rabbiofberlin

kjchusid and healh: you probably never heard of Josef Trumpeldor. He was killed by Arabs in 1920 defending jewish lives. Arabs were murdering jews many years before there was talk of an independent Jewish state.

Litttle froggie: I have no idea what you are saying. My illustration was that the Torah and halacha are very circumspect when it comes to doling out “misas bais din”. Unlike Joseph who revels in having people executed.

kjchusid: So what? Does it mean that every comment by a rosh yeshiva or godol is accurate? Religious zionists clearly honor all gedolim but do not take their marching orders from all, There are plenty of other gedolim who disagreed with Rav Hutner zz’l and other anti -zionists. R’Chaim Shmulewitz zz’l called all those who fell in the 1967 war- ALL- not only frum soldiers- kedoshim. And he was certainly not a Zionist.

Joseph: Please don’t corrupt the Torah. To say that a jew lighting fires on shabbos gets executed is such corruption of halocho, as you surely know. There are a multitudes of conditions that are required for this to happen. As you surely know, a Bais Din that executes ONE person in SEVENTY YEARS is a “bais DIn katlanis”. please stop with your intemperate c omments.

As far as insecurity in israel-how do you know? You were not around when R’Jehuda Halevi got beheaded on his arrival in israel. You were not there when Jews were slaughtered,along with the Moslems, by the Crusaders. For sure, you were not there in all the centuries when there was barely a Jewish Yishuv in the whole of the land. You are spouting certitudes about times that you have no idea what was happening.

And,echoing other commenters, why do you single out Israel for Jewish insecurity? How about England in the 12th century, or Spain in the late fifteenth century or France in the 13th century, or Russia in the nineteenth century….and countless of other times and places. It is our fate that dictates what happens to us ,and not Zionism. You are blinded by your ideology and you ignore the facts.

Joseph: well, at least we have advanced a bit. I don’t think that the rest of the Israelis care very much what Agudah voters think about the Zionist process. All they care is that the any inhabitant of Eretz Yisroel carry their load and the army kefaffle is about this. I truly believe that this matter will solve itself gradually. If you want to continue debating the merits or demerits of Zionism, be my guest. As long as you allow others to continue building the land.

to health , Joseph and HaKatan: You all act as if history is static and what was in effect yesterday is in effect today. That is nonsensical. Even admitting that the Zionist arrival into Palestine at the beginning of the twentieth century-which I do not- aggravated the relation with the Arabs, it has absolutely no relevance to today. Neither does what happened in the Ottoman empire over the centuries or anywhere else for that matter. What is relevant now is today’s murderous Arab -and Moslem- regimes,from Assad, ISIS, Shiites, Iran , Taliban and others….who will murder, persecute and chase out everyone who his not of their persuasion. If- G-d forbid- Israel cease to be independent, there will be murder mayhem that will make any intifada look like baby’ play. The picture of exodus of hundreds of thousands of Arabs fleeing their own brethren would be duplicated tenfold with Jews fleeing. It would be -G-d forbid!!- another Holocaust. If you cannot understand that, there is no arguing with you.It has nothing, nothing!-to do with historical Zionism.

DaasYochid: calling the medinah an “idol” is actually preposterous. It is a lot more than “baal pe-or’. It has stupendous historical consequences and I firmly believe that it was “min hashomayim” and it was to the benefit of klal ysroel.

Joseph: I do not know the future and neither do any of the leaders that you may follow. Whether i am safer -today- outside of israel is a wrong paradigm. We may live in some danger in Eretz Yisroel but that is the fate that HKBH gave us, living in our homeland and enduring all that comes with it. Not so in Canada or elsewhere. There is no mitzvah and no special ties to Canada. Only Eretz Yiroel has those ties.

HaKatan: calling the medinah an “idol’ casts a show on your emunah. Are you telling me that the medinah was established without HKBH’ approval? That is very close to “kefirah” and apikorses.

joseph: who gave the right to all the rabbonim that you hold so dear to sacrifice millions of jews in europe by not advising them to go to then palestine?

joseph: please read my post. This was fully acknowledged. Do note other comments.

HaKatan: You and your ilk not only live in the past but purposely ignore everything that is going on in today’s world. Regardless of whether you think that the jews and the Arabs lived in such an idyllic world once pon a time, today, they are all murderous regimes and persecute everyone who is not a Moslem. And that has nothing to do with Zionism. Just ask the Yazdis, the X-ians in Iraq,the Kurds, the Bahai, .the various populations in Afghanistan,Syria, etc….and, of course, the three thousand people who got murdered on /11…All this has nothing to do with Zionism…And if ,chas vecholiloh, Israel would be in Arab hands, the jews would not have escaped that fate….

HaKatan: I, and other religious Zionists have a consistent belief: EVERYTHING, everything comes from HKBH. So, the tragedy of the Holocaust was allowed by HKBH, why we cannot fathom. But, at the same time, HKBH also allowed the establishment of the medinah and it is not-repeat,not- “maaseh soton.

You and your supporters,however, are the ones who have a shittah that borders on “kefirah”. In your view, bad things, like the Holocaust, are from HKBH. but, the medinah is “maaseh soton” Well ,in my book, that is close to denying the omnipotence o HKBH.

health: you are entitled to your fantasy world, such as that the “tsyionim” prevented Moshiach to come and did “maaase sotton”. So, the hated “tsyonim” are more powerful than-chas vecholilo-HKBH? The ‘maase soton” is succesful in building a prosperous country, and that is “maase soton”? What a “krum” and illogical logic!

and don’t feel so comfortable here in the US- that is what jews aid for a hundred and fifty years in germany until……

Joseph: your comments are ridiculous and totally false. “Tens of thousands of jews living in Turkey today”?? Do you live in the real world? There is a small amount of jews living in turkey and they have been bombed on a number of time- in their shul by the way!!! -look it up!-

and to say that one is more afraid to be a jew in israel than in turkey is so nasty, false and shows how much you rely on lies to make a point.

Health: guarantees about safety from……..France? Spain? Great Britain? the US? as if those nations who rely on these promises have fared well…. like the X-ians in lebanon -once upon a time protected by france….or how about the X-ians in Iraq..once upon a time protected by great britain…and, of course, the greatest guarantor of all…the US…well just ask the Vietnamese, the Iraquis, the Kurds…and many others…

You are espousing a fantasy that would endanger all of klal yisroel.

HaKatan: I have read “Vayoel Moshe’ and I do suscribe to anIsraeliYid’s view of the shittah.

Ash : you made the most preposterous statement yet”. “danger is defined by halocho”. HUH?? I have to consult the shulchan aruch to know that when enemies wield a knife at me or shoot at me that this is a danger? Give me break!

DaasYochid and mw13: your attitude leads to hundreds of thousands of jews going to their death without lifting a hand to defend themselves…

Ash : I am not sure how the matter of those pro-Iran “Jews” has anything to do with this. They have no effect on the actual policies but they do give an excuse to all anti-semites to declare that “Jews support the Palestinians”

I will grant you-and others- that the Har habayis question has raised violence NOW. But there will always be some reason for Arabs to commit murder. The fact that they are using Har habayis NOW should not refrain us from asserting our right to go up into Har Habayis -halocho permitting, but that is not the question.

In other words, as I wrote earlier, one must continue to assert sovereignity over every inch of Eretz Yisroel, lest we lose all of it. Losing sovereignity is important. Look at France and its no-go areas or England and its own no-go areas. Once you give up your rights, it is very difficult to gain them back.

DaasYochid: You offered the answer to your -faulty- premise: No one knows whether going up to the Har Habayis will increase on attacks on Jews. We do know, however, from bitter experience and the history that Jewish presence anywhere in israel and maybe in the world leads to attacks onJews. That we know for sure . Your premise only has the unsubstantiated quotes by some Arabs.

TO all the posters -especially mw13 , joseph and others- Fifteen years ago, after the failed Camp David talks, the most murderous terrorist attacks were unleashed by that uber-terrorist Arafat. I well remember Sbarro, the blown up buses, the heartbreaking murder of Doctor Spero and his daughter on the eve of her wedding and many more.Close to a thousand Jews were killed till the Israeli army finally took over Ramallah. There was no Har Habayis controversy then. It was just pure hatred of jews wherever they lived. Rabbi Henkin and his wife, hashem jenokom domom, were not on the Har habayis when they were murdered.They were in Eretz Ysroel. The only reason they were killed were because they were Jews. If you cannot understand that, there is no debating with you.

Daas Yovhi: sorry, but your argument is pure sophistry. Every day now, people are getting stabbed that has nothing,zip,nada,to do with the Har Habayis discussion. As many others have said, the provocation is that we, as the Jewish people,exist and that we as jews, have come back to live in our ancient homeland, the gift from the Almighty.

Apushatayid: I wrote “spoiled food ht tastes horrible”

If you even tried truly spoiled food, you wold know what bad tasting food is. -you might also have become sick-now the question arose how far os food have to taste bad to be called inedible? and the chachomim said “achilas kelev”. tha i our bench mark,BTW- leather is not food but in times of extreme need leather was eaten.

apushatyid: Of course taste is the main ingredient how to grade food. What else do you think they had two thousand years ago? Electronic microscopes? Come on, we should have a modicum of sense here. “Nossen taam” appears in a multitude of halochos so ,yes, taste is the standard that we use. The prohibition of certain foods is based exclusively on how and whether they taste in a certain way. The question of “rou’i leachilas kelev” is the lowest common denominator that we find in halocho concerning the edibility of food. Soap is not a food nor is it edible to humans and dogs. You may find individual dogs (or people for that matter)who relish it. It does not make it “rou’i leachilas kelev”.

yehudaona: Emulsifier may have been my mistake. It is “saponification” that I meant. (kudos to google for the explanation) And, indeed, if the actual subject is changed chemically, maybe it would become edible and would change its halachic definition. For now, soap is still not a food and tastes terrible.

To all those who seem to think that soap can be eaten by dogs- “ro’ui leachilas kelev”- let me categorically deny that. All soaps use an emulsifier -once upon time animal fats- and LYE. the lye makes the soap effective but also makes it absolutely impossible to eat by anyone-human or animal. Where do you think the expression “wash out your mouth with soap’ comes from? Because it is absolutely inedible.