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squeak, there is an expression ” ha-ahavah mekalkeles es hashuro” It means that excessive love for someone blinds one to the faults of that person. In your case, you can say the opposite; “hasinnah mekalkeles es hasuro”. Your intense dislike (dare I say hatred?) for YU and the so-called Modern orthodox jews has corrupted your judgment.
I know little of the ay club and the transgender professor, and I daresay that it is not part of YU but of one of the satellite schools and has more to do with the law of the land than the “tolerance” of the YU direction. As far as the Bible criticism class,again, I know little of it and I don’t even know if such a class exists.However, many Gedolim in the nineteenth century, chief amongst them the Malbim, had to answer the Bible criticism of that era and I am pretty sure that they knew about the various questions coming from that oorner. By definiton, they knew about Bible criticism and therefore had to have studied it.
Of course, you did not deny anything I wrote about Hirschian philosphy so I daresay you agree with me on the basics. I am not sure it was nirvana but ,clearly, it was the source of yiddishkeit for tens of thousands of real ‘ehrliche’ yidden for a century and a half. (For the record, I am not of German ancestry and find the “dryness” of their tradition too constricting)
dare I wnter this den of lions ? (more like toohless lions, I fear).
For starters, a few corrections:
R”S.R.Hirsch shittah was WAY MORE secular than Yeshiva University today. Check out the curriculum of his Jewish school in Frankfurt. There was way more “limudie chol’ than limudei kodesh. The essence of Hirschian philosophy is that Yiddishkeit can prosper amongst the gentiles even while having to accept some of their constrictions on work and life (for example, German sermons and university education). All this can happen ,he maintained, WITHOUT giving up the trappings of Orthodoxy.
This is precisely what Yeshiva University proclaims and practices. Hence, Hirscian Judaism is ABSOLUTELY the precursor of so-called “modern Orthodoxy”. Abd all the roshei yeshiva in YU are of the same idea- they follow Hirsch in his steadfast defense of halacha- HIS understanding of halacha- yet accept that living amongst the gentiles, one has to adapt some their ways.It is ludicrous to say that Hirsch would side with the chareidim today. He was the quintessential “torah umadda” advocate.
Anything else is plain revisionism by some latter-day rejectionists of Hirschian philosophy who cannot admit that Hirsch was not on their side. Virtually all of Orthodox Germany followed in his path- whether Rav Hildesheimer, R’Dovid Hoffman, the Berlin Rabbinical Seminary, and more. An interesting note: the Berlin seminary’s last rosh yesiva was one of the greatest talmidim of Slobodka- Rav Weinberg. zz.l.
I found Joseph and other’s comments on the “modern orthodox” jews repulsive and offensive. In times like today, when the Jewish world cries for some kind of achdus, insulting thousands of jews is not doing “rotzon hashem”.
I am not going to engage in the question of Kollel and whether it contravenes halacha, or whether there is room today for innovations in halacha.I prefer to be “min hane-elovim velo min ho-olvim”. To me, every Jew, every single jew has a holy neshomo and should be embraced, not rejected.
PM- The difference is very simple. “Asmachta” means that the person does not fully intend to give/lose the money involved and hence,it can be consdtrued as “geneivah” (albeit miderabbonon). However, if the person FULLY intends to give/lose whatever money is involved, then clearly, it is not an “asmachta’ but a full “kynian” and canot be considered ‘geneivah’ under any circumstances. This is elementary, my dear Watson.
gavra at work- I went back to the origins and your quote about “Pitttim geritzim’ is indeed in Eydios Third Perek but in mishna ten. I had long forgotten that mishna. However, the same EXACT mishna appears in Baitza ,second Perek ,Mishna vov (six).I got this info from the side commentators.
For the readers who dont’ know the quotation, Rav Gamliel ( I think he was the grandson of Rabbon Gamliel Hazoken)says that you can only bake small, thin breads on Yom Tov. (Gritzim meaning thin) because of “tircha’ on yom tov. The Chachomim disagree and Rav Gamliel then invokes “Bais Abba’ (his father’s house)that they only baked thin breads on yom tov. On this, the chachomim say that in Bais Abba they were machmir on themselves but for the Klal you are allowed to bake thick breads because they bake better.
Hence, gavra at work’s contention and proof that this is an example of people that take on chumros that are not required of the Klal.
Thank you for pointing out this mishna, gavra at work.
Well, it is the season of miracles indeed…notpashut and myslef coming close to agreeing! Both sides, it seems to me, are being flexible, at least in a theoratical sense. i remember the same happened to joseph and my in some early posting. Clearly, the slivovitz is flowing…BTW,I had some good scotch this morning!
This is to joseph (if he reads this post) I have encountered a “joseph’ on another commentary website, which I will not name (dai lechakima beremiza). Can it be you???
PM- No one- as far as i know- wants to be a ganav. the discussion about ‘kvitlech’ ,and dreidels too, is whether they could be played on Chanukkah. Yup- “mesachek bekuvia” (which are the dice, BTW) is considered gezel because it is an asmachta and not a real giving by the loser. However, you will have difficulty convincing me that in a game played with dimes and quarters on chanukkah, that the person losing a few dollars does not give them away volultarily. Once this is apparent, it is not an asmachta anymore, but a gift.
The mishnah in Sanhedrin is talking about professional players- as there are many today- and this is why they are posul le-edus. Additionally, if you gamble in large sums, the logic of asmachta makes sense. But if you play with pennies or even quarters, the actual sum is rather small and can be accepted as a gift.
OY—- a little levity is no sin! Even the tannoim and amoroim believed in “milse debedichuso”.
To all litvaks- I learned in litvishe yeshivos and particularly in strong mussar yeshivas. SO- I am very familiar with the litvishe/mussar derech.
Unfortunately, it just doesn’t agree with my “neshomo”. Mesillas jeshorim (and Shaarei teshuva and others..) are wonderful seforim. I just cannot be in permanent depression and morosity all the time.
My “neshomo’ wamts joy, singing and optimism. This is why I tend to the chassidische (and shlomo…)derech. I would just as soon tune out if the mussar derech would be the only one.
All of you are welcome to follow your own inclinations. As I said in another posting, I have all the resepct for gedolim of all machanos and the Chofetz Chaim was a giant of past generations.I am not sure that calling anyone a ‘killjoy’ is a lack of respect. It is -of course- a humurous remark but it does touch on some very fundamental issues, namely, what derech should one follow. That may be what should be discussed.
chacham, thank you for pointing out the mekor of playing dreidel on chanukkah.
NOTPASHUT….this is a funny story !
you are (partially) right in saying that we differ in whether we trust the “gedolei hador’ to make these decisions. This dovetails with our earlier discussion on when ‘daas torah” should be invoked.
My pther (pretty crucial) disagreeemnt with you is WHO those gedolei hador are and whether we must follow ONLY these gedolei hador.
And this comes back to the crux of a lot of discussions in this CR -as yo ucall it.
We are a diverse people and we have different Poskim that we follow in halachic rulings.
It SEEMS- and I repeat “seems”- that the chassidische and-ironically- the so-called modern orthodox Poskim tend to lean “lekulloh” on most issues. And it “seems’ that the so-called litvishe Poskim tend to lean le-chumro.
This is where most of the divisions arise. Whether on eiruvim, geirim, education, today-s litvhioshe gedolim have tilted le’chumro. This is what we see and why this conception is present.
well, a last posting before hadlakas ner chanukkah–
notpashut- The reason why you think that “we are making a lot of forward progress” is not that I have suddenly changed how I think. it is because ,ALL ALONG, I was who I was. You may have gotten a different idea from our discussions, but I know the ‘chareidi” world very well and even if I may disagree on some key issues (eretz yisroel primarily) I can understand the reasoning behind some of the halachic issues.
I have always respected the gedolim of all “machanos’ and I fully understand how halocho is arrived at. Where I differ from you is in declaring the fact that a Klal has to be treated differently than an individual. And – the way I see it – some poskim have eschewed that basic idea today.
This does not make them wrong , just that I think the “kulloh” is more appropriate for the “zibbur” ,regardless of whether we are richer or better today. BTW- I don’t remember saying that “the yeshivishe oilam is looking for chumros”. They are fully entitled to do this but I do not have to accept this view.
On many ,many issues contemporary Poskim have not tried to find a way out for some very serious problems. I will only quote one issue -one that has scarcely been talked about on this website- and this is the question of agunos.
There are hundreds-maybe thousands- of women who cannot receive a ‘get’ because of the intransigeance of their husbands. Now- in the past ,when divorce was rare, this was an isolated case and it would have been difficult to make special provisions.
Today, unfortunately, modern society is different and so ,some years ago, the Union of Orthodox Congr. came out with a “pre-nuptial’ agreement, that was fully halachically correct according to their Poskim. The proverbial all h-ll broke loose. From Israel
(beshem Rav Elyashiv, if I remember correctly),dire warnings that these gittin were not valid and the children of later marriages were mamzerim…”Kheruzim” were issued in Israel and on and on it went…
Till….it was explained to these Poskim what was really in these agreements and the whole matter went quiet.
Now, my point is not that ,ironically, Rav Elyashiv and others came to accept the halachic decision of the O-U rabbonim,but to ask, why the chareidi Poskim in Israel (and the US) did not come up with a good , or better, version of this agreement much earlier, so as to spare thousands of women terrible ‘agmas nefesh”.
And it is here that I question the logic of today’s Poskim. Because, as I see it, they did not want to look for an acceptable way for solving this problem as it would have entailed some kullos and possibly, even some ‘daas jochid”. SO -they did nothing. This is what I mean by a tendency today not to look for kullos.I can point to issues in past centuries where the Poskim did make very special provisions when the Klal was involved.
You are free to comment on this and till then- a freilichne chanukka!
(I will respond to your understanding of koach dehetaira later)
bored at work….as I said in an earlier posting, too many killjoys in our machane. I am glad I am a happy chossid…
gavra at work… thanks for the “amreh mekomos’. I salute your erudition. The last time I learned Edyios is some time ago but I will check it IYH…
i am not sure whether my psoting was sent…i clikced the wrong button…
anyway- notpashut, I will comment very briefly on yoru posting.
(BTW- I dont’ get my head bitten off too often)
You are right in saying that some of the kullos in the past were because of hardship. The best example is when ‘hefsed merubah’ is quoted. However, there are many instances when hardhsip is still present. It is very difficult for women with children to stay home all shabbos. This is a very acceptable reason why to institute an eiruv. There are others too-like making sure that no one is mechalel shabbos inadvertently. All these reasons are present today too.
It would be easy to unscrew the bottle tops before shabbos and you are welcome to do this but if one has not done so, there is a good reason to rely upon r’sholom zalman’s psak.It is thirst.
My point is that the search for kullos is a very legitimate way to pasken halochos, even today.For the klal, this is most evident,even if the jochid can do what he wants for himself, as many gedolim have done.
I still disagree with you on the meaning of ‘koach dehetaira odif”. Rashi makes it clear that the reason for this is because you need BETTER reasons to be “mattir”. By hence, it is more correct than to be machmir. By definition, it is easier to say no. Anway- as you say- this will be an ongoing debate.
The poster mentioned in the earlier posting was gavra at work. Thank you for the correction (The 1/2 he mentions is the mathematical difference whether the third means ‘from inside”- a third of the present sum ,or ‘from the outside’ , a third of the FINAL sum, which would make it one half of the original sum)
I have no intention of getting involved in the larger discussion of notpashut,SJSinNYC and others about leadershop in Klal yisroel. Too intense a subject and,at the end, everyone is right. But ,perusing over the (rather lengthy) posting by notpashut, I have to partially disagree with him on the matter of chumros and what to do when faced by such a dilemna.
BTW,I actually saw R”Shlomo Zalman’s zz’l psak on bottle tops ( I think it is brought down in Shemiras shabbbos kehilchoso). I have not seen the psak that notpashut claims he has heard from, yibodel lechaim tovim,Rav Elyashiv.Please elucidate and bring us the actual source,ESPECIALLY the fact that he says it is de’oraisa.
Be it what it may, to follow a chumro is,as he writes- for someone who wants FOR HIMSELF, to be machmir.Whether he wants to be a yirei shomaim or he wants to be joizeh lechol hadeos, a person ,individually, is entitled to do whatever he wnats and to be mekabel any chumro he wants.
HOWEVER, all this changes when you deal with the “tsibbur”. Then, as a matter of fact, you are NOT allowed to be machmir if you have the possibility of a kulloh. This is the whole essence of “koach dehetaira odif”. This is fully apparent in all sections of Shulchan aruch. Whether dealing with agunos (Even ho’ezer), or a eiruv on shabbos (Ohr hachaim) or with a question of kashrus when there is a hefsed merubah (joreh deah)or with questions of money where we say “jachloku’ or a similar compromise, (choshen mishpat). It is the duty of a possek to find the kulloh and to make life easier for the Klal.It is NOT the duty of a Possek to find a chumro.
Please peruse through any sefer of “shaalos uteshuvos” and you will find this approach respected. Sure ,there are cases when a possek feels he cannot find a kulloh but even then, he may advise the questioner to find someone else who will be able to Pasken ‘lekulloh”.
So, in the case of bottle tops, notpashut HIMSELF can decide he wnats to follow Rav Elyashiv. However, for the Klal, it is fully acceptable to follow R”Shlomo Zalman zz.l
Similarly ,his example of a sandwich and netilas yodaim. Of course, if you want to be machmir, you don’t eat the sandwich now. However, if the halocho allows you to eat it now (and it does) ,then the Klal can do it without any feelings of guilt whatsoever.
i don’t want to retread old postings but this is what should have been accepted (for example) about the eiruv in Boro park. Every individual can do what he thinks is right for him. For the klal, however, the eiruv should be valid.
In the larger picture, the so-called Modern orthodox crowd is entitled to follow the kullos of Poskim, because this is the halocho. The chareidim are entitled to be more machmir- but this cannot be a demand on the klal.
BTW- in answer to a correction of an earlier poster- for hiddur mitzvah we have to spend up to a THIRD more,as he wrote,from gemoro baba kama 9. When I wrote ‘up to a fifth’ , it was a reference to “al jevazvez odom joiser mhechomesh”. A man should never spend more than a fifth of his wealth on zeddakah (Kesubos 50). I thank the poster for his correction.
well, notpashut, I have just uncorked a bottle of fine eight-year old slivovitz and I hope we can share this at the (faux) chanukka party of YWN!ell, the party may be “faux’, but the slivovitz is real! And, for good measure, for the scotch lovers out there, I have a wonderful bottle of 15-year old Glenfiddich single malt ! You are welcome to share it with all of us in the upcoming chanukkha party!
I bet we can unite and be in real ‘achdus’ when we drink!
Oh, what a wonderful gift from G-d- good alcohol! ( in moderation, of course).
notpashut- not only is your apology accepted, I did not think you needed to apologize and , in truth, I was not offended. I mentioned it earlier- or in another posting- that this past summer I had some very nasty exchanges with some other posters. It bothered me and I decided to remain courteous in my exchanges and try not to make any ‘ad hominem’ attacks (for the uninitiated, it isd latin for personal).one can argue and one can be sharp in replies but it is not benefical to become personal. so, no apologies needed but they are accepted.
The irony of all this is , that , if you would ever meet me, you would see that I am as ‘black-hatted’ as you (maybe more) and my sons are absolutely black-hatted.
I do believe that gedolim of all kind are not always right and I tend to adhere to shittas that are not mainstream chareidi.
In my own private life, however, I am close to rebbes and respect all rabbonim.
So, although you and I have different iews,I bet we can share a shot of slivovitz afer davening.
BTW,notpashut- in view of the most recent developments, would you consider the whole agudath Yisroel as bering “mevazeh talmidei chachomim’ because they happne to diagree waith Rav Elyashiv opinion on the Knesset list? ( i assume that Rav Elyashiv will back degel hatorah)
well, notpashut, I don’t know why you have to stoop to this rather low level in our discussions. It is almost as if you have no argument to present and so all you do is make ‘ad hominem” attacks- calling your interlocutor all names under the sun. ooo646 is sadly right in his appraisal of many chareidim who will brook no discussion of any of “their’ gedolim’s words. But I digress. Let me deal with the crux of your counter-argument.
Yes, I will say ,quite explicitly, that – IN MILEI DE’ALMA – matters of day-to day conduct ,Rav Elyashiv shelita can be wrong and I- or any other human being – can be right.You can rhapsodize all you want about gedolim’s gadlus and their tsidkus and affirm that this makes them all-knowing. I do not accept that.The biggest gedolim have made mistakes and this still happens every day. “maaseh bechol yom”. Of course, I accept their exalted status- and it is indeed exalted- but this does not make them smarter or more clairvoyant. Otherwise, every business deal that they recommend will be succesful, every sick person that they advise will recover and every moissad or cause that they espouse will prosper. But this is not true. Plenty of business deals that they recommend fail ( I have first hand knowledge of this), many “choilim’ r’l die and many yeshivas and moisdos are bankrupt.
If you accept this -and I think you probaby do NOT accept this view because of your understanding of ‘daas torah”- then it is irrelevant who disputes the godol’s view. If he is wrong ,then it dones not matter that it is the little child who shouted that the emperor has no clothes. You did not need a smart man to see this.As a matter of fact ,the smart man was duped in denying this.
Similarly, if any human being-regardless of his age, status, religious standing- thinks that a godol is wrong in MILEI DE’ALMA – he has the full right to follow his conscience. What happens afterward will either prove or disprove his view and yes, the layman does take responsibility for his view.
I am not even going to argue why YOUR gedolim are BETTER than mine. I would say that the Lubavithcer rebbe was a pretty big godol, wouldn’t you say? Yet, none of your machane approve of him or his derech. And don’t bring me the case of Rav Tendler, How about quoting Rav Shlomo Goren zz’L? Why is he a lesser godol than the gedolim you follow? Give me ONE good reason why he should not be followed also.
My point is that the tsidkus status of a person does not make him automatically all-knowing.He is prone to make mistakes too. And ,ironically, you will only grant this omniscient status to gedolim that you approve of while totally rejecting others that you do not approve of.This a classical case of hypocrisy.
After all this is said, I absolutely deny that I bash chareidim, At best, I disagree with some of the views and apporaches of SOME of the chareidi gedolim.
As to your question on R’Moshe- you just made the case for the discussion earlier. R’Moshe’s kullos are talked about BECAUSE you need true gadlus to find and “pasken” hetteirim. You do not need gadlus to be machmir. Hence, R’Moshe’s kullos are what mark his as one of the great Poskim of the past generations.
notpashut- “shetikah ke-hodoah domo”. That strengthens MY case!
BTW, just a quick aside to the bove posting on “bashing” chareidim and their gedolim.
Last time I looked, Rav menashe Klein shelitsa,the person most responsible for the eiruv, is a chareidi.
Last time I looked, Rav Ovadia Josef shelita, who DID call Rav Sherman’s psak a lack of ahavas yisroel, is a chareidi.
Last time I looked, all the Lubavitcher shelichim and certainly their Rabbonim are chareidim.
Last time I looked, Rav Grossman shelita is also a chareidi.
And Rav Moshe Feinstein zz’l ,whose kullos were far-reaching in many areas, was a chareidi too.
So, notpashut, please don’t say that I, or others, bash chareidim. We don’t.
All we do is use our own minds and look at the facts critically. And yes, a times, it makes us doubt some gedolim’s words. If this is called “bashing’ chareidim, so be it. I sure am not going to give up my sechel and shikul hadaas for anyone.
WOW ! I usually start my dat ith a peek at YWN and allow myself some time later to make some comments…Well, I must say that I was totally blindsied by the comments of notpashut….And I feel the duty to answer him now.
What transpires time and time again from his words is what has been discussed numerous times on other postings and, by osmosis, in this posting.
NO ONE, absolutely NO ONE ever is “mevazeh gedolim’ as he writes. As a matter of fact, every poster, be he from YU, be he pro-zionist, be he a chabdnik, EVERY poster has the highest respect for every godol, regardless of his theological allegiance. Even the late Satmarer rebbe zz’l and Rav Shach zz’l are treated respectfully by all posters.
I dont’ want to point fingers here but this has not been the case by the “other” side towards the “other’ gedolim, but this is nto the purpose of this answer.
What notpashut (and others holding like him) want US and everyone else, is to ACCEPT unconditionally the view and the Psakim of HIS gedolim. this is the specter of immutable “daas torah’ again, which cannot be challenged.
The view of HIS gedolim are the right ones and no one should dare to think differently.
As he writes ; “what truly disgusts me is….the gedolim are wrong”.
Well, you know what, gedolim CAN be wrong and HAVE been wrong. You insisnt that the Lubavitcher rebbe zz’l is WRONG and Rav kook zz’l is WRONG, so why can’t I (and others) think that Rav Elyahsiv is WRONG?
What makes Rav Elyashiv shelita infallible?
Sorry, I cannot accept this view of “daas torah’ and yiddihskeit.
WHY this spills into the area of ‘ahavas yisroel’ is when you see, facts in hand, that some gedolim are NOT responsive to major Jewish crises that affect thousands and thoushand of Yidden.
Do you have ANY idea what kullos Poskim used after the Holocaust to be ‘mattir’ agunos?They used every kulloh in the book to allow women to remarry because it was a major Jewish crisis.
WHY can’t Poskim TODAY use similar kullos to free the agunos of today, held captive by their evil husbands? There are plenty of ways of doing this but the mainstream Poskim have generally turned a blind eye to this crisis. NOw, this, to me, is a lack of ahavas ysroel.
When a Bais Din “passels” THOUSANDS of real geirim without even considering what it means to thousands of families, NOW that is a lack of ahavas ysroel. (Ran Sherman is NOT a MIZRACHI rav,btw)
When illustrious Poskim allow an eiruv to be built in Boro park, it would behoove the opponents to respect the other view and, at the minimum, not cast any chilul shabbos aspersions on the other side. Now that is a lack of ahavas ysroel.
So, please stop lecturing us about the infallibility of gedolim and use some humility in respecting the other view as a valid one. Thye just, just may be right.
well, joseph, I plead guilty. Litvaks are killjoys.
I, by far, prefer to be a happy chossid.
BTW-this doesn’t make litvaks bad jews, chas vecholilo, just a little too introspective and morose for my taste.
oy—notpashut-
Why,oh,why, do my very temperate words provoke such strong answer from you??? When did I ever ,EVER, bash chareidim?? If an honest difference of opinion is considered “bashing”, then we are REALLY in trouble as a people.
Bais Hillel and Bais Shammai had tremendous machlokes ,yet one didn’t call the other one “basher”. The Rambam had many detractors but none of them insulted him or called him ‘basher”.
Only in recent times has this phenonenom taken hold-that any deviance from a certain line of belief is considered so beyond the pale that it means “bashing” the chareidim. I am truly sad to say it but this is in line with the new belief in “daas torah” which cannot tolerate anyone having a different opinion.
And your retort about gedolei olam not suscribing to both of these shittas (chabad and rav kook), you are fully entitled to follow those gedolim. I am also fully entitled to follow my gedolim and these do include the Lubavitcher rebbe zz’l and Rav Kook zz’l.
If the facts are so that ahavas ysroel is not present- then this is not bashing, just a matter of actual fact. There are plenty of chareidim who are fully engaged in ahavas ysroel, whether it is Rav Grossman or whether it is chabad, or the outreach organizations.
But when you start rejecting prefectly good geirim because you have a political agenda or you call people who rely upon a certain eiruv ‘mechallelei shabbos” because they carry on shabbos, or you refuse to search for a hetter for agunos when the need is so dire,well, this is a lack of ahavas yisroel..
I am not bashing anyone nor can you show that I ‘bash’ anyone. I accept the chareidi olam (I am one of them)and I am pretty well accepted by them. My dispute is with the view that the world can only live on chumros, patently a false assumption.
tzippi-seesm I am spending more time on this computer today but, hopefully, it will be for a good cause.
I said earlier that this is not strictly a chumro and kulloh thing (tinok shenishba) but it does pertain to the attitude today that is prevalent in some Yiddishe quarters.
As far as your other question, allow me a story from the brisker rov ,surely not a left-winger.
Once, he paskehed that someone should eat o nyom kippur and the talmidim asked him how come he was mwikil on hilchos jom kippur. he told them he wasn’t meikil on hilchos yom kippur but MACHMIR on hilchos pikuach nefesh.
I fully agree with you that it is incumbent upon us to be MACHMIR in hilchos ahavas yisroel. The problem you might have is that this approach is prevalent in two machanos that do not necessarily walk in lockstep with the “chareidi” world. These machanos are Chabad, which are the main exponents of this approach, and the talmidim of Rav Kook, who said that the antidote to “sinas chinom”, which destroyed the second Bays, is “ahavas chinom”. This is why he accepted the secular Zionists because he felt that the achdus of Klal yisroel was more important than the esoteric philosophical differences between the different factions.
I fully suscribe to the view of both machanos.
well, I have a few minutes today so I will continue on the thread of ‘chumros” and ‘kullos” and respond to dovidjehuda and others.
Joseph, give me a bit of time and I will quote you plenty of passages that deal with loving every jew. BTW- gavra at work -what you quote is a gemoro in berochos ,first perek.
dovid jehuda quotes chanukkah- and he proves my point. chanukkah is the ONLY mitzvah that all people do now as the “mehadrin min hamehadrin”. There are philosophical reasons for that on which i will elaborate some other time.
In al lother mitzvos, there is a basic mitzvah and the “hiddur’ is just that- a hiddur. EVEN on the hiddur ,the halocho has limitations such as not more than a fifth extra…etc.
The plain fact is that throughout history and all the halachic permutations, it was always incumbent to find ways to be LENIENT for the KLAL.
The machlokes of the eiruv in Boro Park is the example how far we have strayed from this in recent years. Many,many kehillos have always used Kullos for an eiruv and it was accepted for the klal.In Boro Park, the severity of the machlokes is the sad result of a new apporach today.I can add the question of agunos, geirim and others.
Bais hillel should be our example and, sadly, it is not what many of today’s Rabbonim do.
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I hate to rain on “joseph”‘s parade but to find a few quotations that condemn sinners and totally ignore a slew of other mekoros smacks of pure shophistry. You take a position and then ignore anything that may contradict your view. Thi is intellectually dishonest and actually is not in tune with halocho that looks at all sources before making any assumptions.
I did not realize that my comments would engender heated debates…Hopefully, it is for the better understanding of our problems and how to handle them.
notpashut-(and, by extension, to doc and others)- I would submit that you are wrong in your assertion that you can change a few words and be ‘equally” right,
The halocho is paskened overwhelmingly like Bais Hillel against Basi Shammai (with some isolated exceptions) and the main reason is exactly because ‘koach dehetairah odif”. The “strength” (validity) of finding a “hetter” is “odif” ,BETTER. This is unequivocal and has ramifications throughout the whole gemoro.
So- you are wrong in implying that a Possek or Rov who looks to be machmir is “equally’right. He is NOT equally right. He CAN follow the more “chumrudik’ way for himself and his followers as “middas chasidus” but for the people at large- he should NOT follow that path. This is apparent in all the different parts of Halocho.
This is why I said that “sadly” today, the people and Rabbonim instinctively dismiss the more lenient view. My view is that this goes againt the grain of the purpose of halocho and this view does NOT have the same validity for the klal.
As far as your quote from rashi-Rashie explains WHY “koach dehetaira odif” BECAUSE it is EASY to be machmir- all you have to say is NO. It is much more difficult to be meikal. This is whay Rashi says.
From the gemoro – it is clear that this is the BETTER way (ODIF) and this is evident from all halocho conclusions.
oo646- I intimated that the mekor for ‘tinok shenishba’ comes from the gemoro shabbos that deals with chiyuvim of “chatos”, a sacrifice for an unintended sin.There are differences in what it means ‘unintended’ (or “igorant’) sins.
I will IYH find the quotation and we will then see what the commentators say about what constitutes ‘tinok shenishba”. Stay tuned.
just a few more words on this subject of “tinok shenishba”. If my memory serves me correctly, the main aspect whether one is or not such a one would be irrelevant today as it has to do with the chiyuv of a korban after an aveirah “beshoggeg”. I will have to refresh my memory and look again in Shabbos perek klal godol.
So, there is “practical” issue today and it is just an expression to indentify people who are not responsible for their desecration of the halacha. There is, of course, a major difference in such a case, whether one has knowledge of the actual halacha or not. “Tinok shenishba” is deemed to have no knowledge and hence, no responsibility.
I couched it in the language of ‘chumro and kuloh” ,although it might not exactly fit the meaning, to show that there are people today (and ,to my mind, unfortunately, rabbonim) who instinctively dismiss a so-called lenient or all-inclusiver approach. That was my purpose in describing the difference between accepting every child with no jewish education and to contrast this to the harsher approach that dismisses out of hand anyone who does not fit in their meaning of “jewish identity”.
For the record, there is absolutely as much validity to a lenient view as to a harsher view.As a matter of fact “koach dehetaira odif”. finding leniencies is the ‘stronger’ (better) approach. oomis1005 is right.
the mishnah berurah was a litvak and, therefore, a killjoy like all other litvaks.
By the hungarian and galician rebbes, there is a minhag for the rebbe to play -very briefly- with the dreidel on “zos chanukkha”.
The story of the dreidel goes back to (apparently) the times of the Hasmoneans that were learning and when the greeks/Syrians burst into a house, they started playing dreidel to hide theri learning.
And lastly, the original ‘kvitlach’ are really the “quittly” that existed in Austria, Hungary, Galicia and actually only had twelve cards. It is a very good game and lots of fun!(only on chanukkah)
I hate to rain on someone’s parade,but the last comments,about ‘tinok shenishba”, illustrate perfectly the drift towards “chumras” that is making a caricature of yiddishkeit today.
Why take a very strict interpretation of “tinok shenishba”- that is, that the child should NEVER have had any contact with Jews, rather than the more lenient one that says that the lack of Jewish education and surroundings qualify someone as ‘tinok shenishba”, regardless whether he/she had some contact with Jews?
If you go only by the first one, you make thousands of jews sinners,not exactly what we should do at any juncture.if you take the latter view, then , you are giving everyone the benefit of the doubt, which is, incidentally, the Middah of Hakodseh Boruch huh and emulated by the chassidische rebbes.
Why the chumro indeed…..
true honesty…I am happy that we re-connected in good humor! I will IYH continue to debate with you (and others) in the future. For now, I got to go back to my daily work for a while…
well, I wrote a posting to true honesty on the “riddle” posting but they don’t seem to have posted it. In short- I fully accept your apologies ( on the hashkafa thread site that has been closed) and I hope we can -in the future- exchange plenty of ideas civilly and with Kovod to all!
well, I wrote a posting to true honesty on the “riddle” posting but they don’t seem to have posted it. In short- I fully accept your apologies ( on the hashkafa thread site that has been closed) and I hope we can -in the future- exchange plenty of ideas civilly and with Kovod to all!
mmmm…. Interesting that the runners seem to be the same people that are at odds with the general tenor of the posters here (pashute yid, illin07,etc) And, even more interesting, I(another of those pesky outsiders) too have been a runner for man, many years. I recently stopped running and only walk because of my knees (Pashute yid, I do not think it improves your knees).
In my heyday- I used to run 4-5 miles every other day. Often in the streets, more recently on a track. I loved it. It makes yo ufeel great ,improves your stamina and you really enjoy the shower afterwards!
I used to fun in the evening (I am not a morning person)but I hated doing it in the winter,too cold.
All of you youngsters- go for it and you will enjoy it! That includes “bais yaakov girls”. Why can’t you run too? if you are very frum ,just wear a very loose sskirt…
notpashut-firstly- I did not have time to “post” anything these past days so I was not able to add any comments on the “hashkafic tie” post. NO, it was not another Shlomo z’l weekend although I wish I could daven kabollas shabbos every week with his nussach.
Secondly,this whole ridiculous argument about the State and government of Israel is getting rather stale. (will hill and joseph seem to be the main inerlocutors here, with assists from bogen and others)
I did learn “ikvesu demeshecha”, although it was a long time ago. Similarly , I learned a big part of “Vajoel moshe” (to assure joseph)but then, I have also learned Rav Teichtal’s sefer (Eim habonim semeicha) and I have learned extensive passages from Rav Kook’s seforim.I have also read and learned extensive writigns from many other Geedolim on this matter.
On a personal level, I have accepted Rav kook’s shittah and I think that events and historical developments have proven him right.
You , and others, are welcome to continue to quote whatever you want from the past, but the future and history will prove (or- disprove) who was right.
On different occasions, I have clashed with some of the “posters” on this issue. I find it very sterile discussion because:
1) most of the people commenting on this live in the US and have no input into Israeli lives
2) Many of them may very well be hypocritical because they benefit from the State-either with money or with security
3)The discussion has no way to be proven except by seeing how it develops.
So- good luck,members, on your arguments!
well, haven’t you noticed that I have not “posted’ on this matter till now? That is because I have been kept busy monitoring all your comments… boy, did I have to delete so manyof your very inappropriate comments! It takes time to be a moderator!
PHEW….
I will refer in some way to cantoresq. words as arguing the point I have been making for a while. Tanur achcnoi (which I mwentioned earlier) is a prime example of that. The chachomim actually understood that R”eliezer was right in his arguments but Torah is not ordained from heaven, it is decided here.
To true Honesty…I’d have a lot more respect for your words if you would not have intimated a number of times that I (and my views) are borderline heretic. I ignored it the first time around but I will not ignore it this time.
What do you know about me? What do you know about my background, Torah views in general and what makes you so sure what I would have done in other circumstances? And what do you know which Gedolim I follow?
I am saying all this because your snide remarks about me is symptomatic of the arguments that you are displaying in this posting. For you, it is ‘daas torah’ and therefore one cannot argue with it ! Any saying by one of YOUR gedolim becomes “halocho lemoshe misinai” and anyone who dares question THEIR views is, at the minimum, wrong and, as you intimate, a kofer.
THAT is EXACTLY what this whole assertion of “daas torah” has brought us to!
In accepting that concept, there is no room for any other view except for YOUR gedolim! Anyone who questions ANYTHING of YOUR gedolim will be castigated as an ‘apikoros”.
Well,I am not playing your game. I do NOT have to accept YOUR gedolim’s words on anything, actually. I have the right to choose my own Posek and my own “Moreh derech”.
If this does not square with yoru views, sorry.
Until you can accept ME as someone who has the same interest in the advancement of Torah and yiddshkeit as you, I will not engage in futile discussions.
“derech eretz kodmo letorah”
notpashut— maybe the gap is not that far…
but we might well still differ on whether any Godol’s words can be wrong. I don’t want to arouse the ire of a number of our posters but the Holocaust has been put forward as an example where the words of the gedolim of that generation – who advised not to leave europe – proved to be disastrous. G-d forbid for me to make an issue of this but it is obvioust that this is one instance where advice of Gedolim was proven to be erroneous.
Another might be the issue of the State of Israel- I use the name ‘state’ on purpose because I believe that the approach of Rav Kook and his talmidim is the right one (in spite of recent events). Which ‘daas torah’ do you follow: Rav kook or the Satmarer rebbe? Both great people, both Gedolim. So, which one ‘s words are to be followed?
In short- on issues which don’t touch upon direct halacha, I feel there is no such thing as ‘daas torah’ which you have to follow blindly. Remember that the Lubavitcher rebbe insisted not to give back one inch- whereas some of the present Gedolim are more flexible. Whom do you follow?
There is no unitary authority in yiddishkeit and there is no infallibility either. Only history shows what is the right approach.
OY,oy,oy!!! I am not sure why I continue to be a masochist and read the postings of people who, while being very well-intentioned, limit their knowledge to the happenings of the last fifty years- the blink of an eye in our history and truly have no concept of Jewish history.
True honesty and notpashut- let me repeat my contentions and also my basis for asserting that “ddas torah’-as you interpret it- is of very recent vintage and has never been the norm in our history.
The idea that a Godol or Rov has the ABSOLUTE knowledge for everything and that one has to acccept all his sayings is ABSOLUTELY not the Jewish way. No one is infallible in our tradition. No one- not even Moshe rabbeinu- has absolute knowledge.
If you deny that- then you belong to a different religion.
This is my view, and everything else follows naturally. I have to accept the “PISKEI halocho” of poskim (at least the ones I take on as Posskim)by the fact of “lo sossur”, which deals exclusively with Piskei halocho.
However, on matters of everyday life and general conduct, no one has the absolute knowledge and I am not obliged to cast aside my own feelings and thoughts about this.
Note that I am saying I am not “obliged”. If I want to,sure I can accept this fact. That is why chassidim of all kinds do listen to their rebbe and why many of the yeshivaleit feel that they must listen to their roshei yeshiva.This is their privilege.
HOWEVER- it does not obligate ME or anyone else that does not accept this “yoke”.
Hence, to scream “daas torah” or “emunas chachomim’ is totally irrelevant. If I have not accepted that person’s leadership, this does not obligate me at all and I am not a worse jew for it.
notpashut- you mentioned “going to the bathroom”. well, many chassidim do not lift their finger without consulting their rebbe. Whether on business deals, shidduchim, jobs, houses, etc, they consult their rebbe. Does that mean I have to accept it too? NO- because I have not accepted that person’s yoke. It may be a good advice , but it is not obligatory for me.
tru honesty- I have no clue what you are trying to say with your examples of yesteryear. As a matter of fact, your examples support MY view of “daas torah”. I don’t know if anyone objected to translating the Torah in German but the fact is that it is being traslated in every language,starting many years ago. SO, where is your “daas torah” on this? if this would be an absolute “issur’ it could not be changed.
The fact is that the opinion of gedolim of yesteryear and today on “matters of general life’ are just that, opinions. They do not oblige me to follow this line at all.
I can- and will- vote for the candidate that I feel is right. The directive of any Godol by itself is only an opinion and does force me to follow it.
This never changed and has been so for thousands of years. You find time and time again in the gemoro that tannoim and amoroim had opinions that were not followed or , if they were followed, ended up wrongly.
SO, this is why I maintain that the concept of “daas torah’ that you espouse-namely that it is IMMUTABLE and MUST be followed, is a modern invention. only Piskei halocho have to be followed and ,even then, only if you accept this Possek.
I have not even started delving into the question of which godol is the one to follow.
true honesty- you, yourself admit you cannot fidn anywhere a basis for this idea. I wonder why this is so….could it be that it never really was a real concept?
The fact is that your concept of “daas torah’ is an invention of the twentieth century.
notpashut-thanks for the moment of humor – we could use it nowadays…
(BTW, I never replied to one of your early posts of some days ago- too much happening. I’ll try to do it IYH in due time)
feif un….I am puzzled by your posting…the cleaning process comes under the label “noisen ta-am lifgam’ because the cleansers damage any flavor and therefore the cleaning process should actually “kasher” the keilim -even if you assume that they have been used for something un-kosher.
Hence, I would like to hear whether this psak that you mention is genuine.
blue shirt , THANK YOU !!!
For the uninitiated, Rav Chaim Berlin declares it is not an issur for a man to shake the hand of a woman in a social setting. One caveat- he writes- “nochris”- a gentile woman.i wonder if this has to do that there is no issur niddah with a gentile woman.On the other hand, he proves hsi point from a gemoro that clearly talaks about a Jewish woman.
I love the ending of his teshuvo….
Will Hill, too much has happened these last days for me to delve into rather esoteric dialogues. I have never said that we pasken like Ben Azzai. You must confuse me with someone else. I did say that, even as we accept R’Eliezer’s words, they are not necessarily an “issur” because his words were NOT couched in the wordings of an “issur”.
joseph….the problem with your quote is that you see “ma-aseh bechol jom” and on every daf of gemoro that the tannaim and amoraim and rishonim, DID dispute the words of their predecessors all the tiem.
if the gemoro you quote meant that we could never question anything of a previous generation, then how come there are machlokes ALL the time?
In fact, the gemoro you qoute does not deal with opinions and piskei halacha, it deals with gadlus and having the tefillas accepted.
Well, I had hoped to stay out of this discussion but the last posting compelled me to answer this…
notpashut- I have read the articles in discussion and I think you are being totally hoodwinked by people who try to control everything you do.
You can talk till you are blue in the face but it is so clear that the modern “daas torah’ aspect is a modern invention that I am surprised anyone could even decry otherwise.
Till the twentieth century, you don’t even FIND this concept anywhere. I challenge you (and any others) to find anywhere, in the vast library of teshuvos, seforim ,pirushim,over the last two thousand years, that, IN MATTERS OF EVERYDAY LIFE, you have to exclude your own “sechel” and defer to any Rabbonim.
The lav of “lo sosur’ is clearly said ONLY for DIVREI HALACHA.
I will I”YH bring you some very specific proofs but, for the time being, please answer my challenge.
can someone be “all of the above” ? That describes me pretty well….
jphone, a ‘bochur’ is intent on finding his “eyshes chayil”. I doubt whether he wants a chavrusoh but intelligence and knowledge cannot harm the situation…
joseph….I am not sure whether I should be flattered or insulted that you singled me out to say “the point escapes you” (don’t worry,whather it is, I still read your blogs…)
Anyway- I (and others) continue to respect, honor and idolize our great Rabbonim throughout the centuries. This does not mean that they are/were not human. My pointo f contention with you is the fact that you accept Rabbonim’s words unconditioanlly, wheras Ii just cannot do this. Well, maybe I lack in emunah, but my sechel tells to question, if it is necessary.I ask questions and I puzzle over some of their decisions. This does not necessarily diminish hem in my eyes, just makes them human.