Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Together with all of klal ysroel, I mourn the petirah of Rav Elyashiv zz’l. He was modest in his life and a giant in Torah. May he be a meimitz yosher for all of klal yisroel. I will comment on daas yochid and hello 99 after the Levaya.
shlishi- He did not write apikorsus and the vendetta agaisnt him was pure malice. The various rabbonim did not even read his nooks to be able to judge. This is a fact.
R’Shlomo Zalman zz’l clearly thought differently. Halichos shlomo, perek 2, halocho 15. He clearly says that to daven with a tsibbur trumps the hat and jacket. (Full disclosure: I found this in the mihsne berurah mehuderes , that has many hagohos of later poskim)
daas jochid- where do you get the idea that , in the days of the tenach, the warrior’s ‘primary occupation’ was learning?? And I gave you my choice- be free to learn and avoid the army but dispense with the financing.
choppy- you are being insincere. There never was a time when there was such a large tsibbur relying upon -what you call- tsedakah. The avreichim and their families are below the poverty level and many of these don’t really belong in kollel. It is a burden that cannot be sustained. As I said, I am prepared to allow you to avoid the army but I will not finance your lifestyle.
As far as the Remo and the Shach, as far as I remember they do not say that you can make a career in living off zedakah. My point was that never in our history have so many people said that they deserve zedakah and put themselves on the tsibbur.
hello99- I have to adjourn for minhca maariv but I’d like to answer your posting- especially your assertion that some of us are traitors…(you even put this in bold..)
I wrote a response to choppy and daas yochid but I see the moderators in their wisdom did not post it, so let me try agasin,
choppy- i do believe that everyone shoudl contribute to tghe welfare of Eretz Ysroel, each according to his/her possibilities. This can include army, national service and even learning Torah. What I said was that it is impossible to have systme where tens of thousands of people rely upon the tsibbur. It carries the seeds of destruction sit- just look at what is happening to the welfare states in Europe and what will happen to the US- regardless of the merits of the people- one must be able to contribute. And I wrote that if you don’t want to serve in the army, so be it- but don’t expect the tsibbur to finance whole cities, this is just untenable.I was not obscring anything.
to daas jochid- From the eearliest days, there were always people in our history who learned but the vast majority worked. From the gemoro- see berochos 35- to the rishonim -see what the Rambam writes about people using Torah to earn a livin- to our acharonim- the chaey adam, the mateh efraim were business people, even the chofezt chaim earned a lving in some way-are you tellign me that all of these people did not give the primacy to the Torah??? preposterous. the klal has many people and everyone is part of a klal,even if they work !
kozov- there is absolutely no indication from shabbos 120A that one has to wear two hats. I have no idea where you get this from the mishne or the gemoro. On the contrary, from halacha, you clearly see that one covering is enough -see shulchan aruch siman 91-mishne 3-4-5.
yekke2 (and others)- Clearly, R’Chaim Kanyevski os one of the ‘gedolei hador’ but this psak is so unusual and goes against the grain of what we know that I must continue to question its veracity. Please check the RAMBAM , hilchos tefillah, perek 8, mishne 1, and you will see what importance the Rambam attaches to tefilla betsibbur. (BTW- tefilla itself is “midoraisa” but not the nussach or the fact of davening with a tsibbur) Now, check the Shulchan Aruch siman 91-siman 1-6 and you will see that there is a requirement to cover one’s head during tefilla and to act “keminhag hamakom” in matters of clothing. Clearly, though, it would be an absolute surprise taht the fact of davening with a tsibbur is LESS than using a hat or jacket- which is ,at best, a minhag hamakom.
The last two questions were answered “it is good” “lekatchilah”- so it is not a directive and you could act ‘keminhag hamakom”.
As far as davening ‘beyechidus’ being better than davening with the tsibbur without a hat (or even a jacket) this is truly an astonishing opinion and I daresay that something was lost in the translation (as these are not Rav Kanievsky own words)
oomis 1105- thank you for the good words.
hello99- let me tell you where I come from (you won’t know who I am anyway but you’ll have to trust me on the details)
First of all, I have two sons who are both in kollel and I am very proud of them. I have great hopes for them in the future. So, I have absolutely no axe to grind against people who want to learn and who want to learn for a long time. What I have said consistently -both to all the people who know me and on this website- that to learn in a kollel and to rely upon the Tsibbur- is a unique situation (my sons never took money from the tsibbur)
and should be reserved to a few. What has been happening in our time is that every moshe, jehuda and shlomo wants to learn- regardless of his merits. Now- that is fine with me and with many people but-please- don’t burden the tsibbur with this! there are enough mosdos who need help and our money is precious. If you have private money, you can do what you want with it, but the tsibuur has to be more selective!
By the way, have you ever thought what this approach- to learn indefinitely- has done to shidduchim? there are hundreds- maybe thousands- of good girls who cannot get a shidduch because the boys want to be supported ad infinitum- and the parents cannot go into debt for all their lives!
It has always been the custom in klal yisroel that a select few people learned and were supported by the tsibbur for a limited -mark it, limited- amount of time. (I’ll give examples in a moment) but never, never has this happened that whole cities are living on someone else’s chesbon.
The Gateshead kollel -surely one of the best in the world- always had a very strict admittance policy- not every person was accepted.Even then, the avreichim were supposed to find a job after a few years. I know first hand that in slobodka of the old world, the avreichim were supported for a maximum of five years but then they had to go out and find a job.
This is what is the right way. The best- metzuyonim- should be supported for a limited amount of time and then find a position. This would free the money of the tsibbur for the new arrivals and it would also mean that the avreichim give back to the klal what they received.
Today- though- unfortunately, in Eretz Ysroel especially, it has become the way of life for tens of thousands of avreichim.
“lo zu hi haderech’. It puts tremendous burden on the tsibbur and on the wives. It perpetuates a lifestyle of not giving back to the tsibbur and it keeps idle a tremendous amount of potential in every sphere of life.
Not every person is cut out to be a rov or as rosh yeshiva-some of these avreichim would be fantastic in secular pursuits. I know firsthand tremendous attorneys and accountants who are bnai torah and contribute much more to klal ysroel now than if they were kollel yungeleit. This is how a society thrives- there are people of all kinds and all professions and together they can built a real Torah world.
On to the question of army duty. It is interesting that not one chassidische rebbe has joined all these protests. Their silence is deafening and for a good reason- they understand that not everyone should learn forever and that most of their chassidim must make a living. They are quite prepared to compromise and this was my whole comment on this situation.
Clearly, to me, the present situation is untenable- and has been for a long time. You can see from the discussions that the other side is prepared to compromise too- hence it is totally counter productive to issue wild accusations of “shaas hashmad’ ‘ they want to destroy torah’ etc…nothing is further from the truth. A large part of the chiloni world wants to live in harmony but there are limits to every endeavor. keep in mind the rambam’s “shvil hazohov”.
hope you change your mind about me, hello99.
choppy- health and all others “leminehem”: Have you ever considered the case of the dog that did not bark? or- for your ears- the deafening silence of any chassidische rebbe in this matter?? I have yet to see one word from one chasidsiche rebbe- and the reason is simple- they understand that there has to be some compromise here- because you cannot have a whole tsibbur that does not work. Thank g-d, the chassdim work and thrive, the others become parasites.
shlishi-just like chava imenu- you pile on things that are totally without foundation. I checked the whole of shulchan aruch (well, just kidding but you know what I mean) and I have yet to find one halacha that says that a state in EY is against halacha,prior to the advent of Moshiach.
health- why should the rest of the population be exempt from taxation All I said was that -if you’d stop the money, 90% of avreichim would leave kollel. Check The US- there are plenty of kolellim but the vast majority of chareidim have jobs- thank G-D!
nechomah- i checked the articles you mentioned. What you neglected to say is that the instance of women singing was not some cabaret evening or a kumzits- it was on very specific days- YOm Hashoa, Yom Hazikaron and Yom ha-atzmaut. The army- I would venture- does not want to discriminate against women (you may not like that but this is official policy) and for soldiers to have earplgs would cheapen the occasion. You also did not quote the article which said that the army would allow the soldiers to bring a prayer book -or Tehillim- and read from it during the event.It is not even clear if a woman singing kaddish comes under prohibition of kol isha.so, you are making a mountain from a molehall.
I have a suggestion: let NOT ONE AVREICH take a penny from the medinah and they will be free from serving. That’s it. Do whatever you want but don’t use my money to do it….let’s see how that will end….
choppy- do you know how many soldiers there are in IDF? Do you realize that what you said- once a month- is an infinitesimal time in the large scheme of an army of hundreds of thousands of people.Even you admit this is but ‘ the tip of the iceberg” . well- to make sure we don’t founder upon this iceberg , how about makings sure that the ones who lead the army respect the chareidim as they enlist in the army? It is scarcely “shaas hashmad’ …
nechoma- 10 articles in eight months means ONE article A MONTH!!Not exactly on the front burner of our concerns. You also did not say what those articles said. I only remember OoNE instance and that is the one you quoted. So, anfter all htis turbulence and all those accusations of “the army wants to make us secualr”, all you have come up with is ONE instance in ONE year ! Talking of trivial pursuiT!
health- your views are well known on this website but you acted like Chava imenu in exaggerating an issur and therefore all your views become suspect and invalid. you state that “ther halacha forbis a frum jew from joining because the force you to listen to kol isha”. the facts are very different.First of all, it is not even certain when kol isha is prohibited but even accepting the most radical interpretation- haven’t you followed the news? no one is forced to listen to kol isha and in the few isolated instances , the soldiers were excused.
You cannot use false facts to support your “shitta”
I thank zahavasdad for remembering Entebbe !!! Over one hundred jews were saved by the ISRAELI army. And Rav Hutner zz’l and the people of all three planes-that were indeed destroyed- were taken prisoner and ultimately the Jordanian army freed them- by force, when they launched Black september to destroy the Palestinians. There have been many cases of the ISRAELI army storming planes to free Jews (Barak led on of these raids) and the only reason why it was the Jordanians is because it was in Jordan and the Israelis relied upon the Jordanian army.
Lastly- to choppy- please look at the rambam (hilchos melochim, perek 5, mishne 1)and you will see that today’s army is absolutely busy doing a milchemes mitzvah- You show your ignorance by denying this.
to “choppy’ -rav hutner was saved- by the army!!!!
to ohr chodesh; look in the rambam- any war to save jews is a michemes mitzvah!!
to all: the mishne is clear; in a milcheme mitzvah (or chovah, according to the rambam) everyone has to go defend e jewish people!!- no exceptions- not even a chosson!
hr chodesh-you obvioulsy have forgotten (or never learned) the mishne about milchemes mitzvah and the halocho of it!
sam2- I checked the postings and indeed, you did notmake any comments so apologies for the inclusion.However, I am not sure the positions esposued here are just “political”.
retort to “choppy’ -as written a million times, your “gedolim’ are not my “gedolim”. you are free to follow them but we are all free to follow our gedolim!
This is a subject upon which there will never be accord- so I will avoid commenting on it, except to say that i side with Yichusdik,aviK ,sam 2 and others. But on one remark I have to answer because i shows the total ignorance of history. “Chppy” asks : “why didn’t Rabbi shimon be yochai, shammai, rashi, Rambam, the chasam sofer, the chofetz chaim not need an army?”.
Does the poster not know about the Holocaust and the Russian pogroms? in the chofetz chaim’s times, a Jewish army would have been very useful. Does he not know about the killings of jews in the time of the Crusades? Rashi could have used a jewish army at that time…And there actually was a jewish army in the time of R”shimon bar jochai- it was called the army of Bar Kochva- that Rabbi Akiva called the Moshiach. So, yes ,we always needed an army-except we could not have one- now that we are back in our Eretz Hakedosha- we have a Jewish army!
I should not even engage in this conversation as it is so old hat as to elicit a yawn…but I have to point out halachic misrepresentations- all you have to do is quote gemoro megillah 14a on the saying of hallel on any occasion that the jews are saved from destruction. Whether you like yom ha=atsmaut or not, you must be totally blind (you too, apokerma) to deny that the Jews of Eretz Yisroel were facing destruction in 1948.(and you cannot even use the answer that you don’t say hallel on a miracle in chutz lo-oretz!)
Secondly, it is totally ridiculous to deny that we celebrate the military victories. Have the critics even READ “bimei matishohu ben jochanan kohen godol”? Of course, we celebrate military victories! Have you ever read parshas Masai- the war on midian,parshas beshalach- the war on amolek? From time immemorial, we had armies and military victories that were celebrated (look in tenach).
thinking….we are in agreement on many things. Id’ love to have a more observant President= not for the ‘umos haolam’ but for us!!
Menachem Begin made a kiddush hashem because he would only eat kosher, would walk to shul and put o ntefillin daily. Zalman shazar was a wonderful President becuase he respected Rabbonim- he was a chabadnik. Even the -sadly disgraced- President Katsav was a better example for us. But- unfortunately, we are saddled with peres now.
thinking…..as I said in my earlier post- If religious jews of all stripes would be in Eretz Yisroel- you would have a religious President and a much better governemnt.As it is, we had a Chabadnik as President once (Zalman Shazar) and Rabbi Dr. Josef Burg a.h, wasd also considered for the post.
BTW- one does not have to agree with the Satmarer rebbe zz’l or even rav Shach zz’l and still be a frum jew !
to thinkingverydeeply: maybe you are right that we would all wish that someone else-not peres- would represent us in the world. so, how do we correct this? like the neturei karta- disassociating oneself from the medinah- and losing the battle and the war- or do we do like the agudah and the religious zionists who strive ,every day, to make the medinah better?I know where I stand.
sam2 and yitai- it is “maaseh bechol jom’ that many minyainim daven mincha and maariv together after plag(including shabbos)- because ,as you write, one cannot gather people for a minyan gain.I am not sure I would call this “bedieved’- we are talking about a zibbur- which has many kulos.
sam2- you are absolutely correct. Nowhere does the Shulcan Aruch- much less the Mishnei berurah- say anything about “two covers’ on the head.(Siman 2 and siman 91) I truly don’t know where this idea comes from.
chilled- the mishne berurah brings down the words of the chaya odo but he is talking about ONE cover, not two. (that cover, they say, shoulds be a full hat, not a small hat, as you would walk in the streets)
Yitai- as I wrote. I was discussiing the term “kofer’ which means, “deny-er”and the quesiton was, what does one deny? After Sam2 pointing to the Rambam, it is clear that the Rambam-at least- considers someone a “kofer’ if he denies the origin of torah shebaal peh-misinai. I also said that i am pretty sure president peres is a classical “kofer’ in any case, because idobut he even accepts torah sh bi ksav -misinai.
All that said, to say that the world is older than 5762 may not be kefirah at all- as there is dispute, even amongst rishonim- how to interpret maaseh bereishis.
As far as our count- it comes from seder olam- a midrashic text and if you look carefully, you will see that signs of civilization started- virtually everywhere- about six thousand years ago.
sam2 (and mdd); Rambam, hilchos teshuvo ,perek 3, halocho 8, “shelosho hen hakofrim batorah”, look at the whole mishne and the kessef mishne, interpreting the gemoro in chelek. Indeed, according to to this mishne and the kessef mishne, to deny torah she baal peh will indeed be considered “kefirah”.
The question would be, are “divrei agggada” included in this? I would consider the dating of the calendar a matter of aggadah and, of course, this will revert to the old question, how much must we accept in aggadah, in contrast to halacha, where we are fully bound by precedents?
yitay- “the only thing you cannot do is to daven minchah and maariv between the plag and shkia”.
This view has taken hold in many quarters but, “bemechilas kovod toroscho- it is wrong . Look in shulchan aruch Siman 233, se-if 1, mishneh berurah se-if koton 11 concerning a “Zibbur’, when it is allowed.
mdd and yitai…- thanks for your comments.
As far as the Zedokkim and Karaites go- indeed, they did not believe in torah she baal peh while we certainly do- the question here is not the authority of torah she baal peh – this is self evident and I venture to say that every poster here believes in torah shebaal peh misinai- but is it “kefirah”? The word ‘kefirah’ has a narrow meaning and , usually, means to say that soemone does not believe in torah misinai. I daresay that president peres may be classified in this group but not because he spoke about “ten thousand years “.
As far as yitay-‘s comments- I will check the rambam in chelek -although you do know that the “pirush hamisnayos” was written in arabic, with many inconsistencies in its translations.
I checked the thirteen ‘ani maamin’s” and it is ambiguous whether the belief in “torah she baal peh misinai” is one of the thirteen “ani maamin”s. It speaks about “torah Ha’ metuzyoh bejodeninu” – without specifying whether it incldues torah she baal peh.Clearly, the dating of the world is from “seder shenos olam”-a midrashic text.
in any case, spekaing about “ten thousand years’ is not ‘a priori’ kefirah in anything.
May I also pointo ut that nost of the posters probably confuse the last two “ani maamin’s and merge them into one to the detriment of logical thought.
jbaldy22- thanks for the acknowledgment.It is an important distinction because a number of jewish singers today (many chareidim) have used “outside” tunes and set them to hebrew verses. Obviously, they will not be barred from the “Amud’ !
Itchesrulik: As far as I know, the only “piyut’ that may be sung as per an old non-Jewish tune is “Maoz Tsur” on chanukkah.
I have no knoweldge of “church music’ being used elsewhere.
baalsechel and jbaldy keep on talking about a chazzan singing “inappropriate songs”, leaving this term unexplained. I have to correct them-as I did in an earlier posting-because it is not just ‘inappropriate songs” but -very specifically- songs that are sung in ‘their temples for avoida zoroh’- this is from the mogen avrohom and fully supported by the “Be’er heitiv’ and the mishne berurah.
The term is “shirei agovim’ not just “shirei chol”. This is a crucial difference and I don’t want people to infer that just singing something that is not fully accepted can be the basis for the same halocho.
I checked the poster’s link to hebrew books and I read the teshuvah by the Debreciner Rov zzl. Indeed, the debreciner Rov is scathing about television and he considers it a terrible sin. However, when you check the “mareh mekomos” in the Shulchan Aruch (Orach Chaim 53, s’eif 25), you find that the reason to fire a baal tefilla is only for very serious aveiras- (relations with a non-jew or being a mosser). The debreciner Rov zzl may think that televsion is on the same level but I daresay that this might be extreme.
The halocho of firing a baal tefillah who sings “shirei agovim” means very specifically that he sings songs that are sung for avoidah zoroh and that he sings them exactly as the do their places of worship. (think georgian chant for kedusha….)
To emulate the Debreciner Rov zzl , you have to assume that whole generations of good jews are possul…..not likely to happen!
Allow me to posit a question:
WHY would having a TV disqualify anyone from being a shaliach zibbur ,or anything else for that matter? yes, of course I know that the Rabbonim are against having a TV, but what is the actual aveirah? Same with unfiltered internet. It certainly is an eitzah tovah but an aveira?
naysberg:
If you don’t have a ‘mareh mokom” (source) then why would we accept what you are saying?
A couple of comments.
To “nishtdaingesheft” : If you accept that artificial insemination is like an actual relation, then there is no difference between that matter and the so-called get me’useh. The child of such insemination is a mamzer, as the woman receiving the treatment is married. I don’t remember whether the satmarer Rov zz’l said that the child is a mamzer but I do remember that every chassidische rov in the US argued with R’Moshe zz’l, yet, R’moshe’s opinion became accepted.
to zahavsdad: ‘in chareidi circles there are no agunas” You are kidding, right?
To all, the gemoro has various instances where you beat the husband ‘at shejomar rotzeh ani” (I want to do it !) and the get is a good get. There were many Poskim in the US who accepted the pre-nup and, as far as I know, the Israeli Poskim were “choizer’ – changed their opinion – that it was a get me’uesh when they heard the details. Today, i don’t beleive that tehre is a serious Possek who disagrees swith the pre-nup.
naysberg: You ignore the elephant in the room: the refusal of husbands to give their wives a get and trying to extort money from the girl’s family. This has become a major problem (probably always has been). the present prenups are primarily made for this purpose. It has also been conclusively accepted that it is NOT a “get me-useh’. By the way, there are other instances in halacha where the husband is forced to give a get and we say : “at shejomar rotzeh ani”.
In the secular society, a “prenup’ generally is a document to preserve one side’s finances in case of a divorce (to discourage people marrying for money and trying to “cash’ in in case of a divorce).
As far as I know- the so-called “prenup’ that is being discussed here is a document that binds chosson and kallah to bring their differences in front of a bais din when the marriage has irrevocably broken down. It was introduced some years ago to prevent the case of agunos- when the husband is holding up the get -generally to extort money.
It was drafted by many Poskim and ,at the outset, there was opposition by some Poskim as it may be a ‘get me-usah” (a get that the husbsnd was forced to give). However, after reviewing the document that was in question, most Poskim concluded that it is NOT a “get me-usah” and , as mentioned by many, is being used in a number of marriages.
In view of the problem of agunot- a serious problem, by the way- one should not criticize Rabbonim that insist on having this document.
janedoe18: they were alive when YCT was founded (1999) ?
I join my voice to the ones who celebrate jom jerushalaim.I am convinced that when Moshaich comes, avhaben and apukerma will object to his coming and ignore him because he would be religious zionist- G-d forbid, they will say, we cannot be pasrt of this new “nisayon” from HKBH. We have to wait till ….what?
sadly, I must concur with ANONANO….nothing will change….
janedoe18- that is the question. who decided that it is against halacha?
i have absolutely no desire to start a thread on YCT or even conservative Jewry. Mu point is simple ; you are ‘moitzi shem ra’ on jews.Unless you can bring some proof (not just say- “I do”) then I would suggest you refrain from speaking loshon horah and being”motzi shme ra’. There is no “hetter’ to do this, regardless of the way you clothe it.
popa-bar-abba- do you have any indication that what i wrote is wrong? just because you call someone ‘conservative’ doesn’t make it so.