rabbiofberlin

feif un- Before passing judgment on what is an unbelievable davening, please attend the selichos and you may realize that ourv prayers to HKBH don’t necessarily need crying and you can reach a much higher “madreigah” when singing than crying. BTW- thsiis why chassidim sing in large parts of the davening.

vochindik : Lo sossur only applies to halachos, not to “milei d’alma”. Ironically, the halocho is contrary to what you are porposing. If you want to say that the gedolim you mention are now contradicting the halochos and we should follow them because of “lo sossur’, then say so.

On the other point, the discussion here was not about college- we can argue about this. The argument here is whether to ‘just learn Torah and always Torah” and do nothing else. On that, quite clearly, the many halochos from the gemoro onwards weigh prepodantly on the side of having a job and working.

May I point out that the chassidische rebbes, by and large, counsel their chassidim to have a job.

Harotze…..

It is useless to enter into a discussion with the attitude that you have, thast one can never question any word from a Godol. Sure, Rav Shteineman shelita knows the gemoro- sure he knows the mishne in kiddshin. Hoewever,has he- or any other Godol that espouses his views- give an adequate answer to the gemoro’s point?

Has anyone that you know explain where the chiyuv of teaching one’s son a profession disappear? (The shittah of Rav nehoroi is daas jochid and surely not lehalocho). Has anyone ever give you a good answer how you can avoid the obligations of the kessuboh?

What has changed that suddenly, in the last fifty years, we ignore everything that was halocho till now. Do you have any reasonable answer?

It gets very tiresome to continue hearing the protests of those who want to justify every single word of a Godol. At the risk of being called an ‘apikores” ( I can already hear toi…), the gemoro in berachos makes it very clear that to rely only upon learning Torah DOES NOT WORK! Add to that the words of the mishneh in kiddushin and you have an ironclad instruction by our chachomim that one must work in one’s life. Only people like R’ Shimon ben Yochai (berachos 35B)and R’Nehoroi(kiddushin) can do it but normal people – all us basically- should not rely on other people’s Tseddakah. All the achromin mentioned by Harotzeh…., the Bais Josef and others , allowed us to make our living as klai kodesh but a living one must make.

Today- if one must have secular education for working (and virtually all work today requires that) one cannot just say-don’t study it – because in such a way you condemn people to a life of poverty and living off tsedakkah.

shein- please,please check the gemoro berachos-currently the daf limmud- about someone whom you think made a sin in the day…you must accept that he made teshuvo- but you- not only don’t you accept that he may have made teshuvo- you imply falsely that he may have made a sin…this is outrageous and you should never think thast way again!what the messader kidusshin did was disgusting.

sam2-did the tanaim and amoroim have glasses??? At best, they were very expensive and unreliable, at worst no one had them. So, why do we insist that we use a microscope to see bugs? You do know that there are millions of bacteria eveywhere, on our skin, in our beds, on our food and those are visible with a nuclear microscope and yet we don’t think to go that far. where is the limit??

paul ryan hands down….

JewsagainstZionism.com ? Are they also the ones who give hand to our enemies the Palestinians and the Iranians? And therefore are actually under the heading of “rodef’

yenne2- how is israel-only getting more terrible ?please elucidate….

shmoel- wow! I knew that thet sefardim practiced yibum until fairly recently but are they still doing it??

mogold- thanks for your posting. I agree with you that jews of Hungarian descent have accepted the Chassam Sofer zz’l as their final halacha (many would not even walk into a shul with the bima at the front). My point was that when he said “chodosh ossur min hatorah” , it was a “horo-as sho-oh” because of the success of the Reform movement in those days. That was my point in mentioning the psak of R’moshe zz’l.You are certainly welcome to follow his Piskei halacha but the whole world is not Hungarian…

And yet, we do not know his views on a medinah.

As far as Rav Teichtal HY’D, I only pointed out that even amongst the Rabbonim who followed the Chassam sofer’s derech, there were those who embraced the medinah. Not Zionism- mind you, but certaily the hope and the fact of a medinah.

vochindik-you must have this sermonette ready for writing- as you posted it seconds after my posting! I am not going to enter into an argument about the validity of different seforim (Vajoel Moshe is a halocho sefer???) but I will take issue with your assertion about the persecution of jews in previous centuries and your blind belief that one Godol(the Munkatcher) was right and others were wrong.

If you cannot see that the Holocaust was a game changer in everything,then there is no point in continuing the discussion. In the past two millenia, there was no other corresponding catastrophe since the churban habayis. Even the expulsion from Spain was on another level. If you do not accept this, then there is no point in a discussion.

As far as the Minchas Elazar, you can follow him,if you wish. I (and many others) do not. I can readily accept Rav Teichtal HY”D and his argument about the coming of Moshiach. As a matter of fact , his explanation is very logical!

HaKatan- I am not about to rehash the arguments on the Holocaust. I have said multiple times on this forum that there is no answer to this event and that no one- except the Nazis- are guilty.

As far as the medinah and Zionism, I am in good company with Rav Teichtal zz’l, the gerrer rebbe zz’l and many others.

yekke- just to remind you of what was said earlier- “jemos hamoshiach” (the days of Moshaich) are NOT the same as the days of ‘techyas hameissim”. The gemoro and the Rambam both say that the world will continue normally in “jemos hamoshiach”

sam2- your words are astounding. techyas hameissim only for a few select people? cannot be !

shmel(and popa)-yibum has priority over chalitza although obviously today we only do chalitzah .Amongst the sefardim , yibum was practiced until very recently-so the time machie may not have to go far….

on the ball- what you write is not correct. The Torah specifically includes men AND women in the sin of “ervah” (see kedoshim ,vayikro 20)but there is no mention of “kirvah’ in that chapter. As a matter of fact, that chapter is explicit in dealing with actual forbidden relationships only.

shmoel- You are right and I apologize to R’Moshe Blau zz’l. I confused him with R”Amram Blau zz’l.

vochindik- your logic is convoluted but let’s assume you are right. So, you admit that medinas yisroel is here to stay and that it is our duty now to improve it. How is this view different from the Agudah? And indeed, from the mizrachi?

just a few observations: as “mammele’ writes, the hungarian minhag -al pi chassam sofer- was to shave the woman’s head because they were worried that ,during tevilah, a hair or two would float above the water (especially when they are long)and so the tevilah would not be good.

there is also a “zohar’ (mdd was kind enough to show us a mareh mokom) that equates hair as coming from the “sitra achara” -the evil side and because of that men also shave their head-apart from the peyos. Incidentally, this does not apply to the beard-obviously!

Notwithstanding this late hungarian minhag, it is clear from tenach and gemoro and rishonim that women never shaved their head prior to the nineteenth century.”lulei demistafina” – if I would not be scared on saying this, I would venture to say that this minhag originated in the eighteenth century when all kind of people- including gentiles- shaved their heads for hygienic reasons- and the Jews followed suit- with an assist from a specific chumro.

Allow me to deal first with the truly insulting comments by mogold that the gedolim , who included virtually all of the chassidische rebbes and most of the litvishe roshei yeshiva in eretz yisroel, succumbed to the lure of money. This is insulting and , in this month of elul, you should ask mechila from the imrei emes zz’l ,the ponevitzher rosh yeshiva zz’l, the vishnitser rebbe zz’l , the klausenburger rebbe zz’l and many others.

BTW- the chassam sofer zz’l died in 1839, so let’s not include his shittah-that has nothing to do with zionism or eretz yisroel- in this debate.

As far as BIRUR’s explanation, it is indeed conspicuous that he is not able to comment on the second letter, and can only say “that we can get a fuller understanding if we study his words”. HOW?

As far as the story he tells about telshe in the earlier days- let me point out that it was fritten by R’Moshe Blau zz’l , a wonderful person but he was a member of Neturei Karta, which makes him a “nogea bedovor”.

And again, even if we accept his words, the stories happened way back in the late nineteenth century and early twentieth century, when zionism was indeed a party of haskoloh and incurred the wrath of many orthodox Gedolim.

It is incontrovertible that the Holocaust and the establishment of Medinat Israel were game changers. R”Itche Meir Levin- the gerrer rebbe’s brother-in-law, – signed the declaration of independence of israel! The Vishnizter rebbe zz’l (R’Chaim Meir) built his shikkun in Bnai brak- the Klausenburger rebbe zz’l left the United States and built his kirya in natanyah (Kiryat Zanz). Many other chareidi gedolim recognized this and, although they did not agree with the government in its appraoch to secularity, they realized that the medinah is here to stay and one should work within it to improve it.

rebbi1- your quote from the ramchal is confusing, I interpret it to say that people will live normally “bi-jemei hamoshiach” but when the time will come for “techiyas hameissim’ even those living then will die for one hour to qualify for “techyas hameissim” I will try to fidn the actual quoye in the sefer.

Rambam, hilchos melochim (note , this is part of the jad hachazokoh, a halacha sefer): perek 12 mishne 1 : “Do not think that there will be anything different in the “jemos hamoshiach”, or whether there will be any difference in the the “ways of the world’ (ma-ase bereishis), but the world will continue as always:” See rest of the mishne and the clear indication that the only difference in “jemos hamoshiach” will be in the fact that the Jewish people will be free of the rule of the gemtiles. This view is based on the words of Shmuel in Sanhedrin 91, who said “the only difference in “jemos hamoshiach’ will be “shibud malchyios”- the yoke of the gentiles”.

nechomah- shlomo gave ALL his money away to needy people- every cent of it! Show me any other people who have done that??

BIRUR: Did you look at the dates of the two lettes we are discussing?? The letter that you rely upon (a private one, by the way) was written in 5703 -that is 1943 !! The horrors of the Holocaust were not well known yet and ,obviously, the medinah was not established yet.

The second letter (mentioned by yoshchayal and a public one) was written in 5714 -that is 1954 !!! ten years afetr the catastrophe of the Holocaust was discovered and after the medinah was established.

Whatever was motivating Rabbonim and Gedolim before the Holocaust and certainyl before the establishment of the medinah changed drastically after these events. As in Sifrei teshuvos with regard to teshubos, I take the later letter as the autoritative one.

shmoel- first of all, your statement that “living in eretz yisroel everyone holds of” is incorrect. The satmarer rebbe zz’l told his chassidim to leave eretz yisroel and did not believe that it was a mitzvah to libe in eretz yisroel (see some of the comments here of health and vochindik).

Secondly, the belzer rebbe, the vishnitzer rebbe, the gerrer rebbe, the klausenburger rebbe and many others all came to eretz yisroel when the medinah was being established and all of them came after the Holocaust. If they believed ni the satmarer shittah ,they could have gone elsewhere (where the satmarer himself went). They chose to go to eretz yisroel and accept the medinah wholeheartedly. I do not say that they accepted its philosophy or the state of yiddshkeit but they clearly accepted the medinah and still,today, participate in voting and other aspects of israeli life.

Yes, some of the old yishuv were against the medinah but they are very few today.

shmoel: please inform em where the belzer rebbe shelita lives and where his “chotzer’ is…..also, please tell me where the wishnitzer rebbe shelita lives and where his “kiryah’ is…..