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hilarious….any one to the left of zalman is an apikorus/non ehrlich. Great ahavas yisroel !!
It is absolutely amazing how closed minded and ignorant people can be. Now, I actually learned the “vajoel Moshe” and I actually read reb Elchonon’s words in “kobetz Shiurim” and I actually read many of the Agudah Sages.And I also read Rav Kook and Rav zvi Hirch Kalisher and Rav teichtal and the seridei Eish,amongst many others. Zalman and Matisjohu can only spout insults and all they can do is to be “mevazeh” gedolim. They have not read anything besides their Toras’Vajoel Moshe’.Zalman is totally wrong in saying that virtually everyone agreed with the Satmarer Rov. Actually, almost NO ONE agreed with him. Not the Gerrer rebbe, the imrei emess, not the vishnitzer rebbe, the imrei chaim, not the Ponevitzer rov, not Reb Chaim Shmulewitz and virtually al lthe gedolim of the Agudah, NO ONE agreed with him as far as the medinah goes. R”Itshe meir levin ,the Bais Ysorel’s brother-in-law signed the declaration of Independence. It is totally ridiculous to assert the truth of any of his comments. Thye are flatly a lie.AndIi have never seen any so-called religious Zionist Rov vilifying any chareidi Rov. You, of course, feel free to spout rechilus and hotzoas shem rah. How “frum”.Noe of you two know anything about the real issues underlying the debate. You issue declarations that you cannot suport, like saying (Matisjohu) “a woman/girl is not allowed to learn gemoro”. OK= PROVE IT! show me the source for that (false) assumption.
i have carefully re-read Matisjohu’s and zalman’s comments about zionism, alyah, the mizrachi, rav kook, etc.I rarely insult people so i shall only ask one very simple question? DO YOU HAVE ANY PROOF FOR WHAT YOU ARE SAYING???
I CHALLENGE you to bring any REALl sources for your drivel, except, of course, your toras “vajoel moshe”.
Not only are you showing your ignorance but you are insulting tannaim,ammoroim and rishonim when you write that “alyah’ is a “secular nationalistic idea’ SHAME ON YOU !!!! tannaim, amoiroim ,rishonim ad achronim did all they could to go live in israel and make ‘alyah” !!! What ignoble and excerable comments to cast all these gedolim in this light!
SHAME ON YOU to call gedolim vechachomim “apikorsim”.And for yo u to call the “medianh’ the great “avoidoh zoroh” is TRULY motzi shem rah on hundreds of thousands of ehrliche yidden who have done more for Klal Yisroel in their little figner than you in your whole miserable life!
Not only can’t you provide any real sources for the garbage (your words) you spout but then you put words in Rav Hutner’s mouth which have nothing to do with the rebbe zz’l. He NEVER said this about lubavitch in thsat context and I am a talmid of his! Bring your proof before you quote a godol!
You are both despicable examples of a “zoken amareh”, although you are both too young to know what that means.
This may be a so-called “chareidi’ website, but REAL SHEKER- REAL LIES should not be allowed to be printed without being challenged !
A few additonal comments on earlier postings…To mariner- I admire yo ustadning up for reb joiseh ber but i must tell yo u, you are dead wrong about moshiach and lubavitch. There a slew of maaorei chazal, zoahr, and afterwards who conclusively tell us that there will be a slow awakening of the “jemosa hamoshiach”. You don’t belive me? Go and learn the sefer of Rav Zvi Hirsch Kalisher zz’l (written, by the way, in the 1850’s!) “Derishat Zion’ and you will see how he brings down hundreds of mmamorei chaal who absolutely mirror the derech of the religious zionists (the “failed’ mizrachi”)e wrote this fifty years before zionism even existed,. But for zalman and matisjohu, he is nothing. All that counts is Toras “vajoel Moshe”.
As far as asking why not the Maggid ,why not other gedolim, “ein hochi nami”. You can ask this time and time again. Maybe it is more current today because, for the first time since bar Kochba (as you know, he was called Moshiach by Rabbi Akiva) we have Eretz Yisroel back in our own hands, Boruch hashem. Hence, more emphasis on Moshiach today. And, please, you are too intelligent to even dare compare for one milli-second Lubavitch with -chas vecholilo- x-anity.
As far as the rantings of zalman and matisjohu against the zionists, against the medianah,etc…that’s OK, stay here in the US and get consumed with jealousy and envy at the success of the “treifene medianh”. Hakodesh boruch knew what He was doing and ,of course, you have the bechira to be stupid.
well, I am not sure what I should add to all of the above comments. Matisjohu,who is actually totally ignorant of halacha, and zalman ,who thinks that vajoel moshe is moshe rabbeinu’s torah, are so far off the real yiddishe derech that we should leave them at their folly. I’ll just comment on a couple of stupid comments by them.
“There were no gedolim in mizrachi”. mmm. you never heard of the netziv, I imagine. or Rav Kook (as mentioned) or Reb Meshulam Rath zz’l -who paskened to say hallel on jom haaztmaut- or Rav zevin zz’l, who called jom haatsmaut a jom tov- or Rav Zvi Hirsch kalisher zz’l. I am not even mentioning Rav goren and many others today. All this talk about gedolim has everything to do with politics anf nothing with gadlus.
As far as the controversy on Moshiach. All of the postings ignore the simple gemoro, upon which the Rambam is founded: ” ein bein oilam hazeh le’jemos hamoshiach elu shibbut malchios bilvad”. (gemoro sanhedrin and according to shmuel)
It is crystal clear from the gemoro and the rambam that moshiach is a lving person and nothing- NOTHING- will be different in jemos hamoshiach except the “yoke of the oppressors” -exactly as it is today!
SO, why can’t moshiach die? if ‘jemos hamoshiach’ continues to be a natural world, why indeed can’t moshaich die, the midrash of dan nothwithstanding.There are other opposing midrashim,including the gemoro itself.
I am not saying anything about the person of Moshaich or about the rebbe zz’l, but all of you go directly against the gemoro and the rambam. But I imagine you don’t care, because your torah is”vajoel moshe” (which I did learn ,incidentally)
Let me throw a live grenade in this whole deabte about the “evil zionists’ the neturey karta.etc…WHy did Hashem Ysiborach punish primarily the chareidim? Most of the Polishe yidden were frum ,certainly many of the litvishe ydden were of chareidi persusasion and especially the hungarian jews were extreme chareidim. Hakodesh Buroch huh punished these communities the most. (remember, the hated German “reform’ jews escaped with their lives-as most were expelled, not killed) Why???? Just ask yourself that question and then read Rav Teichtal zz’ l sefer ‘ Eim habonim semeichah”
Matisjohus words are the worst and the most ignorant. One example- he flatly denies the right to women/girls to learn gemoro. OK, can you give the mekor for this???? We’ll see if you know anything beyind “Vajoel moshe”
ABSOLUTELY WONDERFUL !!!! THE STORY ABOUT THE TORONTO- BOUND FAMILY RESTORED MY FAITH IN OUR HOLY PEOPLE , REGARDLESS OF THE MACHANEH !! INDEED, IF WE WOULD ALL HAVE THE SAME ATTITUDE, MOSHIACH WOULD ALREADY BE IN YERUSHALAIM !! LET US TRY TO EMULATE THE ABOVE EXAMPLES! gut shabbos
Jent 1150, do you know even know what you are talkig about? It is absolutely clear from Parshat Mishpatim and the mishnah in taharos(i think) that it is never murder until the bay is born. That is AN ABSOLUTE FACT. So, the fetus is not considered a person until it shows its head otuside the womb. (check your mishnayos and halacha).Now, this is not to say that abortion,at any time, is a simple matter. It is not. But it can never be called murder. Contraception is allowed al pi halacha.Check your Parshyot and your gemoros. They used “kos shel ikrin” quite rotuinely and ,of course, check the gemoro in jevomos, “sholsh noshim meshamshos bemoch”. There is a nmachlokes if it means that they CAN or they SHOULD. jent 1150, in the past, you have shown that you know your sources. Go and check them and I’d love to see your report AFTER you have seen these sources. Gut shabbos.
well, my post here dovetails with the one I started abut shloimele zz’l (carlebach).I called him a zaddik because he was mekarev EVERYONE,even the shaygatz who smoked pot-but- today-is a rosh yeshiva somewhere. His derech of ahavas yisroel was the right one and the elitism shown by some bnai yeshiva is disgusting. Eli hakohen also thought that chanah was drunk and yet, she ended up being the mother of shmuel hanovi. Who are you, critics, to decide who dresses “zniusdik” and who is righteous in the Almighty’s eyes? UJM, I hope that your children never give you agmas nefesh . I am not sure you deserve to have a serene life afer your ignoble comments.
All of my “baalei machlokes”, I think, are missing the point. Rav Belsky shelita wrote an article, very critical of chabad. Regardless of its intrisic merits, Rabbi Silverberg has the absolute right to question Rav Belsky. He has his own rebbes to follow and it is surely within his rights to follow whomever he wants. Hence, all the “sturm und drang” (look it up) about his attack on Rav Beslky is meaningless. He has his own rebbes on this. Rav Belsky has the right to question Chabad too, although I do believe he is wrong. This brought us to the debate at hand.Can you, EVER, question a Godol or a prominent Rov or Rosh yeshiva? On this, I have said to all the other “posters’ that there is NOT such a concept of ‘daas torah’ ,that you cannot question anything a Rov or Godol says.
Matisjohu, “I can only try ” and all the others disagree. My challenge to them is twofold. First, where do you find, in the past, that people could not question a Rov or Godol on “milei de-alma” ,matters of general interest, and second, possibly more direct, WHICH godol are you following? The majority of “posters’ are following the litvishe roshei yeshiva. I follow Rav Kook. Does that make me an apikoros? Say I follow the Lubavitcher rebbe, does that make me a meshichist? My point is that everyone is entitled to follow his own chosen rebbe,without being accsued of thre sins of Israel.
As far as all the examples of the past. No one was there at the time of the bayis to know how the debate unfolded between rav Jochana ben zakkai and the others. History proved Rabbi Jochanan ben zakkai correct. Does that make rabbi Akiva, who supported the Bar Kochva REVOLT AGAINST the Romans,unworhty? not at all. Every tannah had his own opinion and only the results were the proof of the correctness of the shittah. Remember, the CHashmonoim also revolted- not unlike what the biryionim wanted- and they were succesfull. Does that make them biryonim? Not at all.
It is within the purview of every Godol and also of each individual jew to act according to his understanding in life. Halacha is different, as I noted.
Lastly, the attempt to portray Cahbad as another x-ian sect is despicable and ignoble. It merits the full condmenation of every jew.
As noted, paul CHANGED the whole of the mesorah. He abolsihed milah, moadim,etc..To even hint at a similar way is truly “motzi shem ra”. The discussion about moshiach is complicated and, although I do not believe that the rebbe was moshiach, we still do not know exactly how moshiach will enter our history. For all I know, Herzl was moshiach. After all, he gave Eretz ysroel back to the Yidden! (I am going to relish the comments on this!!!)
Matisjohu has an enormous posting and it is too late to answer every item one by one.
Just one very simple question : why do you always think we have to follow YOUR gedolim?
To me, Rav Kook was a giant, a Godol and his shittah is absolutely correct. Do you dney me they right to believe this? To me, the Lubavircher rebbe was the greatest Jew in his generation. Do you deny me the right to believe in what he said and actually paskened? Do you really believe that “the Gedolim guided us” during WW II? And,lastlyfor now, Rav Hutner zz’l was niftar in 1980. I don’t believe, for one moment, that there was any kind of “meshichistus” (your words) at that time. So, this quote is obviously either false or has nothing to do with chabad at this time. I’ll try to answer his long message at a later date.
TO, I can only try.
Actually, i had a wonderfu ltiem in all my yeshivos, which are quite varied, incidentally. This does not change my view of the roshei yeshivo trying to contorl their talmidim, which is OK !!!. It is just that I do not have to follow blidnly. SO, if Rav Beslky shelita has a view on Chabad, I do not have to agree with him. And, incidentally, all chassidim do believe in the infalliblity of THEIR rebbe, includng chabad. This does not mean that other chasidim must feel the same way.
As far as the second issue (not wanying to admit their mistakes), i will not name names or even mention shittos, but do you beleive that the gedolim of pre-war were right in their refusal to tell people not to go to Eretz ysroel? Do you think that the gedolim of today will admit that thier opposition to a “medinah’ was a mistake? I know you will say that they were right and all of us who are Zionists are wrong. Thas Ok too, but the facts belie this refusal to recognize a new era. Thank you for your offer, maybe i will take it up later.
Well, this should be the last comment on this matter from me. What joseph wrote is so incredibly silly that I will follow my earlier promise first, which si to read up on this “parsha”.
Even Kastner’s detractors never sadi that eh had the power to save all Hungarian Jewry.This is indeed a atupid stattement. And qhat you write that “Rabbomin manaed to buy seats from kastner”. Apart from the fact that I greatly doubt this is true, this does not abslove the ones who left their kehillos. BUT I will not charge anyone with this “chet”. In times of danger, people do all kind of things to save themselves, including dealing with the devil himself. For that, no one should be vilified.
When one does not have an answer to a reasonable comment, it is always easy to insult and accuse the questioner of being somethin ignoble. This is what we have come to with Geshmaknestei’s comment. He does not have an answer to my queries, so he makes me out to be Moses Mendellsohn. Nice try but not enough, young man. I m not sure what you man by saying that “the Torah does not require any particular beleifs and one is free to decide on ones’s own”. I have said, quite consistently that , in matters of PSAK and halacha, you must follow your rebbe. This is incontrovertible. In other matters, which are not ruled by halacha, yes, you can follow your own “sechel”. If you think otherwise, then, yes, you have succumbed to the same mindless belief in the infalliblity of gedolim that is prevalent today. Where does it say that gedolim are smarter or know more of the world because of their zidkus or knowledge? This,indeed, is an invention of modern times. And, pray tell me,which gedolim are you championing? I bet it is not Rav kook, or Rav zvi Hirsch kalisher or Rav shlomo Goren,even the gerrer rebbes and vishnitzer rebbes, who had quite a different view of Eretz yisorel than the Gedolim you follow.
MY point is consistent. In matters of halacha, you must abide by your rebbe’s rules. In other matters , I will not leave my sechel at the door.
And, Pashute Yid, I do rememeber that psak on aveilus. Shame on the Psak givers.
well, joseph, I wish you would not have this obsessive mental preoccupation with Kastner. You said some other time that you are still young, so I will give you the benefit of not having acquired binah yet. It takes time ,my friend.
Your comments are so asinine that they don’t deserve an answer. Eichmann was the malach hamoves and send coutless of jews to their death. You think the same about Ksstner, I am sure and this is where your youth and ignorance show. YOU have no idea what happened during the war. YOU have no clue how it was, being hunted by the Nazis jemach shemom. YOu can’t even fathom what jews of all ilk did to save their lives. SO, spare me the sanctimoniuosness about Kastner. The facts are that, due to him, there are people today-chareidim by the way- who are alive. Due to kastner, Satmar is a big chassidus. Due to Ksstner, I know the grandchildren of great Poskim who are alive today and have large families.
MY point is that I am not JUDGMENTAL. I will not judge Kastner because I was not in his shoes and did not live in his time. You, on the other hand, lump him together with the “evil Zionists’ in one big pot. I truly hope that you NEVER ,ever go through the same times as our parents did in the War,because you do NOT know how yo uwould react!
And, pray tell me, why did the satmarer Rov accept to be saved? There were many rabbnimm who went to their death with their kehillos. BUT I would NEVER have asked this question because I wil never judge the Satmarer rebbe on THIS matter.
SO,PLEEZE…spare sus your continuing insults to hundreds of thousands of good jews who are Zionists. As I said in another posting, history will tell and right now, I am betting my house on the continuing survival and prosperity on what you have called “the Zionist entity”.
to ‘I can only try”:
to a) and b) ABSOLUTELY. Yup, I believe that today’s roshei yeshiva want to stifle debate.I have no problems with that, because this is how they want to control their followers, just that I don’t have to follow them on this. As far as b) Truly, I prefer not to comment on that, because of my resepct to many Gedolim but in essence, yes, I do beleive this is the case.
As far as d) goes, Go and look up some of the arguments from the gro and the Chassidim. They did tell him that he was wrong. Not from am poshete bala habayis like me, but the talmidei habaal shem worked tirelessly to show that the Gro was wrong in his attitude to chassidim.
On 6) again, you are. memechilas kevod toroshcho, missing thepoint. NO baal habayis, or even Rov, should be holek on R”Mshe’s PSAK (althought many did).It is his opinion on other matters that we are discussing. R’Moshe, thank G-d, was never political, but imagine he has an opinion about Eretz Yisroel that you do not share (say whether to go to the army). Are you saying that I cannot have my own opinion on this?
h) I don’t know whether the Litivishe gedolim wold put chassidim in cherem today, they obviously have not.My point is that there were times that the oppostion to chassidus was virulent. Today, you have the same attitude to chabad. History will show the truth, but ,for now, Rav Beslky’s comments on chabad are a parrallel to the cherem of the gro.
g)I am happy to hear you went to a yeshiva that respected Rav Kook and R’Joshe Ber. This was not always the case.
f) The machlokes was VERY virulent and Rav shach zz’l once expressed this view, about not being “meshadechc’ with Chabad. I’ll do the relevant research and get you the exact quotation.
i)Again, interpretations on halachic matters are one thing, personal opinions are another. As I said, if Rav belsky shelita “paskens” that you cannot enter 770, then this is a halachic interpretation. If he thinks you should not go there, it is an opinion,which you have the discretion of accepting or not.
UJM. the concept of “daas torah’ to which you adhere is a modern invention. Before this century, the Poskim had the full authority to give Psak and people had to follow. However, in matters of general interest, people could listen to their vsrious rabbonim and them make up their own minds.
Let me give you an example of yesteryear.In Napoleon’s times, there was a bg machlokes between the Baal hatanya and other Russian gedolim whetehr to embrace napoleons’ regime when he set out to conquer Russia. The baal hatanya was against it becuase he was worried about the influence of emancipation on his chassidm. Ohter rebbes disagreed becuase they felt that, to be liberated from the czar, was worth the risk. Well, Napoleon lost but th question is, you could have espousud the Baal hatanya’s view or his opponents. Either way, you were a good jew. There was no compulsion to one side or another.
Today, if you follow Rav kook’s shittah, you are expelled out of the machaneh! if you followed Rav Joshe ber, today, you are almost a shaigatz! And if you question anything a rosh yeshiva says, you are an apikoros! THAT was never the case previously. I can give yo uother historical examples.
so, UJM, my view is that in halacha you MUST accept the Psak of your ROV. In matters of general interest, you still have a brain and if you feel that the godol does not ref;ect what you feel, you are not an apikorus if you question his view and do differently.
to will hill and joseph,
Thnaks for the quote. As I said, I will try to read the (very)voluminous material on this whole sorry affair. Till then, i stick to my point.
BTW, even assuming kastner testified on behalf of this nazi becher, how does this belittle his saving 1700 Jews? And to joseph, you can say whatever you want about “at the direct expense of 600,000 Jews”, this is obviously a ridiculous remark. Do me a favor and google “Kastner” and youn will see that there were many people who knew about Eichmann’s jm”s plans and that Kastner (according to google) DID, in fact give tihs inofrmation to many others. As I said, this is a murjy part pf our history snd to me, the fasct that 1700 Jews were saved trumps a lot of other “avieros”
dear Matisjohu,
you wrote (check your posting): “you sound like an apikores”.I am ahppy that you are taking back your accusation.
As far as the actual matter at hand. You go on and on, venting your anger yet, you do not bring ONE ‘rayoh” to your concept of “emunas chachomim”. I, for one, will be happy to provide you with plenty of sources on this matter. The very simple fact is ,that, until very recently, there was no such thing as ‘infalliblity” by our gedolim. In halacha, you obviouxly had to follow your Posek’s directives but in “milei de-alma” you did not have to follow what they said. You may ask their advice, you may ask their brocho but it is incontrovertible that you do not have to take their OPINION as daas torah. Dear matisjohu, you are welcome to continue doing this but others, like chabad or me,do not have to follow you and others into oblivion.
to “I can only try”
To answer you briefly, because we will certainly disagree. If I go to someone to be shoiel etza, then I have put myself VOLUNTARILY under this person’s authority. It is fine ,then, to accept his advice and deem it to come with “syata dishmaya”. This was absolutely not the case with the matter at hand. Rav Belsky shelita wrote an article giving his opinion on Chabad. this is not shoiel eitzha ,nor do I, or others, have to deem it as having been written “besyata deshmaya”. As far as “zilzul chachomim”, there are many,many talmidei chachomim in Chabad too. Don’t they deserve the same respect?
I trust you were NOT around in the fifties and eaerly sixties when the Piskei halacha of R,Moshe came out. Check with your elders about some of the early reactions to some of his controversial Piskei halacha.
As far as numbers 7,8,9 and 10.
Rav Shach zz’l (to name him by name) virulently attack Chabad for years,including speculating that you cannot be meshadech yourself with them. I will find the KOl koreh’s if you want.
As far as Rav kook zz’l and Rav Joshe Ber, you must be living on a different planet if you have never heard negative comments about Rav Kook and his shittah and Reb Joshe ber and his shittah.
And, as far as 10, surely you must know that the Gro put the chassidim in cherem and this attitude towards chassidim continues today, albeit in quieter tones, as the chassidm today are too numerous anc powerful.
Lastly, there are many different Piskei halacha, NOT because the Poskim have different OPINIONS but they have different INTERPRETATIONS. Is the artcile by Rav belsky based on interpretations of halacha? Or is it just his opinion that they have strayed? A crucial difference, I think.
I must add that I have not actually read the article but I base myself on what is being reported. I have all the respect for Rav Belsky shelita but I do not have to agree with him on this matter. Chabad feels slighted and they have reacted accordingly.
cantoresq, “emunas chachomim” TODAY is used by Rabbonim and Roshei yeshiva to stifle debate and to keep the sheep..oops…the talmidim in line. Actually, if you are a chossid of a rebbe, I have no problem if you follow him but I have a huge problem when whatever a rosh yeshiva says, it becomes “halocho lemosh misinai”. This was never the case till this century and the reasom is simple, too many things have happened recently that have disproved the opinion of many gedolim and so, they have to fall back on the old saying:: “It is so because I said so”
just a quick response to will hill and others. I know little of past testimony and what REALLY went on in the war. All I can attest to are “eidei reeiah” who were in hungary throughout the whole war and people who owe their lives to kastner and who are alive and well today-many of them chareidim,not zionists. Remember, there were 1700 Jews on that train,amongst them the Satmarer rebbe and people I actually know. If saving 1700 jews are not enough for you, then you can continue vituperating against katner. For me, saving 1700 jews from death in those days is a mark of distinction. All the rest is pure conjecture,including vrba’s testimony.As far as “being dressed up in a nazi uniform” , the Boobver rebe himself was dressed up in a Nazi unifrom when he escaped from Hungary. THAT, I heard from his owen mouth,so you can believe whatever you want, I will stick to things I actually have seen or heard myself.
I suspect that the only reason why you and joseph and others keep on harping on kastner has nothing to do with him or what he did but you are conveniently using him to attack the “evil Zionists’ and the reason for that is, that you and all the chareidi revisionists are trying to cover up their own shortcomings in the war.
For me, I prefer not to be judgmental on ANYONE,because “al todin es chavercho at shetagyia limkomo”
to “I can only try”…More revisionist talk…No one has ever said that,once you have a PSAK DIN on a matter of halacha, you can blithely ignore it. However, as far as “milei de-alma’,matters of general interest, there is absolutely no compulsion to follow the advice -not Psak- of any godol. YOu ARE making them “imfallible” when you say that you cannot discuss ‘shortcomings” of Rabbonim. And I have some news for you, R’Moshe zz’l was castigated by many a Rov and baal habayis even on his Piskei halacha! And pray tell me, must I check my own intelligence and “shikul hadaas” at the door when I speak to a godol? This attitude of ’emunas chachomim” is of very recent vintage and is totally in contradiction to past centuries.BTW, your example of Rav Yehoshua is totally besides the point. Rabbon Gamliel was acting as NOSSIH when he ordered Rav Yehoshua to come to him on “his’ Yom Kippur. And, if you know the gemoro, you will see that Rabbon Gamliel paid a heavy price for this highhandedness.The comments by Rav Belsky shelita had nothing to do with psak. IF he told you, as a matter of HALACHA, that you cannot-for example- enter 770, then YOU should follow him, as a matter of psak. His comments, however, had nothing to do with psak and everything to do with opinion. And opinions can be challenged.UJM, did you say the same when they besmirched the Lubavitcher rebbe zz’l and all his chassidim when a godol (whom I shall not name here) said you cannot be “meshadech’ with them? Do you say the same when some chareidim continue to insult and vilify the memory of Rav Kook zz’l? Do you say the same when some bnai yeshiva keep on referring to Rav Soloveichik as J.B.? Do you say the same when some in the oilam hayeshivos continually deride chassidim of all kind? Or is it only when a chareidi godol of your liking gets questioned that you bristle at the insults?
To matisjohu28 ; Well, I, for one, am happy to be called an ‘apikores’ by matisjohu, who does not know an ounce of halacha (see other posting on what I wrote on one of his asinine comments) And, of course, he spouts the same revisionist rethoric that many of our yeshiva graduates spout today.I have news for you, the issue of “emunas chachomim”, the way you describe it, is a twentieth century invention. Never before, in our history,has ’emunas chachomim” spread to ‘milei de-alma”. matters of general interest.
If you can bring me ONE reliable view of previous generations that says that you must check your intelligence at the door and totally submit your will and mind to a Rov on MATTERS OF GENERAL INTEREST, please provide us with that source. “LO sossur’ applies to halacha, and not to matters of general interest. If this view qualifies me as an “apikores” in your eyes, so be it. I am probably in very good company with many other good jews.
To cherrybim: you are quite right i nsaying that I do not follow what goes on at 770 and I have little interest in doing this. I can only follow my own eyes and expereince. Chabad is responsible for tens, maybe hundreds, of thousands of jews finding their mesorah again. For this laone, all else should be forgiven.
Whether the rebbe was moshiach or could be moshiach or whatever is of no interest to me.As long as Chabadniks put on tefillin and keep shabbos and all the mitzvas, who can have the chutzpah of comparing them with -chas vecholilah- X-anity. Saying that indeed comes close to motzi shem rah. I have not read the article and so I will not, in any way, judge Rav Belsky, but in the geder of ahavas yisroel, it is not.
Pashute Yid,
You and I seem to hold the fort against the hordes…..Yasher Koach!
thank you, joseph, although to me the most important item is Kastner’s supposed testimony on BEHALF of a nazi officer, which happened, according to the writers, at Nuremberg.
cherrybim, when you become the Mister gallup of the Jewish community, you can give the sweeping statement that you just made. Till that moment,I think you should refrain from saying such an asinine comment as you did. I cannot comment on the actual words of Rabby Belsky, not having read it, but the feeling that he semingly exhibits is not shared by any of the segments of the Jewish people that you mention. Actually, it is only some litvishe Roshei yeshiva that have this view and, as usual, this is because they are elitist and think that only they possess the real Torah. They said the same about the chassidim since the days of the gro and they have been dismissive of the Sefradim for decades.As far as the “centrist” wing, ha! Yeshiva University is scarcely better than a church in their eyes….So,please,spare us and everyone else your sanctimoniousness…
joseph, why do you insist in refusing to discuss the shortcomings of our rabbonim? This can only feed cynicism and utter disbelief in any Rov or Godol. For some unearthly reason, in this past century, we have made our Gedolim and Rabbonim “infallible”. If a Rov or even a Godol says something wrong or inappropiate , then the truth should be told. I have not seen , in the past, any Godol, hold himself back from criticizing other gedolim (see Satmarer Rov, see Rav Shach and may others).No, I have NOT actually seen Rav Belsky’s words (it would be useful to know where these comments appeared) but IF the report of this is correct, then, absolutely I agree with Rav Silverberg. Additionally and historically, Rav Belsky is wrong. There is no greater personality cult today than the slavish and mindless submission that the Yeshivaleit have for their Roshei Yeshiva. What’s good for the goose is surely good for the gander.
mariner!! WOW !!!! (how much time did it take you?)
the comma after “forum” is also superfluous. Remember, NEVER a comma before “and”.
cantoresq…your posting begs the question…Which trope do you accept as nussach? The litvishe trope? the German trope? The Galitzianer trope? The Yemenite trope? (Probably the most authentic one)
In truth, none of us even how what they sang in the Bais Hamikdash and what was music two thousand years ago. And nussach changes all the time but them, we have argued over that in another posting….
Think big- when I said ‘no blame can be attached to anyone”, I meant the matter of the Holocaust. I fail to see what blame you want to attach to the Zionists in THAT matter. You and I (and Joseph and some others) have discussed that ad nauseum…and we shall have different views on that.
I hate to ask, but what is S.I.B.O. ?
I am going to break my resolution in not always responding to the many subjects posted but I feel that, “lema-an ha-emess” some of the postings who claim to be halachally authoritative muts be corrected.
Matisyohu28 writes “pants are assur for an entirely different reason” and then goes on to make all pants “ossur”. I hate to break it to you,in view of your snide remarksa about modern orthodoxy, but you are totally wrong. Pants that are made for women are NOT beged ish and there are some pants that can be worn, although I understand that the chareidi oilam does not wear it.
Rav Ovadia Josef shelita explicitly allows pants of a certain cut and all you need is to check the Bach and other Poskim to see that pants can be worn. Last time I looked, the Bach and the Shach were of the “old’ generation……
think big, actually, your posting made me chuckle. You seem to lump me together with cantoresq in one big anti-chareidi mass. Forgive me if I am wrong about this. I am kind of disappointed in that because I love chassidim -who are certainly charedim. I have learned in chareidi yeshivos and, as you wrote, have two sons who may be considered in the chareidi camp. So, I fully and absolutely understand the chareidi position(and yes, I have learned the vaoyel moshe too).
Our disagreement is about which way is the truth- no- let me rephrase this- which way is more applicable today, because I don’t want to imply that the chareidi/agudah way is “wrong”. And in this, I squarely follow the Gedolim ,and there are many of them, who take a much more sanguine view of Eretz yisroel and our attachment to the medinah.
The reason why I do not suscribe to an uncritical acceptance of a specific Godol’s word is because I just don’t believe that gedolim are infallible, and especially when there are other divergent views.
Well, maybe now we have truly exhausted our discussion on this and only the future will tell.
TO think big, I did say ‘that mistakes were made on both sides” but I fail to understand Joseph’s point. I did not target any gedolim of that dor. I have consistently said (see above post) that, IN HINDSIGHT, decisions made then were a mistake. And I also said that, because it is IN HINDSIGHT, no blame can be attached to anyone.
I am going to get into trouble again by thsi posting…Think Big- with the greatest respect to your very erudite message, your interpretation of Rav Shach’s story made its presentation worse. What does tznius have to do with asking a sheilah? I have seen countless of women going to many, many rebbes for advise and berochos (including roshei yeshiva,btw). No one has ever said that there was a lack of tznius when they entered the inner sanctum. Why would the fact that two girls have a genuine sheilah smack o “lack of znius,lack of propriety and a bit of arrogance…”. Arrogance????? Asking a question on a difficult part of Torah? LUDICROUS! The gemoro has some very revealing stories about asking questions from Sages, in situations that you surely would consider “inappropriate”.
Anyway, I ,specifically, did not want tc comment on this story. First, I want it confirmed because ,as said ad nauseum on this website, there are many “urban jewish stories” around. Secondly, Rav Shach zz’l was indeed the leader of the litvishe velt for a number of years. However, there were many other voices who did encourage women to learn (like the Lubavitcher rebbe zz’l)and so, rather than commenting upon a past Godol who is not here to answer any qestions, I will keep my mouth shut on this.
yeshiva guy, may I point out that the question of ervah will not apply to women. Additonally, I lived in a different country where sunset was very late and it was common for MEN to daven in the train as they could not do it before then.
And why do you want to deny women the right to daven? Actually, they are “MECHYOV” in tefillah as tefillah is NOT a mitzvah shehazman geromo. It is just the faxct of the organized, three tefillas that they are not obligated to do, but tefillah itself is part of their chiyuv.
Is there any purpose to a posting that tries to mediate between Think BIG and cantoresq? Maybe not, but I’ll try.
Cantoresq, I hope to be as ardent a Zionist as you and I have said publicly (check my posts)that the chareidim are wrong in not taking a larger part in the medinah (BTW, chareidm were chalutzim too and worked the earth as the others. Not today ,sadly, but then no one does anymore) and I do feel that they are absolutely wrong in not joining the army,although it seems to be that changes may be in the air now.
I do take exception to your description of the “weak and cowering ghetto jew of yore”. It is a diservice to generations of jews who continued to keep the flame of yiddishkeit alive through the most difficult times of our history. Jews wer not the only ones who -as you say- ‘cowered” in the face of greater might. Check your history. Until the 19th century, few countries were independent and most people “cowered’ before the mightier armies. I prefer to honor the memories of my forefathers who lived and labored valiantly under very difficult circumstances.
Think BIG, I am not going to repeat the debate we had over the past days, but here again,I will take exception to by your first paragraph.”chochi veoitzem jodi’ there might have been, but there also was a real attempt at fusing the Zionist ideals with Torah. And as to your assertion that ‘the long and bitter galus will come to an end with Moshiach Zitkeinu”, The gemoro (shmuel,rabbi akiva,etc) and the Rambam seem to indicate that it is in our hands to start the geulah.And this is the basis upon which Rav Kook zz’l based his whole approahc to Eretz Yisroel. (btw, he was a talmid of Volozhin)
There is a saying in chazal, “hane-elovim ve-einon olvim”, so I restrict my answer to mariner by just pointing out the reason why I though his comments were “appalling”‘
You wrote (amongst a lot of other stuff)”almost all major mekomei torah in europe were LITVISH…mir,ponevtich…etc” I hate to break it to you, but Jews did some learning in Warsaw, Cracow,Pressburg,Sanz,Liadi,etc..too.
You seem to confuse the yeshivos with mekomos hatorah. And-may I point out that the majority of poskim in Europe were not of litvishe origin.(check it out out). It is not right to demean people that you never met.
Additonally, you question virtually every minhag that the chassidim have (upsherin, not sitting in the sukkah on shmini atzeret..etc…)ALL of these minhagim have a solid basis in halacha. Incidentally,not putting tefilin on chol hamoed has the better of the argument.
I had a long exchange with Think Big over some of the words that I have used in the past and I admitted to be in the wrong. I was determined not to “bad-mouth’ anyone and I think it owuld be advisable for everyone to do this and debate the issues on its merit.
BY THE WAY, Rav Hutner zz’l was NOT of chassidsiche origin. He was of Ashkenaz origin,although not necessarily Litvish. (I heard this from his own mouth) and the only reason why he was somewhat close to chassidus was because he grew up in Warsaw, not exactly a litvishe place. Also, you claim “his learning was litvish”. “bemechilas kevod toroscho”, his learning was eons away from litvish learning. Whether in his “ma-amorim”,which definitely were not litvish, or even his pilpulim and his sefer on Nozir, his learning was a far cry from litvish.
Anyway- I suscribe to the Torah of a blue-blood yekke, who learned in the litvishe citadel of Lakewood and turned to chassidus. His Torah was one of unlimited ahavas ysroel. I mean, of course, R’shlomo Carlebach zz’l.Kein jirbu komohu beyisroel.
think big and matisyohu28,
ABSOLUTELY !!!! I would put a bullet through every cursed nazi I oculd and so did many of the fighters in the war. You are indeed correct in saying that there is still a reason to kill the enemies of our people. And matisyohu28 can assert that the nazis were spiritual descendants of Amalek, again, true. My point was that if you would meet that person today, without knowing his background , you could not have that mitzvah today.
Clearly, if he is a murderer and enemy , you would have to kill him, because of “ubiartu horoh mikirbecho”.
if you insist that Rav Kaniesky knew/knows that his soul was from Amalek, I’ll agree to this. Actually, this whole story could be easily verified. Was there indeed such a room of Nazi paraphenalia? Or wasn’t there? Just have the actual person coem forward and I’ll be happy to accept the story. As said previously, if there are reliable witnesses, sure, you should believe.
joseph, I did not bring it up. Think BIG commented on my statement “that there were mistakes made on both sides” and gave his version of the decisiosn made in those days.
May I just correct a very common misconception of this blog, as some people have been saying that you can have the mitzvah of “mechias amolek” today. Let’s not dwell on whether we actually could do it. The fact is that the gemoro says that today we do NOT know who amalek is. “Boh sancheriv ubilbel kol haolam kuloh”. Sancheriv (the Assyrian) came and mixed up (transferred populations) the whole world. Hence, TODAY, we do not know who is an amoleki and the mitzvah is moot. YOu will not be able to know who is an amoleki till Elijah Hanovi comes and tells us.
So this whole story about killing an amoleki is one of psychological support,but not one of actual veracity. I’d fall of my chair if I heard (authoritatively)that Rav Kanievski shelita said that this man was ACTUALLY an amoleki.
I am not sure I should get involved in this discussion lest I will be called (as Joseph intimates) part of the 21st century crowd….with all the supposed stigma it carries with it…But before giving an opinion, “jelamdenu rabbeinu”, did Devorah Haneviah bake cookies? Did Chana, from whom we learn our tefillos, bake cookies? Did Esther Hamalkah bake cookies? Did Beruriah eishes Rav Meir bake cookies?My point is not to give you a litany of many, many women in our history who were nevios, shoiftois, etc but to say again, that this emphasis on keeping women ignorant, because this is what JO Jo wants, was never a part of our history. We seem to be totally blinded in following a way of life that was not a part of our history and that only bacame so because we were in golus and abject poverty.
If you want to debate this matter, at least debate it on halachic grounds, whether teaching a woman Torah is permissible in in which way it is permissible. That is a valuable debate and ,at least , has some historical substance.
To keep women ignorant is not part of our tradition. (I won’t comment on Rav Shachs zz’l words.)