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vochindik: nothing in your eyes and in the eyes of those who hate the medinah will convince you of the justification of the medinah, so i won’t even try.
I will,however,say that if you would have just one thousandth of Rav Shlomo Goren”s zz’l knowledge , you would be a rosh yeshiva.
shlishi- RSR HIRSCH died in 1888-enough said!
mogold: the first three gedolim that you mentioned died before or during the Holocaust(reb Elchonon) , so we cannot know what their views might have been- see Rav Teichtal zz’l who changed his mind, see the vishnitzer rebbe, the gerrer rebbe , even the belzer rebbe and more who lived and embraced the medinah (not the policies, just the fact of medinat yisroel). Only the Brisker rov zz’l lived during the medinah days and I have yet to heasr that he espoused the satmarer rebbe’s shittah that Medinas Yisroel should be dismantled. Please supply writings to that effect.
shraga18- If you have followed my postings, you will have seen that I appreciate the satmarer shittah snd if you want to follow it- so be it. For me, and for many other millions of yidden, that shitta is not the correct one. I have said many,many times that only history will prove who is right.
feifun- well, you sure have accomplished one thing; you made me laugh uproariously at your mischievous attempt to emulate shlomo!
mammele-thanks for your posting.
It is not a question of “being enthralled”- it is a question of the truth and loshon horah (and motzi shem ra and rechilus). Shlomo zz’l clearly had his faults but(at least for me), his qualities and achievements, his influence and “chessed’ (attested by every one!) far outweigh his sins. I do not put much faith on some of the more lurid accusations.
Now, I am only a plain jew and I have no idea how they treat him in the heavens (please note that the gemoro has stories that sinners , when doing just one great thing, go straight to gan eden)but my point was that , if indeed he was considered a sinner “bashomayim”, how can his influence and nussach spread so widely? I do believe that everything is “min hashomayim”- if you deny that ,then you deny one of the “Ikrei hadas”-foundations of faith. See the first Ani maamin !
And yes, the fact that the greeks had a great civilization was allowed by HKBH and the fact that “achar” became “achar” did not diminish his Torah and influence on R’Meir (see gemoro-taking the good and rejecting the bad).
The question is not whether anyhting in this world is “min hasomyaim”- it must be, otherwise, we are all “kofrim” by denying HKBH’s direction. We CAN ask why? why was there a Holocaust? (rachmono litzlon), Why was greece so succesful? Why is there a medinah? Those are legitimate questions and some have no answers (Holocaust) but you just cannot say that something is “koach hasoton” and decide that HKBH had no input. THAT is Kefirah!
wolfish: see the beginning of the thread and the LETTER attested to by yoshchayal. the letter clearly refutes the supposed words sadi by Rav Bloch to the satmarer rebbe at a shiur in telz. mogold told us two stories- one that supports the letter and the other- from a very private soruce- that seems to conflict with vthe first story. so, I put my trust in written letters and in OPEN meetings (as told by mogold)
I only used the ‘ede mipi ed’ as a parable.
jsh31- can you explain what you mean? what has changed?
Sam2=you must learn not to trust anyone or anything unless you see it in swritten form. When you get me the “book’ where he said that, I’ll beleive you. For now, I will trust my own eyes and ears of many years that Inever,ever heard such a thing.
health- shlomo carlebach had a beard his whole life and never touched it.
kozov-I know the store owner and I also know what he thought of shlomo. why don’t you ask him his view on shlomo?
2scents-you are joking, right? no molestation by “frum” jews?? is this another attempt at sweeping that criminal and immoral behavior under the carpet?for the record, I am not bashing anyone-just responding to bashing another jew.
I acknowledged what you say about women and I have you an answer, please read.
sam2_ please see Popa’s most recent posting……qued es demonstratum.
Yichusdik: “The testimony of his behavior…..seesm straightforward and overwhelming and is available for anyone to research…”
I must again protest the hearsay aspect of this. There is absolutely no hard evidence of this at all. This has been a vendetta pursued by a very small handful of women for their own purposes.
There is a lot more evidence of male child molestation by many frum jews and yet, everyone in power refuses to pursue this and sweeps all this under the carpet.
Forgive me if I take the allegations against shlomo with a large soupspoon of salt. I knew him well and never saw him do what you allege.
wolfish-forgive me for disagreeing with you. When I have an actual written letter (as witnessed by Yoshchayal), you cannot refute it by some nebulous stories-especially if the first story supports the letter!
Was there anyone there that can attest to what R’Meir Bloch said to the satmarer rebbe when he was in the yeshiva? On the one hand, I have a written letter, I have an open speech before many rabbonim and on the other hand, all I have are a few words said privately. Maybe R’Elyeh just wanted to show the rebbe kovod but did not agree with his views.That was my point.
yosh- the two earlier postings show you why moshiach has not come yet…the disunity of frum jews!
I, on the contrary, agree with you wholeheartedly!
mogold- “ed mipi ed mipi ed mipi ed……..” too many “i heard”…
sam2-I have respect for your postings but I must correct you on some of your assertions. Shlomo was never, ever involved in drugs. That is a lie. Please correct this.
Now, I don’t know who your rebbe was that said that but think for one moment- if shlomo zz’l would have been such a bad person and such a sinner, do you think that today ,there would such a big following in niggunim,in nussach and even in loving every jew? Don’t you think that ‘min hashomayim’ they would have prevented that?
In your postings, you assert that the establishment of the medinah was an act of HKBH (to which I concur) , in spite of all the faults and difficulties. Why not think the same of Shlomo’s legacy in music? Do you know anyone else in the musical world over the past two centuries who had as much influence???
popa-bar-abba-
interesting, you call me “rude” for calling your bluff but you are being “motzi shem ra” on hundreds of thousands of yidden- THAT is FINE!
you have a distorted view of yiddishkeit!
2scents- i know the seforim store owner that you refer to- and I don’t believe that shlomo ever did that to chassidische ladies.I don’t understand your reference to wikipedia.
to “twisted”: your loss in not staying during kabbolos shabbos…todasy, it is used in hundreds of shuls,including the “kossel”.
naftush- thank you for telling us about the kunterus.
R”elijahu Kitov (orignal name Tikushinsky, I think) wrote a marvelous sefer (Hatodoah) and understood that the medinah had its wonderful aspects and its dark components. He was drummed out of the chareidi world in those days because of what he wrote.
Incidentally, R” Shlomo Zevin zz’l ,who wrote the seminal sefer “Hamoadim behalocho” writes (under the heading, the churban,under “The fast days”): “it is logical,that with the freeing of the towns of jehudah from the rule of the Goyim and the establishment of the medinat israel-“Ashreinu Shezuchino lekach”- the din of tearing one’s clothing on these towns has lapsed.”
So, many gedolim saw the establishments of the medinah as a sign from HKBH-0 as indeed it is.
popa-bar-abba-
you write : “amazing how simply noting a fact has put me outside civil discourse”. Fact?
Do you have ANY study or polling to support this assertion ‘that frum jews all over the world are petrified to be citizens” ? that “because they will be forced into an army which tries to make them break halacha”?
if you don’t see the nefarious attitude in these passages, then your ignorance of english is even more glaring.
two answers:
to feif un:
First, shlomo carlebach received smicha, as far as I know, so whatever his sins (if any) he is a Rabbi. You do not have to agree with this, but semicha gives you the right to be called a Rabbi and therefore Shlomo Carlebach was indeed a rabbi.
Second- I was not there forty years ago, so what you are saying about your cousin may or may not be true. Halachically, it is even beyond “ed mipi ed”. I wrote that ,indeed, Shlomo Carlebach hugged women (more of that later)but how you wrote about it is beyond disapproval.
to avhaben: I am not going into the debate of “kirvus le’aryos” because there are different shittas out there on that. Shlomo’s argument (and he said that many times) about hugging everyone he came into contact with (men and women) was based on the gemoro of saving a woman drowning. the gemoro says that if someone says: “I cannot jump into the water to save her because I can’t touch her” he is a “chossid shotteh”,(a stupid chossid) thereby saying clearly that you cannot use an esoteric reason when someone is dying and you must save him/her to avoid saving her.
Shlomo said that this gemoro is talking about physical danger, the person (woman) is drowning in the physical world and we must save her,regardless of the problem of being in physical contact with a woman. Today, there are thousands of people-including women- who are drowning in the spiritual world and we must do all we can to save them. If this includes putting aside the question of “negiah’, then so be it. Saving the person (woman) from spiritual drowning supersedes this, based on the gemoro.
You don’t have to accept this reasoning and ,indeed, many people have been able to bring back jews without this approach but it is a rational approach and shlomo used his approach to save thousands of jews- all singlehandedly.
His influence on the Jewish people cannot be underestimated.
feif un: the most egregious thing you wrote comes at the end: “he encouraged others to do so as well”. Do you have a scintilla of evidence on that? This is pure rechilus (worse than loshon horah). Secodly, you write: “”he encouraged mixed dancing” ,This is absolutely false and again, pure rechilus. And what is the “chet’ of performing with non-Jewish singers? Bob dylan is JEWISH, by the way.
To say ‘the things he did with women is well known” is more rechilus. I am absolutely astounded at what you wrote.
About the only thing that you can hang your hat on is that “he used to hug and kiss women he didn’t know” He did do that and he was criticized for it, although he had a good reason (for another time).
The fact is that he was responsible, single handedly, for thousands of baalei teshuva (many of which I know personally), he revolutionized jewish music and today, his music (kabbolos shabbos and more) is sung by tens of thousands of jews all over the world- and “shaar haneginah’ is right next to ‘shaar hateshuva”.
His influence on jewish life and people in the latter half of the twentieth century is beyond measure and his influence will continue for generations.
popa-bar-abba; I am debating whether your mastery of English is so poor that you don’t even know what you wrote(examples: “petrified”,”forced”, “afraid of being citizens”) and you would absolved of my critical comments or you actually meant what you write and hence, your denial would be disingenuous.
popa-bar-abba- you are lucky that you were not alive during the Holocaust years or right after that….you would have sung a different tune. It is outrageous for you and other people today to criticize from your comfortable chairs in the US of what tens of thousands of frum jews built after the terrible catastrophe of the Holocaust, IN THE MEDINAH ! With your remarks, and the remarks of some others on this, you have put yourself outside of any civil discourse on this.
I had decided not to respond anymore to the rants of “health”, as they are so outlandish and they make a caricature of anything holy . But my name was mentioned in reference to “kibbutz goluyos”, so I’ll answer it. I don’t know how you characterize a ‘savior’ (usually it is a person) but what has happened in the past hundred years in eretz ysroel clearly is “kibbutz goluyos”. Whether you like it or not, IT IS A HAVEN for jews from the whole world.
All of the posters are totally ignorant of the facts. Many chassidim do join the army after a few years. There is a clear difference between chassidim and the litvishe yeshivas. Chassidim are much more flexible with the medinah than some of the litvishe yeshivos. The reason is for another day.
yserbius- “chachomim hzharu bedivreichem”.
To write that ‘the whole of ikvesei demeshichei is an invention by some useful idiots’ puts you perilously close to be an “apikorus” with very serious consequences.. See mishne “Kol yisroel” in Sanhedrin and the explanation what “Apikorus’ means. (mevazeh talmidei chachomim).There were , and are, plnety of Gedolim and Poskim – and not only the ones who lean towards Zionism- who consider that we are in the time of “ikvei demeshiche”.
dear “health”: The more you write comments, the more you expose yourself to ridicule. Just to save your pride, I think I’ll just ignore your opinions and views and regard them as a result of drinking too much havdalah wine.
I have that delicious view of “health” continuing to spout his improbable and eccentric views on Eretz Yisroel (I am being kind)for the next fifty years (I assume he is young) and grind his teeth as Eretz Yisroel (medinah and all) goes from strength to strength and continues to be the haven for Jews from all over the world , as the rest of the world slowly implodes…..fullfilling the Neviim’s vision of the return to Zion!
health-you are delusional in thinking that turkey can be “appointed’ as the overlord of Eretz Yisroel. The Turks were thrown out of then-Palestine in the First World War by the British and their allies, the Arabs. And what makes you think that the Turks will be “nice” to the jews? The Iranians ,under the Shah, were a haven for tolerance of the Jews -who were there for two and half thousand years!- and guess what happened….the mullahs took over and the vast majority of Persian Jews fled,because they were persecuted mercilessly.
Right now, the Turkish governement is going through the same convusions as Iran did a generation ago and it may only be a matter of time before it ,too, becomes, an Islamic republic. If you don’t beliive me, read some of the commentators on the present political situation of Turkey.
oy….. health is turning hinself into a pretzel, trying to justify some of his outrageous statements. Did health REALLY write that there is no mitzvah of “yishuv ho-oretz’ because there is a jewish medina there? His pretzel-like answer does not answer this. The fact is- FACT- that the Rishonim who hold that “yishuv ho-oretz” is a mitzvah d’oraisa (Ramban most prominently) would endorse today’s yishuv enthusiastically. Come to think of it, talmidie habaal shem tov ANd talmidei Hagro ,both, made alyah in dorves these past two and a half centuries.
As has been said ad nauseum, now that there is a medinah ,it would be absolutely outrageous to wish for its destruction. This is like asking for a third churban- chas vechollilo, with all its catastrophic results for six million jews. Time to shelve those pamphlets and work at making this medinah better and more yiddish.
Against my better judgment, I am making a comment on some of the posters here. it is useless to try convincing the likes of health ,vochindik and others who are trying hard to continue propagate the views R’joilish zz’l. However, it is right to correct facts. One of their arguments is that the jews lived without fear under the arabs (see mw13) and that all those persecutions were done by europeans (as if that matters). Well, some of you have quoted a short passage from igeres teiman as supporting the “sholosh shevuos’ argument.I read the whole igeres (rather lengthy) and what do you think the main subject of the igeres is ? ( 800 years ago…) persecution and forced conversion by moslems!! and this continued for many centuries- the jews (and all minorities) were considered “dhimmi”- foreigners, with all the problems it engendered. and ,right now, today,all minorities are persecuted mercilessly in afgahanistan, egypt, iraq, iran and others. so, please save us the view of benevolent, “nice’ moslems and the delusional idea that life under moslem rule would be idyllic!
Vochindik: You quote the Rambam (Igeres Teiman) and you quote a false-repeat-false translation. The actual words are quite different and nowhere does it say in the igeres (as you maintain) that ” He warned the jewish people not to do this”. I don’t know your source but mine has a completely different version- and it clearly says that the possuk from shlomo hamelech a’h is “bederech moshol” (as an example) and it also clearly says that HKBH will indeed bring us back from the golus and gather us from all over the world to bring us back to “levaker beheicholo”- to dwell in His palace. And- B’H, so it is !
2scents: “on the other hand,it had a direct result in the death of jewish people as well as has angered a lotof nations which has cost many Jewish lives”
The falsity of this comment is breathtaking. Hitler jm’s wrote his infamous book and incited his compatriots well before there was a jewish state or even a jewish homeland. His minions sure didn’t need any encouragements to kill jews. Stalin forced millions of jews to abandon their religion decades before there was a Jewish state…. and methinks that the nations did not need much encouragement to persecute the jews…see crusades, inquistion, pogroms….
health reminds me of the famous saying; “what do you believe, me or your own eyes?” Multiple people have posted telling him that many gedolim said explicitly that the sholosh shevuos lapsed centuries ago but he continues his mantra ‘”but the satmarer rebbe says they are still valid!”. It is totally useless to argue,except to point out the fallacies of his approach. All you can continue saying- in the face of rishonim, acharonim amd recent gedolim who disagree, “but the satmarer rebbe says they are valid!” good luck, health ,in trying to convince six million jews in eretz yisroel.
i think that health relishes these threas…it gives him some vicarious pleasure to be recognized by so many…even if his shitta is totally misleading…..
to greatest; please look up the Ramban in sefer hamitzvos (mitzvo 4 of the ramban) and see what he writes about eretz yisroel and our duty to conquer and defend it.
greatest (greatest what?) : see Josh31.
I see that no one was able to contradict my words about igeres teiman and the ramban in sefer hamitzvos. Interesting, when one actually provides real sources…the detractors of eretz yisroel fall silent….
to rebRY- :’Zionism and Judaism are two complete opposites”. WHY??
Healh-the fact that you are resorting to insults and invective shows how weak your case is. “divrei chachomim benachas nishmoim”.
Just to answer your questions- when i said that the number of minorities that have been killed by Islamists in recent decades (Iran, Iraq, lebanon, sudan, egypt…etc), I was showing that today- there is a virulent islam that kills all in its way- and this is what -chas vesholom- would happen to our brothers and sisters in eretz Yisroel in case islamists take over (believe me, it will not be turkey).
as far as psak- you are welcome to follow the satmarer rebbe but you cannot assert that he is the Possek that the world follows. It is not relevant whether the mizrachi has gedolim on its side (it has,) all you have to do is look at the belzer rebbe, vishnitzer rebbe, gerrer rebbe,klausenburger rebbe, mirrer roshei yeshiva, ponovez roshei yeshiva and many others that participate fully in eretz ysroel ,vote and do not wish- chas vesholom- the destruction of the medinah.
sam2, AviK and others- In another thread (the one about hatikvah) I mentione the Ramban in sefer hamitzvos.He absolutely believes that Eretz Yisroel has kedusah always and that it is great mitzvah to build eretz yisroel and to take it away from the gentiles. (Mitzvah 4 in the Ramban,s count after the Rambam)
Continuation of finding the sources mentioned by ‘vochindik”: I looked and read Igeres Teiman by the Rambam- and absolutely nowhere does he espouse the view propagated by “vochindik”. He quotes the sholosh shevuos all the way at the end- telling the jews that are persecuted to hold on to their belief because it is part of our destiny (to suffer from persecutions) and ends by saying that we wait for HKBH remembering us and bringing us back from Golus.That is about all. So- if you think that the events of the past century are a sign from HKBH to gather us from Golus- it fullfills the words of the Rambam. But nowhere does he mention the sholosh shevuos as an “issur” or even as something to follow.
Wel, as I said, “neise sefer venichzeh”- let us look at the sources. “vochindik’ brought down a number of sources to bolster his view about the “issur’ of conquering eretz Yisroel.Well, I have looked at one of these sources (haven’t had time yet to look at others) and this is the ‘megilas esther’ on the Ramban in sefer hamitzvos. ‘vochindik” didn’t give us the exact place so let me do it; it is in the part where the Ramban adds mitzvot that the Rambam did not quote and it is mitzvah 4- (in the Ramban’s count) and the megilas esther. What ‘vochindik’ conveniently ommitted is the Ramban himself- who clearly says that, even in our times, it is a mitzvah to settle Israel (Yishuv ho-oretz) and to take it from the gentiles. See the whole section.
On this- the “megilas esther” tries to explain why the Rambam did not count this as a mitzvah and, in his eyes, it is only “bizman hamikdosh” and “bijemos hamoshiach”. He does mention the gemoro in kesubos as a source. SO- the Rambam is silent on this, the Ramban is enthusiastic about this and ignores the gemoro in kesubos and the megilas esther -trying to understand the rambam- decides that it is not a mitzvah today. At best, we have a machlokes and the Ramban is good enough for me as a source.I’ll
try to research the other sources.
As I said in my earlier posting, why do I even bother?
I (and many others) are still waiting for an exact quotation that sholosh shevuos is halacha (nothwithstanding vochindik and his misleading sources).
As far as the satmarer rebbe saying it is “ossur’ and hence, we must all accept his words- since when do the words of one Possek obligate the whole world? He was daas jochid and remains daas jochid.
Lastly, living and protecting Eretz Yisroel may not be a picnic (to parapahrase mw13) but I’d rather put my faith and safety in the hands of jews anytime. The figures for the death and destruction of minorities in Arab lands dwarfs whatever happened in Eretz yisroel this past century.
I don’t know why I bother- it is as if we are speaking two languages-without translation- or live on different planets.
health- again- can you show me one- just one- sefer halacha that mentions the sholosh shevuos as psak halacha?
as far as your imaginary friends that we could just hand over the medinah- have you been following the world news these past -oh,thirty years- do you know what has been happening in every arab country with other minorities? the bahai and X-ians are murdered in iraq, the copts are persecuted in egypt, look what happened to the maronites in lebanon…and how about those wonderful turks taht you trust- cyprus is still divided, the X-ians in turkey feel very uneasy…
in short- it has nothing to do with the leaders of the medina- we are in a time when radical islam is ascendant and wants to purge purge itself of all minorities- so, thank you, but I will not trust six million jews to your good wishes and your imaginary friends.
englishman-health and all the others: you keep on fighting very old battles and have added little of substance. The facts on the ground are concrete- there is a medinah today- its dismantling would cause the death and exile of millions of jews and-unless we have chas vecholilo a third churban- is totally delusionary. To say-as you said- that the satmarer rebbe prayed for its “peaceful’ dissolution is a delusion and, to boot, a dangerous delusion. As far as R’Aaron zz’l and rav Shach zz’l ,I don’t believe for one moment that they prayed for the destruction of the medinah. Did they have major differences with the zionists? Of course, but this is why there are religious parties in the Knesset. Lastly, I still have not seen one mention of a “Psak halacha” by the Satmarer rebbe. The sholosh shevuos are not halacha.
health- your long excerpt from the satmarer rebbe’s sefer proves my point. At no time does he mention even one psak halacha. It is not halacha. Incidentally, what do you think would have happened if the jews did not defend themselves in the Six Day war??(mentioned in the excerpt).
shlishi- no one has ever denied the Torah greatness of the satmarer rebbe zz’l. (I wish that the chareidi world would show the same respect to rav kook zz’l but I am digressing). But so was Shammai and his talmidim, so was Rav Eliezer Hagodol, so was the Rambam, so was the Gro and thousands of other great Rabbonim and Poskim. This does not mean that we always listen to them in matters of halacha and conduct. Quite the contrary- see the chassidim in recent years, see the chachomin versus rav Eliezer in talmudic times and in many other instances.
The fact is irrefutable: the vast majority of Gedolim (even the ones mentioned) did not accept the extreme view of the Satmarer rebbe zz’l.
englishman : did you know that the satmarer rebbe zz’l told his chassidim to move out of eretz yisroel ,so as not to live under the evil “zionim”?
health; you must be mistaken- “vochindik’ did not show any halacha on this matter.
Just turned the computer on to find “vochindik”‘s long essay on the sholosh shevuos. He tries very valiantly to describe the “sholosh shevuos’ as halacha, from out-of-context excerpts of Igeres Teiman and the Maharal and others. All I know is that halacha is codified in the Rif, Mishnei Torah, the Tur, the Shulchan Aruch and nowhere,absolutely nowhere, is there even mention of the sholosh shevuos as being normative halacha. So, you ‘ll just have to forgive me if I take your sources very skeptically and will not take an aggadah as indicative how to interpret halacha.
Additonally, plenty of Poskim have demonstrated pretty conclusively that the sholosh shevuos have lapsed, for many reasons.
Lastly, and this brings the argument full circle, if it was such a big sin, why were the great bulk of jews who perished in the Holocaust just those jews who espoused the sholosh shevuos and those that ignored them (by moving to Eretz ysroel) were saved?
curiosity: I am burning the midnight oil after melava malka…
First of all, you cannot- CANNOT- use the sholosh shevuos as “halacha”. It is not mentioned in ANY of the Poskim, so whoever tells you that it is “halacha’ is plain wrong. It is aprt of aggadah and hence, it has less authenticity. Secondly, it does not say anything about “taking the land away from to build a state on it”. All it mentions is that “shelo jaalu bechomo”-they should not go up (to israel) with violence . This clearly was not the case as far as the medinah- it was given back to us by the Balfour declaration and the United nations resolution .
Lastly, the fact that it is “non-Torah observant’ (your words) is irrelevant- look at how the kingdoms of Jehuda and Yisroel were. Many of the kings were much worse than our present governemets in israel.
But all of the above is just a debating point- the medinah exists, more than six million live there and we must support them.
englishman- I Knew Rav Hutner better than you ever will. I know his articles in the jewish Observer- yet he still lived in eretz yesroel and never,ever,ever asked for its dissolution!!!! Neither were any of the other Gedolim you name. The argument about a medinash is don and buried. All the gedolim you mentioend voted in elections and supported all the chareidi parties. The medina is here and now, it is our duty to make it better.
to curiosity- please dont’ bring up the old chestnut about sholosh shevuos. Only The satmarer rebbe learns it that way. No one else did or does.