rabbiofberlin

I try to avd getting entangled in matters that people have very set positions but the chatter over the past days have impelled me to add the following: All the “reasons’ given for women not wearing pants are after the fact, in other words, they try to justify an issur and it has nothing to do with beged ish. The plain facts are the following: if the pants are made for women, there is no beged ish problem involved. As far as all the other reasons- please look into the Bach (I would hope that the Bach is enough of a possek for some of you…) and he discusses women wearing pants on cold days in the market and he allows them!! so, please, if you can’t accept the Bach,say so. All that said- btw- clearly there should be an element of Tsenius even when wearing pants.

curiosity- yes,I meant “ani maamim be-emunah shleimah”. if you didn’t know, this song is the de facto national anthem of agudas yisroel for decades. Not wanting to sing the Hatikva, the agudah chose this song as its anthem. So, although it is one of the 13 ikrim ,it is still an anthem.

mommamia22- thanks ! and read “my other opinion” he/she hit it right on the head.

I think that there is a lot of loshon horah said here about the Upper West Side. It is a vibrant place for many thousands of jews, there are shtieblech and mikves and there are places for every one. To say that by moving to the UWS, one sheds one’s religion is ridiculous. If anyone goes “off the derech’ it has more to do with someone’s own inclinations than with the UWS.

BTW- wearing jeans (to MorahRach) is not the worst thing to happen to someone,albeit it is a kulah that will not be acceptable in Boro park.

Witht going into too great detail, “psik reisha” means that the result of the action is inevitable- when you cut a head of something living, it will die ,for sure. Here, the fact of opening the door is not the direct cause of the airconditoner working(heat in the winter) starting- there are a myriad other reasons- people ni the room, the hot weather, doors opening from other rooms, etc,,,,hence, it is “dovor she-ein miskaven’ and not a “psik reisha”.

I would submit that it also “lo nichei lei’ because he doesn’t want the action of the door opening (the airconditioner starting)as a result of his action.

The Civil War was the most murderous war for Americans, whether on american soil or elsewhere. I pfefer to accept that the C.C. never said such an obvious mistake.

First of all, it is “dovor she-eino miskaven’- something that you don’t intend doing- and we pasken that this is muttor. Because it is a very temporary event- opening a door or a window- it is not a “psik reishe’. Evne if it you want to say that it is a “psik reishe”, it is ‘lo niche lei’ (he does not want the intended result) and we pasken like the aruch that allows “psik reishe” if it is ‘lo niche lei”

For your information: shulchan aruch orahc chaim ,siman 47, se’if 14:”Noshim mevorchot birchas hatorah” -women have to make the brocho on the torah” says the biur halocho (in the name of the mogen avrohom); because they have to learn the halochos that pertain to them.

The fact that women should learn their halochos means that- to some extent- they learn torah shebaal peh.

The Shulchan aruch in joreh deah repeats the rambam’s wording. However, a number of Poskim (see the drisha,as sam2 pointed out) allow women to learn. there is no inherent issur-just an understadning that their mental ability does not empower them.(I am not entering into a feminist versus anti-feminsit debate)

I sure don’ve any guilty consceince but, as we are just a day before tish be-av, I’ll wait till next week for serious comments.

yichusdik- I could not have said it better- even if I tried!

Chareidim who have little contact with non-religious people don’t realize that the non-religious could not care less what the chareidm do- as long as it does not infringe on their way of life. Right now, in Israel, we are at a point that the genral tsibbur feels that the present system infirnges on their lives- with the money given to avreichim, with political deals in the hands of a minority and with the blatant (in their eyes) avoidance of army duty by so many.

I still beleive that a compromise will be worked out and that all the talk about “shmad”, “wanting to eradicate torah” will subside and the political dialogue will return to more mundane matters like…Iran, war, terrorism….

chocandpatience – I have to preface my comments with the following: When anyone says that the gedolim “erred”, we are not talking about halacha. The possuk “lo sossur” deals with halachic items.In that context, a Possek is always right in what he says. When people question some ideas or decisions of Gedolim, it is in “milei de-alma”- matters that are not relevant halachically.

The words and opinions that came from gedolim before the Holocaust had nothing to do with halacha. It had to do with their impression of the world. In that, they erred in not recognizing the danger of Nazism.They are not nevi-im and no one puts blame on them- it is just that in their decision making, they were incorrect.

As far as your second question- the fact is that the Germans did not reach Palestine in the war and the people who emigrated before the war were saved.To say- as you imply- that the Germans could have been in Palestine and endangered the jews there is pure speculation.We can only deal with facts and the fact is that The germans did not reach Palestine.

Your last question deals with matters of deep spiritual significance- If, as we believe, HKBH directs the whole of the world, how could he have allowed gthe Holocaust? if you answer that there was a “hester ponim”, then you must also accept that the foundation of the medinah is also ‘min hashomaim”.

We cannot fathom HKBH’s intentions and all we can do is try to act as we understand and as we see in the world around us.

As I said many times…..history will judge who was right….I will keep to my beliefs and HaKatan (alias Joseph?) will keep to his…

daasyochid: actually, youn are wrong. there are plenty of boys who are still not married. Alternatively- the families go into major “hock’ to the boy,regardless whether they deserve it.

daasjochid,popa: We are talking at crosspurposes: Of course, R’Moshe knew the (well-known) gemoro in berochos and there are some (isolated) places where you find that talmidei chachomim left their wives to fend for themselves (I think gittin 6a too)and the gemoro in berochos said as much-that many tried to learn and not work- and they did not succeed because one has to make a living and you cannot (should not!)rely uopn tsedakah or miracles.This view prevailed through gemoro times (most amoraim were business people), throughout the geonim’s time and well into the rishonim’s time (rashi was a wine merchant). For whatever reason, as the rishonim’s time ended, it became difficult for a talmid chcohom to concentrate on torah and work. Hence, the kessef mishne and later acharonim, who allowed people to take money for their learning-mainly rabbonim,Poskim and melamdim- so as to be able to live. But this did not mean that every person should throw off the “chyiuv’ of working and feeding his family (see the kessubah, see mishpotim). It only meant that some people could take money for their learning,unlike the rambam.

This approach survived for hundreds of years. Of course, plenty of talmidei chachomim were subsidized by their families and their in’laws, at times maybe even from the “kuppas ho-ir” (see asoroh batlonim) but it WAS NOT A BLANKET POLICY FOR EVERYONE.

Enter the late twentieth century and suddenly, every person has to learn and learn forever. Now, that is a radical departure from the past! This is at the center of my argument in the critique of the way kollels (and yeshivas) operate today.And, for our sins, in Eretz Yisroel, this has become a way of life- the army induction unfortunately gave many the excuse of lounging around and taking money frm the klal.

As I said, I favor a complete amnesty for all kollel people- and an end to their financing from the government. let them all go out and be productive. let some remain in kollel- the ones who deserve it and let these ones stay fore a while before going out and doing “meleches hakodesh”. The financial benefit from all of this would be huge- the municipalities would have more money, the ones who would be able to go out and work properly would become financially independent, the wives would not have to go out and work , the ones who would stay in kollel would get more money and live normally…etc…

Once that is accepted, one can turn to the question of army service- or any other national service. I am confident that a compromise can then be found. But, until the chareidim insist on everyone being exempt and receiving stipends, we are at an impasse.

ok- I had it right the first time- it is berochos 35b.

“Said Abaye- many tried to do it like R’Yishmoel [to work and learn] and they succeeded, many tried to do it like R’Shimon be jochai [to learn and not to work] and did not succeed”

Said Rovo to the rabbonon [his talmidim] :do not appear before me in the days of nissan and tishrei [days when they could get work] so that you should npt be worried about your “parnossoh’ all the time.”

Look at the whole sugya and you will see that the gemoro understood that one ultimately had to work to be able to learn properly.

We can only conduct a conversation if facts are accepted as facts.

choppy- the gemoro in kiddushin (actually a mishneh)still says that it is a daas jochid. Every other tanah has a different view. Plus- the gemoro in berachos 35b quite obviously does not agree with R’Nehoroi or you.

Secondly, what halocho did R’Moshe “pasken'(that I have not accepted)? All he said was that it is allowed to take money for learning- or studying, if you want to expand the envelope. Again, until this generation , no one ever said that everyone should be in kollel. Quiet the contrary. And- if the arrangment is indeed yissoschor and zevulun, then what are we arguing about ? The fact is that the vast majority of jungeleit in israel receive a stipend from the government and this is at the center of the argument.

You may want to increase the number of yungeleit and I said- many times- “gezunterheit”- but don’t tax the rest fo the population for this.

Lastly, if you felt insulted by not being caleld an adult, my apologies and -as it is av- ask for mechilah on that ‘chet”

daasyochid and hello99- from our discussions in recent days, we are actually much closer in thought that you think.

I said, in an earlier posting, that few people argue that NO ONE should be paid for learning, nothwithstanding the Rambam. The Poskim after him (and you are quoting many of them) agreed that, “bizman hazeh’, in our days, Rabbonim, melamdim and other klei kodesh can receive money for teaching Torah (schar batoloh or any other explanation).Actually -to hello99- what the Ridvaz is doing is a very simple thing- how do you reconcile the rambam in hilchos talmud torah and hilchos shemitta ? (it is an axiom of halacha that we try to minimize the machlokes, if possible, and certainly to harmonize some inner contradiction).So, the Ridvaz explains that the Rambam clearly approves of people dedicating themselves to Torah, BUT- says the Ridvaz, this only is allowed if he does NOT receive money from zedakah- and so ,there is no contradiction in the Rambam.This is the only way that you can reconcile the Rambam in both his piskei halocho. (I am not sure what your mention of terumos umaaasros is. Surely, the Yisraelim cannot eat terumo?)

Now, we come to the Remo and the Shach- both quoting extensively from the Kessef Mishne. IF you learn the whole Remo and the Shach, it is clear that they are talking about Rabbonim, Poskim and melamdim. As a matter of fact, if you learn the whole Kessef Mishne, it is crystal clear this is what they are talking about. The kessef Mishne goes to extreme lengths to describe the kind of talmidei chachomim that CAN take money from the tsibbur- and he mentions Poskim, Melamdim and Rabbonim.

Nowhere does it say that any person can take money from the tsibbur indiscriminately. And this is the crux of the difference between those (like me) who are critical of the kollel system today and those (maybe like you) who assume that everyone can do this.

Throughout our history, there were always a number of people who received their expenses from someone else while learning ,either from family or father-in-law- or the “kuppah’ of the town. However, these people were selected carefully and it was always for a certain period of time until they assumed rabbinical positions.Today- especially in Israel- this system has broken down because a large part of those who are in kollel should not be there. The financial situation makes this a precarious position. This is essentially the position I espouse.

As far as the army is concerned, it is actually a separate discussion. However, my point was in some of my postings that if you would stop all stipends to the mass of the kollels, the vast majority would leave the kollel to earn a living and I would even go so far as to give all the kollel jungeleit a blanket exemption, so that we can start with a clean slate.

and-hello99- I do not believe that all of the people who oppose the blanket exemption from the army are all intent on eradicating Torah.Many are well meaning, both for the country AND for the jungeleit, many of whom would fare much better outside of kollel. We haven’t even touched upon the issue of women working , of girsl unable to get a shidduch, of the loss of capable people in other spheres…..etc…

Quick answer to 557- if i remember , the chachomim said “torah lo bashomayim hih”-mesning that r’eliezer’s views had to stand against the chachomim and- as you note- the rabbim won. My point was that infallibity is not part of the talmudic lexicon, even if the heavens support you. Same today- no chacham has infallibility-not in matters of halacha and certainly not in matters of “milei de’alma”.

to mdd- from 1933 onwards, jews in europe knew that matters were very dangerous. after 1838 and certainly after the evian conference in that year, every jew knew that matters were desperate. yet- the rabbonim in poland and hungary continued to advise jews not to leave europe- whether to the US or to israel. Please note that I am not accusing the chachmim of that dor of anything- they acted according to their beleifs- but ,clearly, it puts to rest the idea thast chachomim and gedolim are infallible.They are not.

Totally wrong- the pipes are not reshus horabbim by any stretch- they are- at most- a mokom petur and hence the person who told you this “minhag” should look into more carefully.

wow- I am not sure that I want to enter this discussion- but I’d

like to ask ohr chodesh specifically and the others who think like him- do you truly believe that every word of a Rov is infallible? No one can make a mistake? Moshe rabbeinu, dovid hamelech, rabbi Akiva, the ones who oppose ther Rambam, the rabbonim who supported Shabsai zvi(there were many!), the followers of the Gro who put all chassidim in cherem….the list is long…our faith does NOT accept infallibility and does not even accept a sign from heavens ! (R’Eliezer did not win his debate with the chachomim….in spite of shomayim being on his side !)It is up to us- as human beings- to evaluate our chachomim. Even in halacha, there is no infallibity, let alone in “milei de’alma”.

I don’t want to re-fight the arguments about the Holocaust and the medinah- but clearly, the gedolim who directly dissuaded people in Europe to flee were wrong, and the gedolim who continue to fight the medina will end up on the wrong side of history. (they already are) ‘Ein tsaddik bo-oretz asher lo jechto”

Daasyochid: I think that you misunderstand me and many of us who have qualms about the way kollelim are organized. We all understand that there are individuals who should consecrate their energies and lives to Torah so as to become the Poskim and the Manhigim.We all understand that these people should be helped by the tsibbur (not unlike asoroh batlonim). I am sure you know that throughout the centuries, wealthy jews always took as their sons-in law talmidei chachomim and helped them for years to study. (until they got a position, by the way). What people object to today is the blanket acceptance that everone should learn in a kollel “le-olam vo-ed”. THAT- for sure- was never the case and that, for sure, will bankrupt us. Take selected individuals- help them for a number of years and to that, no one would object.

The teshuva from R’Moshe zz’l does not address this at all, He is commenting on the Rambam ,who abhorred taking money for Torah, and the Piskei halocho in later generations that allowed this for Rabbonim and melamdim . R’Moshe zz”l himself never stayed in kollel for years- he was Rov of Lubian at age 22 (I think) !

As fsr as MK’s and knesset- this will inevitably be part of the compromise-that some people will be exmpt from army duty (say,after a number of kids or years) and allow them to enter the job market. Finaces will clearly be curtailed and we will see then how the chareidi olam will react. I venture to say that the chassidische olam will accept it…and the yeshivishe olam? who knows…

choppy- in answer to your question- YES~! dying for the jewish people makes them kedoshim.

mdd- all i said was that- in spite of the possuk telling us that nodov ve-avihu died for their sins (see Baal Haturim and other meforshim) Moshe Rabbeinu called them kedoshim (bikroiva EKODESH) what is good for Moshe Rabbeinu is good for me. You can probably find other situations where people with sins die al kiddush hashem

Check sefer Vayikro and the death of Nodov Ve-avihu- inspite of the possuk saying they died because of ‘aish zoroh”, Moshe rabbeinu said’ :”Bikrovay ekodesh”. if it is good enough for Moshe rasbbeinu , it is good enough for me.

and to choppy- the Remo and the Sahch that you are referring to is in hilchos talmud torah siman 246, se-if 21. As a matter of fact , if yo ulearn the Remlo properly and the shach,yo uwill see that they totally support my ivew on this. It is a long Remo and a long Shach and you’ll need some patience to learn through all of this.

“The Mary Tyler Moore Show”–hmmm…what is this, wolf? You mean…YOU MEAN…..YOU MEAN!!!!!! that you have a ……oy vey !