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gavra at work—The “dating problem” posting seems to have disappeared. I did look up the gemoro in Bava Basra 91B you mentioned” the “memreh’ of Rav Jochanan about the two youngsters walking (playing- Rashi) together and still “belo cheth” is very interesting. i admit I did not remember it . There is also a Marsho on this. If you read this posting, I thank you for this mekor. I will try to discuss it at a later date.
Zalman, at least YOU went back to the mekoros. If nothing else, I made you go and look it up. GOOD. All I wanted from the “posters” is KNOWLEDGE. Matisjohu did not know these mekoros and blithely spouted soem words. YOU, at least , brought down the mekoros from the gemoro and the rambam. For that, I compliment you. I wil IY”H respond to your posting later.
joseph…I checked some statistics on the Holocaust. It comes from Wikipedia but it is buttressed by many studies. It says that in Poland, 90% of the jews were killed ( I knew that too). In Germany, many emigatred before the war and, although most moved to Czhecoslovakia and Holland and France, a quarter of the pre-war jews in germany and Austria survived. The ones who moved to the above named countries did go to their death in the same proportion as the others. In Hungary, over 50% were killed.
One sentence we can both agree upon” “Hashem jenokem domom”
Mdlevine…..Your long posting made sense…till the last paragraph!! Pashute Yid has already skewered your argument pretty well but allow me to add another twist…WHY can’t I question a godol on his opinions?? Remember, this is not a Psak halocho that you ask for and should accept. These are OPINIONS ON GENERAL MATTERS!! (including Rav Belsky’s opinion on Chabad). I have argued till I am blue in the face that it is fully legitimate to question a godol’s OPINIOn on genral matters! My continuing back and forth with joseph has been on that detail….I do not believe that “emunas chachomim” has anything to do with matters of general interest and that “daas torah”, with its intimation of no dissent, is a modern invention.
Allow me to quote a gemoro (in berochos) that said that when Dovid Hamelech wanted to go to war , he consulted the Sanhedrin, then his advisers and lastly ,teh Urim Vetumim.
If emunas chachomim and daas torah are so infallible, why didn’t he just ask the sanhedrin and nothing else1 After all, they were the last word on everything, according to you, and their word could not be questioned. The answer is that their opinion was not the last word, juts an opinion.
I fail to see why this has changed. You may call me an “apikoros” for not believeng in “daas torah” as you call it, but I have never seen any legitimate basis for leaving my own intelligence at the door when talking to a godol.
to gavra at work….Although you are right in ssying that measurements are exact in halacha, it isd also clear that, at times, the Torah and the chachomim use rounded off measurements (see malkos and sefirah). There is also a concept of “guzmos” in gemoro, so ,at times, measurements are not exact. How and when to apply this is the question of the day.
joseph…as far as the statistics of german Jews surviving, you have to give me the place you found that statistic. As far as I know, the Jews who were non-citizens were returned to their place of origin (Poland, Chzechsolvakia,etc..) The ones who were German citizens spread out throughout the world and.as far as I know, mostly survived.So, please supply the origin of that statistic.
As far as the terminal patient.I don’t understand yoru question. If it is a halachic question (turning off a respirator,taking away the feeding tube..etc) it is a halachic decision and, as said numerous times, you follow the HALACHIC decision of your Possek. If it is a question of ADVICE, then a rebbe or Godol’s advice is what it is. YOu can accept it or reject it. Chassidim today will follow their rebbe’s advice rigourously. There are many cases that such advice was wonderful and there are many cases that the advice did not help. And, if one feels that the reccomendation of a doctor is better and follows that advice, then so be it. I don’t think it detracts from ’emunas chachomim’, as I understand it, if you veer away from the general advice of a Rov. If you are a true “maamin’ in THAT Rov, then you do it at your peril. If you don’t think it makes sense, you are on your own. And I have said in another context that I do believe in the “yeshuous’ of Rebbes (even so-called Litvishe rebbes).
The above discussion does not take away my contention that, at times, even gedolim make mistakes. Long, long ago, on this webiste, this was the discussion about Rav Belsky’s words and whether he could be mistaken. The ones who supported the criticism on his article believed that his status as a real Godol does not make him immune to mistakes. The ones who defend him vociferously think he cannot make a mistake, at least not on this matter.
Well, I have to add my “apikorsheshe’ opinions to Pashute Yid. Most of you advocate certain concperts of znius that are prevalent in your communities. This does not mean that it is halachacillay correct. Pashute Yid is abolsutely correct in saying that adding chumors is as ossur as gving wrong heterim.
To write: Birght colors are frobidden’ is adding a chumro that the Klal cannot live by and should never be advocated.
To make single women wear a certain hairstyle is a chumro that the vast majority of the Klal wil not live by.
Asc far as I know, only MEN are prohibited from wearing strong perfume (yes, look it up).It says nothing about women. Hence, another chumro that the Klal will not live by.
It is not clear at all that legs below the knee must be covered and the slits at that level cannot be ossur if the leg does not have to covered.
The question of “Kol isha” is a lot more complicated than making it a blanket prohibition.
Lastly, R’Moshe zz’l was the one who maintained that married woman’s hair could be uncovered up to a tefach! Check his teshuvos!
Yup,I know, they will call me an apikoros again-but I’ll live….
Unlike some other “posters”, I returned to the sources…And,indeed, my memoy served me right. Yichud has NOTHING to do with “lo tikrav” (the rambam quotes it as lo Tikroivu-plural). Yichuhd is prohibited (ossur) from a different posuk altogether. see gemoro Avoido Zorro 36:B.
I do not believe that the penuyos were toivel duriing Bais hamikdosh times and I think “Geshmakenstein”s assertion is, unfortunately, wrong.( the ramabam is in Hilchos Issurei Biah, chapter 22, if my memory is correct)
Someone as makpid on dikduk as yourself should not be using the word “toivel” see here
As I said much earlier, this debate , on the intricacies of the war and Kastner, by itself is a sterile and futile debate as no one really knew what went on. At best, it is of archival and historical relevance and , at worst, it is used as a club to make political points. Nonetheless, I will try to answer some of the more specific questions of Joseph.
Obviously, I do not have a list of rabbonim and rebbes who advocated remaining in Europe. Even less do I have written words or letters. So, if you don’t want to accept this news without more concrete evidence, you can rest easy. I, however, have spoken with many Holocaust survivors who told me that, when the various Rabbonim and rebbes were asked PRE-war, they certainly did not advocate leaving Europe. This happened in Poland and certainly in Hungary.
But Joseph, you miss my point. I will repeat, for the umpteenth time here, that I have never, ever accused or burdened any Rov, Godol, Rebbe with decisions made PRE-war. Decisions were made and advice given based on the facts known at the time. In short, many Jews realized that the Jews of Germay were persecuted and so were jews in Russia, Hungary, Romania and more. Everyone thought that this was in the category of another pogrom or ,at worst, like Girush Sefard or other exiles of the Middle Ages. NO ONE imagined the extent that the Nazis YM’S would go to exterminate our people. Based on this thought pattern, most rabbonim did indeed advice to ride out the “storm” and not panic and leave everything behind.
Unfortunately, something monstrous happened, something that occurred once in history- the systematic attempt to exterminate the Jewish people. (Other attempted genocides were never that systematic,well, Purim may be the other one). This just was not thought of, or ever imagined. And, although I think that many Hungarian jews did know about the many killings and the camps, there again, they hoped to ride out the storm. Remember,Hungary (and Romania) were Nazi allies but had their own governments. Unfortunately, Hungary was taken over by the nazis in 1944 and the Jews deported. Right next door, Romania, another early ally of Germany, did not give over their administration to the Nazis and, indeed, the Romanian jews were not deported. There were other atrocities (work camps,for ex.)and only on the East side of Romania, occupied by the germans early in 1941, did mass killings occur. Romania switched sides and its jews were not delivered into the clutches of the Nazis.
I am given you this short history to show that the advice of rabbonim and rebbes PRE-war and even during the war had a certain basis of logic. Where I differ from you is in affirming that their advice was the right one and should never be questioned. The fact is that this advice ultimately was not the right one in those CHANGED circumstances. Do I condemn those Rabbonim and gedolim? Absolutely not! But neither do I accept their word as “halocho lemoshe misinai”. Even the greatest of our leaders make mistakes and are fallible. This , by the way, is how this whole debate (on Rav belsky) started.
Where you and I differ is in evaluating the advice or the opinions of various gedolim. You accept these words as the ultimate truth and hence, you cannot accept that advice given during the war years were wrong. I, on the other hand, do not have this ’emunas chachomim”. I freely admit it(leave the debate on that for another day)and I can accept that the biggest Gedolim make mistakes. Hence, I can say that their advice during the Holocaust was not the right one. In my eyes, this does not take anything away from their “gadlus” but I do not have to accept their word as the ultimate truth.
This is why I, personally, do not accept their view on Eretz Yisroel or the geulah or other matters of the Klal. History is the only real arbiter of earlier opinions. The Holocaust , sadly, proved their earlier advice as being erroneous. THIS DOES NOT DIMINISH THEIR GREATNESS because,very simply, they do not always have to be right.As far as Eretz Yisroel and yes, Zionism, goes, history wil tell.For now, I am pretty satisfied with the early returns.
This seems to be a two-way debate between joseph and myself, ref. zionsim. Actually, I am pleased that it is ,indeed, a civil discussion.
Whether anyone would call themselves zionists or not is truly irrelevant today. The great majority of Chareidim in Ertezt Yisroel today participate in the “medinah’ politically and financially. They built towns everywhwere, they are amongst the most conservative people as far as compromising on the land, and, SHCOK!, mnay even go to the army! (especially the chassidim). They never call the medinah evil and they certainly never say that Eretz Yisroel would be better under Arab rule, chas vesholom.
A very small minority may still talk the old way but, as is normal in history,they vast majority has accepted ‘medinat Israel” de facto and many have done this ‘de jure’.
On a personal level, I ascribe to the miracle of Eretz Yisroel theological perspectives, and many of the chareidim do too. I consider them all crypto-zionists, because, as time goes on, they will become more and more a part of the fabric of the medinah. In mnay ways, they alreadyare !
YOu, and some others, disagree. This is your right but I suggest you go to Eretz Yisroel and speak to some of these rabbonim. You might get a different perspective.
Well, I did not see this posting till today. Geshmakenheistein, can you corrobarate your assertion that the “penuyos” in the time of the bais hamikdash were “tehoros”??? And , by the way, last time I looked, Dovid hamelech was before the bais hamikdosh. You have to show me a legitimate source that says that penuyos were toivel ,’commonly”, during that time.
I did not say that niddah is not an ervah- see my posting. The Torah does call her an ‘ervah”, although, as a matter of course, generally,only the family ‘aroyos” are called commonly ‘ervahs”.
kallah belo beracha has nothing to do with ervah. The term “keniddah’ is a talmudic device of emphasizing the severity of the transgression.
And lastly, I think that the lav of “Lo Tikrav’ (correct spelling) has to do with touching, kissing, etc…If my memory serves me right, yichud has nothing to do with ” “lo tikrav”.
I am pretty sure you had a good rebbe, the question is , did you quote him correctly?
Joseph, Did you read the original- UNCENSORED- speech? In it, the Bilgurayer explicitly states that there will NOT be a catastrophe in Hungary and this was his brother’s berocho ( the belzer). His speech ahs been censored in later editions. I am absolutely serious about this!
I did not say there was a “widespread prevention” from “escaping”. I did say that , when asked, most Rabbonim advised to stay in Europe, BUT this was before the war started. Obviously, once the war started, everyone tried to escape. See Mirrer yesivah, see all the Jews who fled to Siberia,etc.. Although the Bilgurayer rebbe’s speech may have helped to lull some people into a false sense of safety. AGAIN, I am not painting any nefarious picture of the speech, just that even the belzer rebbe ‘zz’l ,who was a zaddik amongst zaddikim, did not necessarily see or know everything.
to cantoresq and ,parenthetically to joseph,
The Holocaust raised gigantic theological questions. I just don’t want to start another long drawn-out debate on this here…the only thing that can explain that catastrophe is “hester ponim” to the N’th degree.
Concerning the asking of advice,questioned by cantoresq.It is natural for everyone to do so. I have said consistently that one does NOT have to check his sechel at the door when asking advice.You don’t HAVE to follow the advice if you feel differently. Hence, the Jews who asked for advice from gedolim of all kind before the war but did NOT heed their word (like your talmid of reb Elchonon)did what their own intuition told them. This does not invalidate the aspect of asking advice from rabbonim, gedolim, or family members for all I know.My point is that their advice is human and they are not infallible and G-d did not make them infallible either! It is a warped attitude that was born very recently (daas torah,etc..)This has been amply proven by Rabbi Alfred Kaplan and others. So, it is incorrect to ask the question you asked, because Hashem Yisborach NEVER intended US to believe in their words blindly. We still have bechirah!
well, a quick comment to joseph about the so-called laughter of those mosdos….Sorry to disabuse you, but I HAVE talked to many of these yidden (gerrer chassidim. vishnizter chassidim ,mirrer jungeleit…etc) and “peh echod’, they will echo MY words in reference to the medinah. You are correct that they would not conside themselves “zionists” in the traditional sense, but ALL are steadfast in their support of the “medinah”,building the mosdos hatorah and trying to spread yiddishkeit. Some of them even have read Rav KOOK….
My view may sound “unconventional” to you but Eretz Yisroel has been unconventional for decades now….I prefer to look at the results and I don’t get too hung up on labels..
Your comparison to Rav chaim Sonnenfeld is spurious because he was niftar long before the medinah and who knows what he would have said? For your information, his relationship to Rav Kook was very cordial.
As far as the Satmarer rebbe and the neturei karta go, there you are right. They cannot be considered crypto-zionists at all. Remember, reb Joelish zz’l told his chassidim in the fifties to LEAVE Eretz Yisroel.I know because I knew some of them! He was implacably opposed to the medinah and he was never for building anything there and satmar still has not built much there, unlike Ger and Vishnitz and Belz,etc. the same goes for the neturei karta,even the old “sane” neturei karta, who was content to live under Turkish rule.
As an aside, do you realize that hundreds of original jerushalmis left Meah Sheorim to fight in the 1948 war? And many,many more have rejected the “neturei karta”s extremist (to me) view.
gosh, joseph, and I was on my way out…
As to your grammatical question- When you read “Jom’ in hebrew, it has a ‘yud” – a consonant, and then a “Yud’, a vowel. “Y” is a vowel and “j” is a consonant. Hence, when using the English letter in transliteration, I follow the rule.( Interestingly, matisYohu may be more correct in this case) But really, this is an obscure discussion that is not exactly at the top of my agenda.
Concerning where my father A”H lived during the war. He lived in Transylvania- then Rumania- and was saved for the simple reason that part of Transylvania became part of Rumania after WWI. The other part remained Hungarian and the Jews were deported -unfortunately- in 1944.Many members of my family were part of these Kedoshim. My father A”H knew many of the people I mentioned. It was quite common to cross from Romania to Hungary before the end of the war, as both supported Nazi germany till rumania made a volte-face in 1944.
I imagine that you refer to Zalman’s question concerning the people who were told to stay in Europe in WWII. I have personally spoken to Survivors who told me that most rebbes and Rabbonim advised them not to leave Europe for Eretz ysroel or even America, a sensible advice during those times. Sadly, it had tragic results. By the way, if you have a chance to read the (uncensored) Bilgurayer rebbe’s words to the Hungarian jews in the name of his brother of the Belzer rebbe zz’lin in Budapest, you will see the same pattern.
If you speak to Rebbes today and ask them the question as to how was this possible (that gedolim could not see the truth), they will tell you that Hakodesh Boruch Hu took away the capacity of Gedolim to know and see the truth. It was a “hester ponim” for which we have no answer. This has been a civil dialogue so I will not explore the reasons given POST-war for that “Hester ponim” by various people.
Well, there may yet be hope for us Yidden, as we have been able to have a civil discourse!
I just re-read on of Zalman’s answers to a posting, concerning the so-called anti-Zionism of the yeshivos I mentioned in an earleir post.
dear zalman, again, you have missed the point. I have said a number of times that I consider the yeshivos In Eretz ysroel, the chassidische courts and others ,crypto-Zionists.
By that I mean that they have an absolute belief in the further prosperity and survival of Israel, ‘the evil medinah”. They will NEVER consider the present medinah “treif” and, on the contrary, they support it, pray for its survival and have a major input in its development. They would call it absurd to believe that Arab rule -G-d forbid- would be better. In my opinion, that is “zionism”. Living and working and learning there and developing Eretz ysroel.
They may be strongly anti- SECULAR ZIONISM, but they are pro-Eretz ysroel, pro-medinah, pro-alyah.
I suggest you speak to some of them before you call them anti-zionists.
Well, after a long weekend, just a few comments,as my name has been mentioned a few times.
Dear zalman- I too have a job and I am not retired (for the ones who might know me-this is a real laugher). I do object to matisjohu writing something (about women/girls learning gemoro, for ex.) and then disappearing without backing it up. This is (in Rush Limbaugh’s words) akin to the ‘drive-by media”, a play on the horrid incidences of ‘drive-by’ murders. Chas vecholilo, I am not accusing matisjohu of drive-by murder-G-d forbid, but this is typical of people on this website making a wild statement and never bscking it up. I don’t know where he (Ma.) has disappeared to and maybe he will come back but for now, maybe it is incumbent upon YOU (who quoted him) to bring me some sources.Maybe it might make a good opportunity of looking into some Rambams. (there is a clue…)
As far as the discussion between Cantoresq and others, this debate has truly become sterile and futile. But it is absolutely true that many ( maybe not all) Hungarian Jews knew about Poland, the ghettos and the camps. This I know from MY father A”H who told me that there were numerous Jews who were able to flee Poland to Hungary ad told everyone: “me harget yidden- antloift!” (they are killing Jews, FLEE!). Amongst those who were in the middle of the Nazi persecutions and passed through Hungary include the Belzer rebbe and the Bilgurayer rebbe (his brother) and the Bobove rebbe. It is inconceivable to believe that they (and others) did not tell the Jews wherever they went that the Nazis were exterminating Yidden. Hungarian Jews knew but ,sadly, for whatever reason, did not fully react to the danger.
As for some other snide remarks- I,personally, have never attacked ANY Godol, Rebbe, Rov or Rosh yeshiva for their conduct pre-war or during its years. I try to adhere very closely to the maamar chazal: ” Al todin es chavercho at shetagya limkomo” We are ALL human beings and we can only make decisions based on what we see here and now and I sure have no idea how I would have reacted.
I have, however, also maintained that no Godol is infallible and the fact that their advice to many jews pre-war and during the war is proof that even they can make mistakes. By the way, there are numerous stories of Jews being told by their Rabbonim or rebbes not to leave Europe. Justc ask some survivors. It is not only a solitary letetr by Reb Elchonon Wasserman HY”D.
Lastly, I spell matisJohu and not MatisYohu because I think this is the correct way. It is Jom Hashishi, not Yom hashishi.
You are hundred percent RIGHT!! Halachacally, it is much betetr to wear a snood or a hat or a scarf ,covering al lthe hair. Thre is not even a question about this. Rav Ovadia josef shelita, I think, even forbids sheitlech in favor of scarves and hats.
But then, you are living in the midst of a pretty materialistic society, in spite of all their protestations. Nothing wrong in that as I, too, live in such surroundings and may even have sampled the materialistic dream. However, it is INEXCUSABLE to be rude to your wife. She is the “Aishes Chayil’,not them! Gut shabbos!
There is nothing I have to add to the words of mariner and Pashute Yid….”Ashrecho Yisroel” or more humurously, “Elementary, my dear watson”…
And as far as my children (and pashute Yid) who are black-hatters- actually, so am I… I wear a black hat (and more) on shabbos but I am still proud of my love for Eretz Yisroel and the medinah…And my son actually LIVES in Jerushulaim-unlike the critics who live in comfort in boro park , kiryas joel and others…
The real facts are as the above postings have described…and you will find countless of Yidden who wear shtreimlech’s, spodiks’s and Kapote’s who agree with the sentiments as described by mariner and Pashute Yid…
On a very charitable note, I will maintain that the critics just don’t get it. Eretz Yisroel is well past its “secular zionism’, which they attack and is well into its “traditional zionism’ phase.In due time ,it will turn into a “religious zionism” and ultimately into a “chareidi zionism”. As said earlier, “umole ho-oretz deoh”
I can only try– thanks for your input. I did say to him ‘mochul loch” in an earlier posting, regardless of his mistaken shittos. Some day, even he will see the truth! “Umolei kol ho-oilam binoh”
To Will Hill and Doc……
A famous comic once said : ‘ Who are you going to believe, your own eyes or what I am telling you?” You can talk till you are blue in the face about the “evil medinah”, the “corrupt regime”, the “death of zionism” etc…and you will believe what you want to see.
As I told someone on a different post, go to your gemach and borrow money for a trip to Eretz Yisroel. I may even contribute to this loan. Go and see whether your silly comments have any basis.Go and see the mosdos hatorah in Mir, Ponevez and countless of other yeshivos., The Kiryot of Wishniz, Belz, Ger, Seret Wishnitz and dozens of other chassidische Courts who have rebuilt their shattered homes in That “evil medina”.
And to you ,doc, those few idealists “with white hair” that you are talking about live in Hebron and Karnei Shomron. They live in countless of other villages and cities on OUR HOly Land and live “betsimsum”,unlike you who lives in a godless country and benefit from the riches of gentiles…”Shomanto, Oviso, Kosiso”.
THEY are the Yidden who live in full accordance with our Chazal and our Rishonim and you are the prime example of the maamar chazal ” kol hador bechutz lo-oretz domeh kemi she-ein lo elokai”. Go translate this maamar chazal and cry for not living in that ‘evil medinah”
zalman….I see that you don’t even read your own postings….About the only “kaf zechus’ I have is that they were not your own words originally,made on page 3, and you repeated his whole posting on page 5. Allow me to refresh your memeory;
“no shittoh(that women can learn gemero…” check it out again!
I have not heard from matisjohu since I gave him the challenge to back up his words. he must have gone into hiding. If you believe the same, then give me your sources.
I am doing this because this website suffers from a total lack of scholarship and a blatant lack of knowledge of halacha and Poskim. For Matisjohu to spout this item snd for you to repeat it, you can only do this if you have an idea of the subject discussed. Otherwise, you are only parroting what you hear in the mikvah.
Incidentally, you may accuse me and Pashute Yid and cantoresq of being apologists for Zionism, the “evil medinah”, etc. At least all of us have solid sources for our opinions and Pashute Yid is a talmid chochom who knows his halacha.
So, i invite you to give me some sources.Otherwsie, I will have to give a shiur on this website and wouldn’t that be a novelty!
As far as Kastner goes…..”OISGESHPIELT” !!! This is the most sterile debate I have seen in a while and I will refrain from commenting on this. BASTA!
ABSOLUTELY ALWAYS ! illinio7 AND YANKY55 ARE CORRECT. THE BARDITCHEVER (AS PER JOSEPH)WENT THROUGH MENTAL HOOPS TO PROTECT ANY JEW. SO SHOULD WE! And i humbly suggest that you never say a word when coming to shiducchim. there are lengthy paragraphs in shmiras haloson what you can and cannot say in reference to shiducchim. check it out.
To ‘AbovePOstersEmbarassMeasaJew”. HUH ???? I truly, truly, have no idea what you mean!!
To zalman….Well, at least you acknowledge that there is no trace of the chofetz chaim -in his seforim- saying anything like what you mentioned. You qute Reb Elchonon Wasserman in “Kobetz Shiurim”. Can you give me the exact place and quotation? Till I see it , then, I will still ignore this remark.i have learned quite a bit of reb elchonon’s sefer and I do not remember this remark ever appearing.
I have no idea what Reb Eliohu Lopion’s words have anything to do with our converation about Eretz Ysroel and the medinah. I am sure you now that Reb Elye zz’l had his yeshiva in Kfar Chassidim….in the “evil’ medinah!
To PASHUTE YID !! THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU. As I wrote, the Kastner controversy is a sterile debate and has NOTHING to do with the magnificent success of Eretz Ysroel and the revival of our own rule in our homeland,due, in no small matter, to chilonim..but then the detractors will never admit what their own eyes see. To paraphrase a famous remark: “What are you going to believe, your own eyes or what your evil inclination wants you to believe? “
I perused the comments on this matter just recently and, as I have always said, people on this website do NOT learn, they just parrot what they MIGHT have heard. Mr. Geshmakenstein’s latest posting is a perfect example of this.
He writes (and oomis1105 repeats it): ‘yichud is prohibited [with an unmarried woman] and has the severity of yihud d’oraisa ,due to her being a nidah”.
I don’t know know where Mr. geshmakenstein learned his gemoro and halachos but his facts are WRONG. Mi-d’oraisa ,only yichud with an ‘ervah” or married woman is prohibited. “bais din shel dovid gozru al hapenuyah”. The Bet Din of dovid hamelech forbade yichud with a “pnuyah” (unmarried woman)because of the story of Amnon and Tamar. (look it up ,geniuses)
Additionally, what does the maamar ‘kallah belo berocho…” have to do with anything? This is only an admonishment to have chupah vekiddushin and make the birchos nisuin. Nothint to do with yichud.
oomis1105, don’t be taken in by people who don’t know what they are talking about. And a kallah ,as far as I know, is never called an “ervah”. To answer one of the questioners,(lgbg) ‘ervah’ takes its name from the parshyot in vaYikro who describe the forbidden relationships and are mainly the family forbidden connections. It does include a “niddah” (Vayikro 18)The possuk calls them all “ervah”.
oomis 1105…I presume from you remark “And I don’t even get to wear it’ that you are a woman. Were you aware that there were very pious rebbetzins in the past generations that did wear a talis koton? (We’ll see how many postings we get on THIS subject)
To zalman…I have followed the various postings on this subject and I have not seen cantoresq. attack any Rabbonim and certainly not imply that they were complicit in murder. Unless you mean his questions on the satmarer rebbe zz’l… If anything, I have been more vocal on questioning the authority of rabbonim than the other bloggers…So, you can direct your criticism at me, and, of course, you will be able to show me the mekor for women/girls being prohibited from learning gemoro…You cannot? OH, MG, is there really no mekor for this? tssk, tssk…
blue shirt………OK, thank you for your input. I will try to moderate my tone next time and use some humor…as you can see (I hope) from my more recent posting….
to lammed hey….I will absolutely agree with you that, in case I see a man (especially on Shabbos)coming towards me with multi-colored neon crocs,I’ll think that he is either :
1) coming from a flatbush kiddush and having imbibed some of that good single malt
2) coming from an audition to fill Popov the clown’s shoes- (pun intended)
3) lost his own shoes while going to the mikvah (maybe mysteriously disappeared?) and reached out for the closest pair in the Mikva (the mind boggles at the thought of many neon-colored crocs in the mikvah)
4) Certainly he is, at least, color-blind and thinks he is wearing his grandfather’s “shtivel” (boots) from his days in Poland.
5) he is a woman in drag going to a reform shtibel.
It still does not make it begged isha…..
“NOw are you happy”. Show your SOURCES please ! Just because you say so, ain’t so! Naked feet are not an ervah!
And since when are bright colors “beged ish”? This is the most preposterous idea ever. I cannot wear a brigth tie? or a bright jacket? this is nonsense!
You will have to explain to me your statement “kol haposel bemumo posel” concerning my posting. “Mah inyan shemittah eitzel har sinai”?
Joseph, I did regret making a certain statement ONCE and ,if you remember, I asked mechillah from all. I also promised never to use that phrase again.I will accept your apologies and I will tell you that I am very proud to be an “apologist” for the Zionists and for the medinah. My very voluminous postings show why I believe in that shittah today, in spite of its many shortcomings. You (and others) have strongly disagreed. So be it. At least, this is par for this course.I have not made attacks of any kind on rabbonim and you can check that too.
As far as the story of Kastner, what I fail to understand is why you and other detractors of Kastner are so vehement about this episode of the Holocaust. I came into this some time ago and my only consistent position has been that no one knows what really happened. I came to Kastner’s defense because I think that no one knows the real story and especially in view of the fact that who knows how WE would have reacted in those difficult moments.
I can only come to the conclusion that, on this website, Kastner stands in for all those ‘evil Zionists” and you and all the others are assuaging your conscience on the Holocaust by painting those “evil Zionists” in the blackest way.
In reality, this is a sterile debate. I prefer to talk about Eretz yisroel today and yes, the success of the Medinah. You will disagree but at least, this is a real debate.
will hill, on ONE item you are right. The rebbe Rashab (reb sholom ber)who is quoted did die in 1920. So, at least you got one thing right.
To say that the chofetz chaim was ‘an anti-zionist” is redundant. Even I admit that most of the European gedolim were against zionism in the early part of the twentieth century. So what? A couple of small things happened after those early years, like the Holocaust, the establishment of Israel, the Six-day War, the resurgence IN ISRAEL of the chassidische courts and the litvishe yeshivas…all of that and more.
You and your colleagues keep on harping on an old theme- anti-zionism- that is totally “oisgesphielt”. It is not relevant anymore! My belief in the medinah may differ from the gerrer’s chossdi belief in the medinah. BUT BOTH of us are thankful for our homeland, BOTH of us accpet its legitimacy today and BOTH of us wil lwork to make it a continuing success.
Sadly, you and your colleagues in the US don’t seem to grasp the reality of Eretz Yisrole and of its “nitzhchyus”.
to will hill, you write that the quote by the chofetz chaim (equating zionism to amalek)was well known. Well known by whom? I have never heard of it and why should I beleive you about this? Also, how old was the chofetz chaim when he said it? After all, most of your colleagues here have said that the rebbe zz’l was senile the last twenty- five years of his life- (see matisjohu) maybe the chofets chaim was senile too? Yeah-yeah-you are going to accuse me of “zilzul rabbonim” but this is what you have done throughout this whole posting on the rebbe zz’l and other Gedolim.
Secondly, you bring down two quotes from the chofets chaim al hatorah. First, I have to see it in the original -in loshon kodesh- because I do not believe for one moment that the chofets chaim changed the meaning of the word “letefilah, ledoron ULEMICHOMO” to mean that ‘lemilchomo’ means fleeing. Not only is it impossible to condone this as a Pshat but ,if you read the whole Parsha there, it is obvious that yaakov was prepared for real war.
Concerning your other long quote, you (and all the other detractors) keep on harping on the godlessness of Zionism,etc….Never ,for one moment, do you address the religious aspect of Zionism, namely the shittah of the Netzic (before Zionism), Rav Kook and a multitude of other Gedolim. Obviously, you don’t want to do this because then you won’t have whom to beat with a stick,as it is clear that this shittah is total accord with halacha and Poskim and it is being hugely succesfull.
But you and your cohorts are so invested in your own prejudices that you have no choice but to be totally blind to reality and turn a blind eye to the possibility of six million Yidden perishing to justify your own false gods. SAD .
and to chuck schwab- your asinine comments don’t merit a reply but I suggest you go to your gemach and borrow money for a plane trip to Eretz Yisroel. Take a good look around you when you are there and tell me, on your return, about the “death throes of Zionism”
You see, there is the real world of Jerushalaim and Malchei yisroel and bnai berak and Ponevitz and kiryat vishnitz and belz and ashdod and Seret vishnitz….and a million other thriving frum communities and then, there is your world, filled with bitterness and jealousy, awash with anger and denial, truly a world in your own disutrbed mind, that has absolutely no connection to the real world.
And your quote ‘about allowing Hashem to do what He will do”. This smacks so much of the Holocaust that I find it vile and despicable. And you and your cohorts accuse Kastner of selling out Hungarian jewry? You are selling out six million jews in our eretz hakdosha with your veiled comments. Beware of what you are saying….you are treading o nthin ground…….
Joseph,YUP, we will continue to be in total denial to your words because we (pashute yid,cantoresq,and others) have one very simple advantage over all of you: ONE THOUSAND AND SEVEN HUNDRED JEWS, amongst them one person called Reb Joel Teitelbaum and many names I can quote but will not ,protecting their identity. Some are the grandchildren of one of the great Poskim of the previous dor. You see, Joseph, WE, the apikorsim have some gray hair and follow the mishnah ” al todin es chavercho at shetagya limkomo”. You and your colleagues obviously have excised this maamar chazal.
AND I WILL NOT BE MOICHEL YOU for the quote “who cares for these Nazi apologists”, meaning me and some others. That is indeed the most despicable thing you have written on this website. GO protect your resho-im, the neturei karta and ,come jom hadin, they will ask you to come ask mechilan of me,lest they return you to the place you deserve.
The saddest part of the postings on this website is the fact that the vast majority have no clue – not a scintilla of knowledge- of halacha.
The fact that there are holes in crocs mean ABSOLUTELY nothing. Feet are NOT an ervah!! This is so explicit in tenach, gemoro and Poskim that even asking this question is silly.
Then,one “oiberchochom’ writes that it is beged isha and prohibited to men. HUH???? Since when are crocs exclusive to women ? They are basically unisex and to say that they are ‘beged isha’ is stupid.
I wish that the ones who spout halacha would have actually learned halacha!
to will hill, HUH???? “ma inyian shemittah eitzel har sinai” ?
What does the fact that there are/were very evil gentiles have to do with the fact that there are/were very good gentiles? And you truly show your despicable nature when you say “assuming they are even telling the truth”. In other words, all those Jews who survived the war thanks to being hidden by gentiles never existed? They must have been the fruits of our fertile imagination! What garbage you spout!
Go out and learn your tenach, your gemoro and your Jewish history and you will see that there are “zaddikei umos huolom”. Maybe not enough, but they exist!
( I am not even going to try to comment on matisjohu’s comments. He lives in his own warped world)
A quick addition to Blue shirt’s brilliant analysis. One of the reasons for NOT wearing “techeiles’ is the fact that, “mi-deoraisa”, if the zizis are dyed with “techeiles” you can THEN have wool tzitzis on a linen “beged”, technically shaatnez, because of “asssei doche Lo saasei”. However, if today’s “techeiles” is NOT the real one then yoU are “oiver’ (transgress) THE “LAV” of shaatnez.
Hence, the Poskim have refused to use “techeiles” for fear that, if it is an incorrect dye, one would be ‘oiver’ the lav of shaatnez. Obviously, all of the people who use it today use WOOL taleisim, nonetheless to prevent any problems, Poskim have preferred to avoid using techeiles altogether.
well, zalman, you have posted a long posting with, ostensibly, comments by past gedolim on Zionists and- at time, on Eretz Yisroel. I suspect it is a pamphlet of the despicable neturei karta, who could not care less if six mllion jews died again but I prefer to address the quotations themselves.
FIRST, most of these quotes (except maybe reb Elchonon and Rav Hutner) are of the “once said” kind. Well, this is totally misleading because “once said” means nothing. There is no way of checking its accuracy, there is no way of knowing its context so, in truth , I could totally ignore it. I ABSOLUTELY do NOT believe, for one moment, that the Chofetz Chaim EVER said what you quote. I also do not believe many of the other quotes. In addition, many of the quotes are from people (Rav Hirsch, Reb Sholom Dov Scheersohn, Reb Shmhel Diskin) who died years BEFORE Zionism even existed.
You quote Rav Brach from Kasho, who is surprised at the Agudah! mind you,who are telling people to go live in Israel. Well, those people survived the war BECAUSE they listened to their Rabbonim.
In short, you have chosen some very selective quotes from the distant past that cannot be checked and many are fully taken out of context.
The irony of your pamphlet is that your quote from Rev Elchonon (in writing ,I imagine) about the “medinah’ bringing the Redemption CLOSER is EXACTLY what the Religious Zionists have been saying for years (based on a Rambam) that, regardless of who brought us back to Eretz Yisroel, it is the “Jad Hashem” that did it, to bring us closer to the geulah. Yout quote actually PROVES our point!
Rav Hutner zz’l had his own view about the Holocaust but he went to LIVE in Eretz ysroel in the the 1970’s and his son-in-law has a thriving yeshivah in Har Nof. I highly doubt that he ever would acquiesce to the evil statements of today’s neturei karta, who prefer Arab rule to what we have today.
Lastly, you have used some very selective and doubtful quotes while totally ignoring the huge amount of writings from Gedolim ,ranging from the early Rishonim till today,who advocated “alyah” (yes, alyah) and the actual establishment of a homeland.
But then, you could not care less about anyone who does not agree to your warped shittah. Well, as I said previously, continue in your way and eat your heart out at the success of our “treife medinah” and grind your teeth at seeing so much Torah floursh in the ‘evil medinah”
Zalman, I did NOT say that ,by saving themselves, Rabbonim killed people. Take an English reading class. In response to one of your comments that we needed zaddikim and rabbonim to be saved-RATHER THAN THE AVERAGE JEW- I noted the gemoro in sanhedrin that did not differentiate between people, and that included everyone!
I have never faulted ANYONE for trying to save himself in those terrible times because, simply, I do not know what I would have dome myself. “Al todin…” Hence, I keep my mouth shut-and that goes for the whole Kastner story.
well, I could not even come close to the magnificent postings of mariner and especially cantoresq. BTW, mariner, I only questioned your comments on chabad and the possibility of moshiach dying. I fully agree with your description of the mizrachi and the general stupidity of the opponents of today’s flourishing Ertez Yisroel ,that , in no small measure, is due to the “evil Zionists”.
Cantoresq, in spite of your disapproval of shloimele zz’l (another posting) you did a masterful job with your history of the aforementioned gedolim. For anyone in the yeshiva “velt” not to know Rav Yechiel Weinberg zz’l, the Seridei Aish,(as blue shirt notes) shows the total ignorance of these people posting on this website. And ,don’t worry, they would not recognize the “Melamed lehoil” from the priest next door, as they continue to live in their narrow insular world.For that< I could not care less, if not for the fact that they turn their backs to anyone who does not agree with their faulty opnions and thereby write off 95% of Klal ysroel. great ahavas yisroel!
As far as Zalman and Matisjohu’s knowledge, it is apparent that they have no idea of halacha or gemoro or poskim. Thye just parrot what they have heard from people who intrinsically hate most jews. I asked a very simple question to both. You assert that a woamn/girl is forbidden to learn gemoro. Can you quote the source for this? Till now, dead silence….
To zalman, all you did was copy a pamphlet of quotations of the despicable neturei karta branch that could not care less if six million jews died anew. After all, these are the same people who saw nothing wrong in hugging the rosho of Iran, who would wipe off Eretz Yisroel if he could. They truly have a din rodef and are “noisen jad leposhim”.
I am not even going to address the Kastner issue, cantoresq demolished your petty arguments as a bulldozer crushes a rickety hut. And yes, where was the hakoras hatov by the Satmarer rebbe to Ksstner???? The other people that were saved- that I actually know- DID express their thanks to Kastner. All I wish is that if you -chas vecholilo- ever got into such a matzav and are saved by a lowly “Yiddishe goy” you at least would know to thank him before rejecting him.if not, yo uwill not deserve to be saved.
As far as the substance of your pamphlet on the “hated medinah”, I’ll post an answer to that in my next posting.