rabbiofberlin

Logician: as per your topic.

Let me repeat what I said: what you (and so many of the present chareidim) consider “emunas chachomim”-a blind acceptance of every word of a Rov, even a Godol- is a modern invention. It has not been written “in myriads of seforim and eons”. Prior to the recent century, there was no such thing as infallibiity of Gedolim. Sure, you had a person you were close to and listened to his advice but to say, as you maintain, that the words of the gedolim are infallible and must be followed is not “emunas chachomim” at all. It is a modern invention.

Please show me where this is even discussed in such terms prior to the last hundred years.

As far as aggadata goes, why is aggadata binding on us? If yes, how is that differentiated from halocho? I am not sure what you mean by me not understanding the Rambam. The Rambam does not codify aggadata and specifically codifies halocho only.

I am not sure what the reference to Rabbi Slifkin means!

Logician: I thank you for your measured response. You are quite right, we cannot discuss this adequeately because I do believe that aggadata is not binding. So, if you withdraw, so be it.

You may have to show me where it says that it is binding.

As far as Rav Desslerzz’l goes you are welcome to follow his path. I am neither talmid nor follower, so we’ll part ways on that.

Lastly, Halacha absolutely has a great bearing on joining the IDF, but then the halochos everywhere are totally on my side. See Rambam hilchos melochim and mishne Sottah. I’d also be very eager to hear your halachic explanations how to justify not working but learning your whole life, which is contradicted by every Possek (and that includes the Rambam hilchos Shemitta about levi’im)

gavra at work:Your last words truly sadden me. “Societal pressure to stay in learning and out of the workforce”? Everyone? Every single person? And who fill feed them? Without rehashing the learning v. working debate, this is a very sad state of affairs if work is now considered inferior-contrary to every gemoro and halocho.

Sam2; your words are worth repeating. And although I, too, did not agree to criminalizing draft evasion, it was done purely to equate it with the law for every citizen, so as to avoid any problems in court.

And, as I showed in another post, the law is actually very advantageous to chareidim- especially for a large part of them whoe are well into their thirties and will be totally free from army service.

Moderator: thanks for the update. It seemed a lot more in recent times.

Health: Your facts are wrong. In the “milchemet hshichrur” -1948- plenty of chareidim fought in the haganah and etzel. Even after the founding of the medinah, many chareidim went to the army. Only a very few select people stayed and learned and that was the deal with ben Gurion.

That deal has now grown exponentially and is not sustainable-including the fact that the economic burden is beyond the scope of the country. That is what the new law intended to do: choose a select few (well in the thousands, mind you)and allow the others to go on living a normal life. That snesible plan is being opposed by the chareidi leadership-for spurious reasons.

mybrother: Would you have the same reaction to the Yated’s infamous articles or is your indignation selective and only directed against the peopel that you support?

AT the risk of being censored, can I ask any of those who wax so indignant about the headline: pray tell me, if the headline is not true, when was the last time the chareidim ever thanked the soldiers for protecting them? let’s assume that the headline is a blatant lie, where is the minuscule hakoras hatov to those who shed their blood on the chareidim’s behalf? Where was there a modicum a respect at any of the asifas for the Israeli soldiers?

mi sheberach ,anyone?

For some time, I have refrained from posting here, being censored too often, but one remark from gavra-at-work made me so incensed that I had to abandon my principles for once. He writes:

“a daugher stigmatized for having a working father? who will allow his son to marry such a girl?”

HAVE WE ABSOLUTELY GONE MAD? Working is a sin? working for a living- as gemoro, kesubah, rishonim and more tell us to do,has become a stigma? Has the chareidi world gone mad? Where do you think all those great learners get their money from? fathrs-in-law that work, for heaven’s sake!

If this is indeed what chareidi society in Israel has become, then it is time to wind it up.

If the moderator allows thsi comment through, let me stand up for “kevodo shel torah”. Popa- DaasYochid has more torah in his small pinky than you have in your fat head. You are truly a piece of work- insulting a talmid chochom. Disgraceful.

HaKatan: you, who so vociferously keeps on labeling many other jews as “ovdei avodah zarah” just made a statement that borders on kefirah. You write: “We are a nation based on the torah,not any land,including E”Y” That, to me, is practically kefirah. You sound exactly like the Reform jews of the nineteenth century who claimed that we are a “mosaic religion” and decalred that ‘we have no connection to the land of israel”.This is what you just wrote.

From the meraglim onwards, throught the centuries,klal Yisroel shed its blood to come back to -yes- the land of Eretz Yisroel.Now, you claim we have no connection to it! Kefirah!

Avram in MD: the obtuseness remark was not addressed to you.Sam2 characterized me so. But allow me to deal with your main remark.

The Rambam absolutely allows a war to defend oneself a milchemes mitzvah (see sefer melochim 5-1) so you are correct in your assumption. I am not sure how the crowd who espouses the sholosh shevuos would deal with this. Does that mean that they would have fought against the Germans YM”S but not against the Arab armies? I don’t know. The sad irony of their approach would be that you could fight your enemies in chutz Lo-orets (like in the megillah) but not in Eretz Yisroel. What corruption of this maamar chazal!

xerox- As far as I know, music and its accoutrements are a function of aveilus and has nothing to do with fasting. SO, Tisha be’av and shivah osor betammuz-NO. Sefira days- No,although there are different views on recorded music, tsom gedalyah- why not? taanis esther-certainly. I don’t know about asoroh beteves- off the top of my head-yes.

oomis: you are quite right. The minhag-certainly amongst the chassidic crowd- is to observe an adar yahrzeit on both adars-when there is a leap year. Obviously, if there is only one adar, then the yahrzeit -regardless whether the year of death was a leap year or not-is observed on that adar. I am not sure what happens when the death occurred on a leap year, when does the yahrzeit falls on a leap year? Do you only observe the adar when the death occured-or do you also then observe both adars?

I will research that! BTW- a similar situation exists with bar mitzvahs in adar- although,of course, there is only one bar mitzvah celebration. It can be that a boy born after another boy (say on adar sheni) has a bar mitzvah before another who was born earlier in a leap year!

HaKatan: accusing me of personal attacks is quite rich coming from someone who has consistently accused hundreds of thousands of jew (including many gedolim)of being “ovdei avodah zoroh” but I digress.

Answering your other part- the Rambam explicitly talks about Melech Hamoshaich waging war and delivering the Jewish people from the yoke of our enemies. This will not be done by planting flowers or smoking all day. It will be done by acts of war. what happened to the sholosh shevuos?

Sam2: First, no one “flippantly”‘ ignores anything. Seforim have been written about the sholosh shevuos and whether they are applicable today (see R”Zvi Hirsch Kalisher, amongst others).

As far as what is or is not halacha- we have a shulchan aruch for contemporary issues and, if you ask, we have a Rambam who deals with all halochos. Nowhere in this vast halachic output are the “sholosh shevuos’ mentioned. Even the gemoro has numerous quotations that contradict the “sholosh shevuos” (you cannot sell land to a non-jew.etc…)

In a lengthy “Igeres Teiman”, the Rambam does mention them- yet, when you look at his codification of halacha in Mishneh Torah and,even more explicitly in Pirush Hamishnoayos on Chelek, he describes what Moshiach may and will do and waging war against our oppressors is paramount. Wouldn’t that be against the sholosh shevuos? I think it is pretty conclusive from the Rambam that the shlosh shevuos were, either unapplicable or only valid for a certain time.

DaasYochid: When I say that aggadata is not binding, I do not dispute the chazal or its veracity. I do say that, unless it is codified in halacha, one is not bound by its conclusions. I fail to see where that is “kefirah”.

DaasYochid: well.,at least you admit it is a machlokes,so ,clearly HaKatan,s ravings are not universally accepted,.Phew! And I though Iwas one of these evil idol worshippers! On a serious note , the sholosh shevuos is part of aggadata, nowhere mentioned in halacha. As such ,why is it binding?

DaasYochid: must be off to mincha and I don’t want to start that debate again. i fully agree with you about the change in “metzius”. However, I have not seen anyone argue that the fruits and vegetabales are MORE infested now than before….

DaasYochid: I do not know you but I have respected you throughout the discussions. This continues but we will have to disagree and live our lives as we understand. You think it is a minimum standard , I think it is a chumro. (The cRc opinion shows that it is a valid opinion and so is my own observation).

The Pri Chodosh has his views but,obviously, not all acharonim in Europe necessarily follow his rulings.

May I reiterate that I fully endorse checking fruits and vegetables- it is the degree of checking that I question.

To all posters: You all act as if halacha and tradition started when you came of age and it did not exist beforehand. The subject of this thread was the “kula-ization’ of judaism, to which I responded that it has become the “chumra-itazation” of yiddishkeit. I brought a number of examples -most of which no on contested- and we bogged down to a conversation of how to check strawberries. My contention has been that all the newfangled ways of extrme checking never existed in europe and only became fashionable in very recent years. That was my proof of the “chumra-itazation’ of yiddishkeit. Does anyone of you dispute that?

You are entitled to do whatever you want to do and so am I and people who think like me. If I am wrong, then I will face that before the “bes din shel maaloh”. For now, I am confident that what I do is sufficient.