does not apply to natural sciences. By the way, thsi has nothing to do whether we are bounf to aggadata.
DaasYochid: First, I do thank you for the civil tone of the discussion- regardless of your criticism. Secondly, I took out a magnifying glass this morning and very carefully looked at strawberries. I could not see anything onv the actual body of the strawberry (I just don’t beliive that they are pink, otherwise,nothing will help)..).Under the leaves and on the white part ,there were some black strands- I believe it is part of the strawberry but, for precaution’s sake, you cut the top off, which is what I do.
I don’t particularly care about the so-called “experts”. They are not in my house, checking the strawberries. In modern agriculture, the pesticides are effective (they still use pesticides, just not DDT).
You may want to follow the chumros-fine with me. BWe will have to disagree on the amount of checking needed.
DaasYochid: It is commendable that you are defending Poskim for their psak halocho. But to say that there are never any “negios” in psak is totally unrealistic. Even in Moshe rabbeinu’s time, he had to choose carefully!
Ben Levi:we are running in circles. You stick to the words of the Rambam without seeing how they are part of a much longer piece. There is a context to the long Pirush Hamishnayos. That context is what you are missing.
DaasYochid (and Nisht..): you are absolutely correct in saying that I do not accept these chumros and therefore, we are at opposite sides of the argument. This post started with the assertion of the “kula-ization’ of yiddishkeit, to which I replied that is has become a “chumro-ization” of yiddishkeit, based, by the way, on a number of different events to which no on replied. It devolved into an argument about chekcing for worms and other microbes on fruits and vegetables. So, you are welcome to follow what I consider extreme chumros. I will follow what I think are reasonable efforts. You do not have to eat my strawberries.
DaasYochid: You make my point. When buying any vegetable, it is incumbent upon the person to check for whatever foreign substance can be found. If a person is diligent,checks the vegetables and makes reasonable adjustments (I consider cutting off the top reasonable)and then sees nothing ontowards, why ssume there is anything there? Maybe the times that the mashgichim found unusual infestation was a special year? (You wanted to rely uopn the Pri Chodosh for such a chumro). An earlier poster maintained that Mexican strawberries are particularly infested. How about california ones? or New jersey ones? Your way disqualifies a whole species in a way that may not be real at all.
Ben Levi: No, I did not miss your post. And you are yourself posting what the Rambam is saying- namely, that some Pessukim in Tenach, some books of the Tenach and some divrei chazal should not be taken at face value. He did not discuss divrei chazal on natural sciences but is talking about divrei chazal that can be puzzling- same as Sifrei tenach can be puzzling (Shir Hashirm certainly comes to mind). He is drawing a comparison between these two (Tenach and chazal)and I don’t think he was talking about natural sciences in Shir Hashirim.
You keep on missing the context of this Rambam.
DaasYochid and others:you will have to tell me why this custom of washing with soap and other extreme methods (peel a strawberry?) Only originated in very recent years. No one said this in europe for many decades nor do we find this in Poskim. Neither do I remember this being required in the fifties and sixties. Has there been an extra infestation of pests in the last two decades? However, to respect your points I will check strawberries with a magnifying glass and I will oireport on my efforts.
Ben levi:mmmmm……interesting,you have very long entries to try to prove your points,yet you write a very brief non-answer to my accurate quoting of the Pirush Hamishnayos.You do not dispute my accurate quotes from the Pirush Hamishnays. I rest my case.
Sam2: I laughed at your example of “shomer negiah”. However, I would have liked to hear the context of the question and, more to the point, how did the person write his teshuvo. Was it to a baal teshuvo and was he trying to minimize any other infraction? Was he quoting “derech chibah’ or not? anyway, context is important in teshuvos.
logician: “machmirim” can also employ outlandish methods that the tsibbur does not have to follow. Example; it was known that the Brisker Rov zz’l literally “burned” his matzos, until they were scarcely edible. Yet, because he felt that he wanted to avoid even a ‘shemetz” (particle) of “chometz”, he used this quite extreme method. So, should the tsibbur follow? Or,another example. I don’t know whether you know that but some chassidim (maybe also perushim) avoid any beef because they do not know whether all the “chelev” (certain fats) have been cut out from the carcass. Hence, they avoid beef altogether. Should the tsibbur follow?
Certain chumros were accepted (for example, the hindquarters of a cow in chutz lo’oretz) and many chumros were not accepted. Nothing to do with one shittah or another.
I have no problem with anyone who washes strawberries in detergent. “gezunterheit”! But I submit this is an outlandish chumro, not required by halacha. You are welcome to it but don’t make the tsibbur abide by these chumros!
You do what is sensible and the rest, you are exempt by HKBH. Illustration: on pessach, the gemoro says that you are “bodek'(Cheeck) a hole in the wall for chometz “ad shejodo maga’as” -till the hand reaches in. Chazal did not requite you to dismantle the wall or even to use any tools to dig further. I can quote you many other examples on this. One does what the Torah requires and for the rest, “shomer Pe’soim Hashem”
Gut shabbos.
Ben Levi: You should have continued your earlier post concerning the Pirush Hamishnyaos. You quote the Rambam as far as the “third group” , yet you did not continue his words where he says the following: the “chachomims’ words are like a “chidoh” (puzzle) and have a deeper meaning .Then the Rambam quotes “chochom mikol odom” (Shlomo Hamelech) in his books of “mishlei and “Shir hashirim” and says we sould not interpret his words literally but as an example. He continues and quotes other Pessukim in Tenach (including Sefer Iyov) that have an inner meaning and because of that, chazal’s words too should not always be taken literally.
It is clear from the Rambam’s words that he is talking about the interpretaiton of sifrei Tenach, certain Pessukim and ultimately some divrei Chazal.
He is not talking about natural sciences or astronomy but about matters that puzzle us (Shir Hashirim,for ex. Sefer Iyov too)and that, in those circumstances, the inner meaning is what we should know.
If you want to believe that the gemoros that have to do with the solar system, certain animals (lice, rats,etc), medicine and such matters also are written in “sod” form ,you are welcome to it. I wrote in an earlier posting that,at times, we must accept the chazal’s words as written and deal with it accordingly.
What the Rambam writes in Pirush Hamishnayos has to do with the allegorical aspect of certain Sifrei Tenach and their own puzzling words. ( I gave an example of “Yaakov lo mes” earlier)It has been amply demonstrated by others that it does not include natural sciences.
drey kop: I have read his website and he does take issue with those who maintain that chazal cannot be wrong under any circumstances but I have not seen him mock anyone.
However, to me, the whole debate is topsy-turvy. Whether chazal knew more in scientific terms than their contemporaries is irrelevant. For the life of me, I don’t understand why chazal must know every scientific fact. What does this have to do with their holiness, their erudition and,of course, their authority in halachic matters? Just because they may not have known about the solar system does not invalidate their absolute authority in halachic matters. To assert that they knew everything, you have to go to some contorted extrapolation of their many sayings- just see what Zben levi had to concoct to make this shittah beleievable! There are plenty of rishonim who maintain otherwise. You can choose which path to follow but it surely behooves everyone to follow his own path.
Logician:you are perfectly right. I have said consistently that any individual can be “machmir” to any extent. It is the assumption that the tsibbur must also abide by these same chumros that I question. This thread started with the question of eiruvim. The real tsaddikim will be “machmir” upon themselves but “pasken” “lekuloh” for the tsibbur. The same with the present discussion,. The tsibbur should be responsible for reasonable checking. To use outlandish means should not be imposed upon the tsibbur.
DaasYochid: I thank you for the “mareh mekomos” great research!
Ben levi, I ‘ll have the pirush hamishnayos for you tomorrow iyh