rabbiofberlin

HaKatan:As said on many other threads, it is useless to debate this again. You have your views, I have mine. BTW- it can be argued as effectively that the Jews were murdered by the Nazis because they did NOT go to Eretz Yisroel.

Health: If you quote someone,do it accurately. Trump did NOT put any qualifier on his ban of ALL Moslems. He said “until we know what is gong on” which means never. He also asked to ban ALL Moslems, including citizens. Under intense attack, he softened his stance slightly but he is the same bigot he has always been.

An, what has all this to do with Zionism???? Actually, your position on israel is the anti-thesis of Trump; you want the Moslems to take over israel!!!

DaasYochid: see mw13.

If you don’t like my comparison to Hitler yms how about “Il Duce”, Benito Mussolini? Or Franco, the poor man’s fascist.

Trump is a classical fascist. Adulation of the “ONE” leader. The leader can do no wrong, his followers will excuse anything he does- including murder. He demonizes foreigners -see Hitler YMS-he ignores any democratic institutions….If Trump ever gets elected, he will stump all over Congress, he will ignore anyone else and vilify them-see his campaign-and his fascism will lead him to post-nazism. Be afraid, America, be very afraid…

KJ: Bar Kochba and his war happened hundreds of years before the mention of “shlosh shevuos” in Ketubot.

A quote from Hirsch from the mid-nineteenth century has no relevance to today. Besides, you don’t follow any of Hirsch’s other minhagim. You just use his words when it is convenient to you.

MDG- see Rasshi. He says exactly as you surmise-that ,for a short moment, all of the Bnai israel had Ruach hakodeh.

mammele:Argentina had a Jewish population of hundreds of thousands Jews until very recently. Very few were satmerer chassidim. Whoever was appointed to be the Satmerer rov was for the Hungarian jews who came to Argentina after the war. Very commendable, but let us not gild the lily-it was not to save the sefardim. You say “hassidim,in the hundreds”, well, the Lubavitcher have Sefardi chassidim who are in the tens of thousands.

Look, The satmerer rebbe had his shittah and ,for many jews, he has been very successful. Just look around you. However, his shittah on Israel is far from any reality .

HaKatan: You are manifestly ignorant of the Israeli law concerning the army. All chareidim above age 26 are now exempt- repeat-exempt from any army service and can go to work. So, your intemperate words about working in Israel is false.

assurnet: you are propagating many untruths. You take as a given that what my have happened to some happened to all. I am not carrying the water for the early Zionists but you paint everyone with the same brush-a false brush. And to include the Satmarer rebbe zz’l as one who saved Sefardi Jewry is a joke! At least we know that the Lubavticher rebbe zz’l reached out to sefardim since the beginning and you can see the fruit of that in France and Israel today, where Lubavitchers are mainly sefardim. How many Sefardim are Satmarer chassidim??

But, above all, as I said forever, history is not static, it is dynamic. What may have happened in 1948 does not exist today. What may have been a valid “shittah” a hundred years ago is irrelevant today.

DaasYochid: To enlighten your benign view of those who advocate the dismantling of the medinah and think, in their imagination, that it will be peaceful under Arab rule, I suggest you read what happened to the Yazidis when ISIS took over Northern Iraq. You can read about this in another Jewish website-Israeli and frum-an you will understand why I and others find the views of those anti-zionists so dangerous and continue to counter their disastrous views,

Health: I have come to the conclusion that you are a Zionist secret plant. Your arguments are so phantasmagoric that it can only be the secret weapon of the Zionists to show how ridiculous the chareidi arguments are. If the best you can do is to quote Yemen and Iran, you are truly bankrupt intellectually. There are about ten jews left in yemen, all the rest having fled . And just about every jew still living in iran wants to leave. yup- great examples!

555_Please ,at least get your facts right. Nowadays, there is a plethora of material available on the web ,so you can comment intelligently before writing. The so-called Uganda proposal was a temporary solution to the pogroms in Russia. It was debated and defeated-repeat- defeated- in the early twentieth century- well before the League of Nations even existed. So, your assertion of “nationalism” versus “zionism” is totally false. They were called Zionists because they wanted to return to Zion!

As far as your question of safety before WW1- what is its relevance to today?

american yerushalmi: There clearly is a problem of communication here.

No one-to my knowledge- is against a kollel system that rewards the few who are exceptional talmidei chacomim. As a matter of fact, this was the system for hundreds of years- a few, select metsuyonim were supported by the community or by their parents and parents in law. What many people are objecting to today is the Israeli system that gives every person coming out of yeshiva the right- not even the privilege but the right!- to sit in kollel at someone else’s expense. Forever.THAT is the reason why you see so much opposition to the present system. Not to mention that they avoid going to the army, thereby causing the resentment of their compatriots.

M: your words perfectly encapsulate what many ex-chareidim feel in light of today’s chareidi lifestyle. That was masterful.

DaasYochid: The Chazon Ish zz’l died over sixty years ago and you cannot how he would react today in view of the murderous new developments all over the Arab world which, incidentally, have nothing, absolutely nothing to do with the medinah. That goes for all those gedolim of yesteryear who did not face today’s actuality.

edited out of respect (I refer to the wording)

health: you show your irrationality every time you comment. Whether it was better ten years ago or hundred years ago is irrelevant. Today- Hajom_ it would be mass suicide to allow the Arabs to control eretz yisroel.

I know it is useless to comment on the deranged comments of HaKatan, Joseph and Health and some others but one last time: you all live in a time warp. Whatever happened a hundred years ago with the Arabs has no relationship to today. Today, if, chas vecholilo, the Arabs take over Israel, every jew, men,women and children would be either slaughtered or kept as slaves. All you have to do is look at the daily news. It is worse than a pipe dream to suggest living with the Arabs now, it is a crime. Ad all of the comments of gedolim of a hundred years ago is totally irrelevant. So, go sell your deranged dreams to the Neturei Karta.

Softwords: I appreciated your comments, even though I think you are wrong. AT least, your words echo “divrei chachomim benachas nishmoim”. Unfortunately, you are wrong in most of your comments. You try to justify kollelim. The problem is not a few kollels , something that has been with us forever. The problem- and the tragedy- is that,in Israel, every chareidi is encouraged to go to kollel, regardless of his merits. To add insult to injury, they rely on the klal to support them. That is an impossible situation as you readily know. And, of course, you minimize the duty of working and supporting one’s family. That is the halacha and I cannot see how anyone in the last century can justify ignoring a slew of halochos.

As far as the medinah- virtually all chareidi gedolim vote, receive financial benefits from the medinah,are protected by the army and the police……etc. I don’t see how you can say that they are against the medinah. That is ludicrous. The arguments you espouse have long been resolved, with the Holocaust and the establishment of the medinah. It may have historical curiosity, not reality.

DaasYochid: Why should there be such a reaction? The dati leumi crowd continues to build eretz ysroel, expand yeshivot, serve in the army and go about their way building families that are faithful to their philosophy. They have no fear of any foreign import, which is what Reform is, and just shrug their shoulders as they continue the building of our ancestral home.

To all those pointing to the “three oaths”: See gemoro Sottah 10A, top of the daf, which fully supports Avi K in what he wrote that, when one side does not respect the “shevuoh”, the “shevuoh-oath” is cancelled. Sam2 also pointed to it and I have just shown the source of this. Gemoro and rashi concur.

So, as the nations of the world have dealt with us in the most terrible way, the “sholosh shevuos”- even if accepted- are cancelled and should not be quoted as opposing the establishment of medinas yisroel.

HaKatan: “#4 is particularly silly”. Why? It makes absolute sense and the gemoro agrees. “Shevuos’ are not one -sided. Just because your side feverishly looks for a reason to condemn the “heretics’ doesn’t make it correct or even plausible.

health: a few weeks in the span of close to seventy years is, by definition,sporadic.

Health: do you know what sporadic means? check out its meaning and you will see that it applies to today also. And I have no idea what the pullout from lebanon and gaza have to do with the need for a jewish homeland, independent and unafraid.

DaasYochid: because no one else-save Herzl- envisioned it. In that, he was a visionary.

Health: do you sometimes read what you write? Herbert Samuel is long gone and israel independent and prosperous. Would that not be a sign that HKBH wants the “zionist entity” to succeed?

DaasYochid: From what you write, you proved my point. The words you quote are from a diary and it clearly shows that at the actual Congress, no demand for a State was made. Read the actual manifesto. This might have been a distant wish but the Congress and the world did not anticipate an independent state. How could they? “Palestine” was still part of the Ottoman empire and WW1 was still twenty years away. The dissolution of the three empires- ottoman, austria-hungary and russian- did change the face of Europe and the earth. BUt no one could have foreseen this at that time, Arab hostility had little to do with the idea of Zionism itself an much more to do with the influx of Jews fleeing pogroms and having been imbued -by Rabbonim and gedolim!-of the mitzvah of alyah and the re-building of ancient Israel.

As long as jews were servile and did not consist of a threat to them, they were allowed to live in Palestine.The dynamics of the late nineteenth century and early twentieth century, when millions of Jews left Russia for safer havens, changed this. Even without the idea of political Zionism, there would have been a major backlash against the arrival of tens of thousands of jews in then “Palestine”. Zionism per se, had little to do with this. Its idea became the vessel of all the pent-up needs and feelings of Jews in Europe who were persecuted and harassed throughout Russia. And, ironically, it was mainly the religious Rabbonim in Russia who encouraged the alyah movement and the first mass alyah was in 1881 -named bilu,meaning Bais Yaakov Lechu Venelchu- It was only the beginning. The tragedy of that time was that secular Jews stole our idea and it made it theirs. We have been trying even since to bring it back to its rightful source. “lehachzir atoroh lejoshono”