rabbiofberlin

sam2- I only know YCT because it is the yeshiva founded and led by Rabbi Avi weiss. I don’t know the people you mention nor do I know their piskei halacha. If you tell me where I can find them, I’ll look them up. It is hard to believe that they deny “mesorah” Please show sources.

itche srulik- you seem to agree with me- almost totally. i know little about their approach to halacha- will be pleased to look at the sources.

All I said was that the way they are being mocked and “tarred and feathered” (english expression) is unacceptable to me. If you allow this approach to dominate, you allow the same thing to happen to Rav Kook’s shittah, to the shittah of Lubavitch and anything that veers-ever so slightly- from the yeshivish world. Again- “hizharu chcomim bedivreichim”

Just for all those on this thread that keep on saying: “we are only making fun [of YCT]” you should all know that one of the worst sins -‘chatoim chamurim’ is “laitzonus”- to make fun and to dismiss- (see pachad Yitzchok on Purim) and you are guilty of much worse that just (just?) loshon horah. You have espoused the middah of amalek. (see pachad Yitzchok on purim).

I hold no brief for YCT as I know little of them but I do know that all of you who are abusing jewish people will answer for this in the other world.

zichmich= please read the news item properly. Eichler is proposing a professional army- for whomever chooses to serve- and a NATIONAL SERVICE for the rest of the population. Learning AND army would also be considered. Please read the news item again.Clearly, Eichler is proposing some kind of national service FOR EVERYONE. In the past (and also the present, as you read the comments of roshei yeshiva on the renewal of the tal law) the roshie yeshiva were virulently opposed to any compromise on the “torah umnoso’ aspect. So, Eichler is very flexible snd i am sure he has the approvla of his rebbes. (gerrer?)

zichmich- see item on the YWN news about Eichler introducing a bill to solve these issues. It mirros what people have been saying for a long time. And the chassidische rebbes did indeed tell their chassidim to go the army- I know personally many chassidim who were part of it. BTW- Rav Chaim Schmulewitz zt’l blessed all his talmidim and otherrs who went off to war in 1967.

As far as Peylim goes (ben levi) Rav Schwadron zt’l was never involved in the actual founding of Peyilim. This organization had absolutely nothing to do with the yemenites or the maabarot. It had everything to do with the missionary activity in israel. (I was there).

As far as what went on in the maabarot- again, a lot of it is an urban legend and if there were some excesses , it was never government policy nor do I think it was done in any large number.

I never heard the story about schools but, to put this inot perspective, anyone voting for Herut (menachem begin) in those days was also discriminated from jobs. It was a deplorable way of using politics and, thank G-d, it did not quench the thirst for real yddishkeit or for menachem begin to become prime minister.

Ben levi-your posting is totally incoherent. On top of this, you ignore all my points and go off on a tangent of “benefits’ in other countries that are available to poor people. these benefits are available to poor Israelies and poor Americnas and poor British…etc. We are talking very specifically here about direct payments to kollel jungeleit . THAT is not avalaible to anyone else in the world.

You must be very young because you have no idea what Peylim is. I was there at its onset. It was never an organization against the government,as you claim, but against the missionaries. You totally misrepresent Peyilim.

And please give me a real example of how the Israeli government set out to “bring the Yidden to shmad”. An absurd assertion!

ben levi= I checked my postings and I never wrote that “the Israeli governemt is responsible for the Torah learning in Israel today”- I did write that the fact that we have sovereignty over Eretz Yisroel assured us that the yeshivos and the kollelim continued to exist peacefully and are funded by the government.None of this would be possible under Arab rule (G-d forbid) or even British rule. Not one country in the world funds kollelim, as far as I know. And those gedolim that you quote “fought with all their might” could only do it under Jewish rule and it would certainly look different under alien rule.

It is true that the early Zionists were very secular and did not envision a religious Jewish people- so what? Does that mean that we throw the baby out with the bathwater? NO! We work and work ,we try to persuade and convince, we continue accepting the responsibility of living and defending Eretz Yisroel. Can you deny that Israel today is a vastly different country that it was fifty years ago? and it is all “letoivah” ! More religious Jews, more yeshivos, more kolellim, the continued building of our holy homeland- In Judea and Samaria and Jerushalaim… the protection of our mekomos hakedoshim…(BTW- another example of what would happen under arab rule was the destruction of kever josef when we left Shechem…)

Life is never perfect-anyone over 18 knows this. We can only improve with work and patience….not by leaving the field of batlle…

Well, I see that my postings have elicited a rather elaborate reply from (mainly)ymb. A couple of things: I have no desire-nor will I- re-open the debate about kastner and “the train”. Neither of us were there so we have no idea what Kastner did or did not do. The only fact we know is that 1700 jews were saved (amongst them many chareidim). As far Eichmann is concerned, he is burning in hell for all eternity but even ‘reshoim’receive ‘sechar’ for their good deeds and so maybe this is why he lived for another 17 years. BTW-Isrel was not a country when most of the Nazis were executed by the allies.

As far as Eretz Yisroel- you may have your opinion about whether one can have a ‘medinah’ or not. The facts are that over six million jews live in israel now, the yeshivos are thriving and yiddishkeit is gaining every day. This would never have been possible under Arab rule- we would have been either killed or expelled- you want proof? look at Iran, Egypt, Saudia Arabia ,Afghanistan and other Arab countries where all other religions are suppressed and persecuted- and this has nothing to do with Zionism. HKBH saw that the Moslems would become such a radical people that it would have impacted our lives as Jews even in Eretz Ysroel (as it dsid in Spain, England, France and other countries in our history)and made it possible for us to regain our sovereignity to protect all Jews living in Eretz Yisroel and all the “mekomos hakedoshim”- that would have been destroyed by the Arabs (see Afghanistan, Egypt and saudia Arabia).

No one could have foreseen in the early days of the twentieth century what would happen later-except for HKBH and He acted accordingly- giving us the opportunity to return to our homeland and exercising sovereignity over it- ‘ule hachayos lochem lifleito gedolah (bereishis 45-8)”.

Facts can be inconvenient but the facts are there for all to see.

zichmich- you probably don’t know that but your solution ids one of the proposed ones- namely to allow everyone to work LEGALLY but not spend any more money from the national treasury on the kollels. Do you know who opposes this? THE ROSHEI YESHIVA !! Because they know that, if given the opportunity, masses of so-called kollel jungeleit would leave the kollelim, thereby deprivig the roshei yesihva and their many hangers-on of jobs. That is the dirty little secret- the roshei yeshiva don’t want the people participating in normal life because it takes awy their power and their patronage.

The chassidische rebbes- by contrast- are desperate to come to an accomodation with the government- becasue they realize that it is impossible to continue with the status quo. I well remember what happened in the late fifties when the Vishnitzer rebbe zt’l opened up the first chareidi “hesder” yeshiva- he was pilloried by the roshei yeshiva because he dared- dared!- to give the young people an opportunity to ahve a normal life.He was cowed in withdrawing it. what a disgraceful way to treat one of the greatest chassdishce rebbes.

As far as your statement-that servinf in the army is against halacha- excuse me??? do you have any real source for this?

ymb- (shmoel or josef under a diffent name ?) First, get your history right. Many nazis were caught and executed by the allies and many more were sent to prison. Becher lived and who knows, maybe he too , had a hand in saving jews. I was not there- neither were you-and so, you should refrain from issuing any definite condemnations or opinions. BTW- Eichmann was a special symbol and this why Israel mae every effort to catch him.

As far as Israel goes- you are entitled to your opinion but you are not entitled to your facts.Eretz Yisroel was always a magnet to jews who wanted to live in Eretz Yisroel and make ‘alyah”- yes- this is what R’Jehuda halevi, The Bartenura, the Ari ,the Bias josef , and so many others did-they made alyah to live in eretz Yisroel.

It is ‘min hashomaim” that there was a movement in the late nineteenth century to establish jewish sovereignity over eretz yisroel-that movement was actually called “chovevei tsion” -a fully orthodox movement and it became the zionist movement.I believe-unlike you- that EVERYTHING is “min hashomaim”- including the zionist movement. If the orthodox jews would have embraced zionism and made it their own- we would now have a really jewish medinah. Unfortunately- it didn’t happen and we are now faced with governments that are secular. BUT- we are the owners of Eretz Yisroel and we should act accordingly- and protect it -and our brothers and sisters- by doing everything we can to support the defenders of the so-called “evil’ medinah. it is only evil in your eyes- in our eyes, it is the embodiment of the age old promise of HKBH to return us to our homeland. So, you can exclude yourself from the medinah, you can have your opinions but you cannot have your facts. The facts are that over six million jews live there, Torah is thriving and all of this is possible because HKBH gave us the means to defend ourselves- the army. Live with it.

patri- i did compare the “chareidi” votes to the religious zionist- the chareidi lists consistently polled less over the last sixty years than the religious zionist lists. ‘shas’ is in the middle and ,depending what they are considered, the chareidi number goes up.

I am not sure it is wise to ressuscitate the debate about Kastner,but I re-read “Shmoel”‘s words and I think I cannot sit silent as he spews the most despicable words about an evetn that he knows nothing about and that clearly saved many Jews- some of them virulet anti-zionists- yet they were saved by the efforts of a zionist.

It seems that this has been the leitmotiv of all anti-zionists in recent decades-the “despised’ zionists save their homes and yeshivos on many occasions- 1948, 1967,1973- yet when it comes to acknowledge the minimal “hakoras hatov’ to these brave people, they spit in their faces.

We al lrecognize that we have “syata dishmaya’ to thank for all the victories and successes but it is exactly that ‘syata dishmaya’ the HELP of HKBH- as we do our own “hishtadlus” and workto advance the Almighty’s wishes.

derszoger- you are echoing what I wrote.I have not seen the teshuva of the Tzitz Eliezer but I know that this question arose in the early years when it came to the question of women voting and taking certain positions in the political community. The Sefardi Chief rabbi, Rav ben Zion Uziel zt’l, allowed women to vote and occupy communal positions because, in a democratic society, no one has absolute power anymore- in contrast to the kings of yore, who were absolute rulers. The position of women is similar to that of Gerim, as it is derived from the same possuk.

There is absolutely no barrier to a ger becoming a Rov. there are many examples in the time of the gemoro that gerim were very prominent Tanaim (mibnei bonim shel homon horosho lomdu torah bivnei brak, shmaya ,avtalion, Unkelos hager, rabbi akiva desended from gerim)

There is a prohibition on making him KING (not just any communal position) ‘mikerev achechu tossim olechu melech”. Devorim 17-15. from amongst your “brothers” you should make a king. A ger is not considered “from amongst your brothers”.

shmoel- on a serious note (I posted another remark that may have been denied access), whether the brisker family came to Eretz isreol pre-state is irrelevant. This is where the rov found refuge and flourished. If the brisker have the same ‘shittah’ as the satmarer rebbe- let them leave eretz yisroel and move, as the satmarer rebbe did.

As far as Kastner goes, this is an old debate and you were not there, so you don’t know what happened. All I know is that the satmarer rebbe, R’Yonasan Steiff and his family, countless of other jews (over 1600 to be exact) were saved from the clutches of the nazis. You ,and all of those who are damning Kastner, never saved one jewish soul, so it would be best for you to be humble and keep quiet.

I know little about the so-called “brisker shittah” and I know some about the satmarer shitta. All I know that the brisker Rov zt’l was able to find refuge in Eretz yisroel- saving himself and being able to found a yeshiva in the so-called “evil’ medinah, all I know is that the Satmarer rebbe zt’l owes his life to a Zionist.

But the most outrageous words still come out from apukerma: he writes: “The jews of Eastern Europe were hardly annihilated”. Im don’t know what apukerma is smoking but tell this to the six million kedoshim. This is an outrageous statement. and then he compounds it by asserting that “nor was the beauty of Eastern Europe destroyed”. Go tell this to al lthe survivors of the countless of Jewish cities and villages that gave their blood snd died “al kiddush hashem” to give you, apukerma, the freedom to live as you wish.

The only ones I remember are SJSinNYC, feif un, Itche Srulik, real brisker.

MDG- thanks for the link. By the way- there is a discrepancy in those tables if you count the years of the individual kings- you get to 383-if you extrapolate the dates -it is 374- Maybe you can make some sense in this.

If you add the 40 years of shlomo’s reign and the 480 years before that- it would make either 903 or 894 years from jetzias mitzrayim to the churban bais rishon. The regular count we have is from seder olam rabbah (2nd century) and it would place jetzyias mitzrayim at about 1300 BCE. (2448 mybrias haolam). An earlier poster said that 586 came from josephus- this may be because josephus puts jetzyias mitzraim at a much earlier date (appx 1500 BCE),.Hence, it is possible that 586 did find its first proponent in josephus. well, now we can all go back and do soem more research.

holyMoe- thanks for the quote. I did see it and I will research the commentators on it.BTW- the possuk talks about “zekeinim”-old people.

May I also add another indication of longevity comes from Shimon Hazzzadik- that the perek says “hojo mei-anshei knesset hagedolah” and yet he is, according to the Gemara, the one who welcomed Alexander to Jerushalaim. Alexander the Great came to Jerusalem in appx 340 BCE- so Shimmon Hazzadik was, according to the chazal, over 150 years old ! (80 plus 70 plus…)

I am not sure we can extrapolate from one possuk but thank you for the quote from Ezra.

apukerma- this is the kind of thinking that brought us the holocaust-where millions of “jerei’m’ “ushleimim” died because of thinking like yours. The majority of those who died were shomrei torah umitzvos.

MDG-= thanks for your considerate reply. see HaLeivi’s comments. According to the historical documents of the Persian empire (and greek), there were a slew of Persian kings between the churban and the Second Temple, a fact that would be difficult to square with “only” 70 years of galut bavel. I will try to find the copy of Tradition where this matter is discussed and quote from it.

I have not heard that we get thev 586 date from Josephus. I doubt that.

As far as your assertion of the dates coming from Torah and neviim-I think that -if you count the years of “malchus jehuda’ until the churban bayis rishon- you will find that it does not reach till 420 either.

The whole question depends upon the length of golus bavel- we are accustomed to say it is seventy years but this has no real source in the Tenach.

yitainingwut- I did not necessarily assert that the Chazon Ish did not say what you said- just that it is one “shittah” and not necessarily the dominant one. Rav Abadi is surely a good witness to the Chazon Ish’s words-although,as the Chazon Ish died in 1953- close to sixty years ago- Rav Abadi must have been awfully young then….

MDG- you are working backwards. If there is indeed a discrepancy of 165 years, then all of the dates you mention are pushed back 165 years. the problem is not the dates that you mention, but the archeological and historical evidence that the churban bais rishon was much earlier than the dates you mention. You have the luxury to dismiss the historians’ claim but many people feel uncomfortable being blind to solid evidence. BTW- it is not exactly one of the “ani maamin’s to accept blindly the calculations and dates that you mention.

I posted a brief response to csar and others who maintain that shaking hands with a woman is “jaharog ve’al jaavor”but it wasn’t quoted. I don’t know the place from the Chazon Ish that he mentions- I do know that R”Moshe ztl has a couple of teshuvos on this and he is certainly not intimating the same thing. He quotes the minhag of Rabbonim in Germany that did shake hands and , although he writes “koshe lehattir”- it is difficult to be “meikel’, he surely does not say anything about “jaharog ve’al jaavor”.

I just want to correct one poster (csar) who quotes reb moshe as saying it is assur. Not true. All he says is that it would be difficult for a “baal nefesh’ to ne meikil. (Look up the wording of his actual teshuva)

dear sam2- the question still stands, even after quoting the Poskim that you mentioned. Why is recorded music “assur” ? Why add to the already harsh minhagim of sefirah (originally it was only for marriages). And forgive me, but to say that ‘even singing’ is assur then is so far removed from reality and something that the “zibbur “einon jecholim laamod bo”. Isn’t there s halacha (there is….) that, in aveilus, “holchim acharei hameikil’?And, by the way, in some yeshivos, they did allow recorded music and in other yeshivos, they even allowed to shave every erev shabbos….so, there are plenty of meikilim….