rabbiofberlin

health- let’s differentiate truth from propaganda. R’Moshe Shconfeld z’l was a politician who bent the truth as much as any politician. I don’t know what exactly happened but I think that the inquiry mentioned by DaMoshe is at least as authoritative as Moshe Shonfeld’s article.

I just briefly looked over the comments on this subject. On another thread, I have asserted taht the “issur for music’ during sefirah is a modern invention. Nothing in the original takonoh from the geonim -or even the rishonim- refers to music on sefirah- instrumental or vocal. I don’t see the purpose of making so many chumros.

a quick word to beninungman: If you ever read “Vajoel Moshe’ from the satmarer rebbe zz’l , you will see that he claims that the medinah comes from the “sitra achara”-the “other” side. I am no rebbe, but this comes suspiciosuly close to saying that there are “two reshuyos’ (two powers) -chas vecholiloh- and this- for anyone- smells of “kefirah”.

to health: I will ignore your gratuitious insult and deal with your actual post. you are a frequent and prolific poster here but your arguments always end in sophistry and pretzel-like convolutions.

First-your quote from the gemoro says nothing about historical events. It only deals with the FEELINGS of a jew- and it has nothing to do with what HAPPENS to a jew. As a matter of fact ,the other gemoro (that you did not quote)says ‘ein odom kofef ezbah ele im ken machrizim olov min hashomayim”- a person does not bend his finger unless it is decreed from heaven. So much for you saying that things happen without HKBH’s will.As far as the medinah- you are big into pretzel-land- you say that it was established without HKBH’s will because people are allowed to make aveirus (as if is an aveirah to establish a medinah) but the “zechusim’ keep it going. Well, maybe they continue to have zechusim forever! You and people who espouse your view will continue saying that- just around the corner!just around the corner!- is the destruction of the medinah, chas vesholom. Well, that corner will be there for the rest of our lives and -of course- will never be turned because HKBH does want the medinah with all its failings!

kanoi next door: you are totally wrong. Of course, the Holocaust, with all its tragic and catastrophic aspects, was the will of HKBH! What else can you say? And what does it have to do with celebration? This is a stupid reaction. For tragic things, we say ‘boruch dayan emes’ and the Holocaust- like the churban habays , was a tragedy of massive proportions. We don’t celebrate it =of course- that’s insane but we also do not deny it came from HKBH. On the other spectrum, happy occasions ar also from HKBH and those we celebrate. I, snd many others, believe that the medinah is a happy event and so we celebrate. You are free to think otherwise but you are not free to deny that it comes from HKBH. That kind of thought is kefirah.

to hakatan and health and kanoi next door: what you wrote about history and HKBH’s will comes very close to real kefirah. I don’t particularly follow the gedolim that you mention. I would ask them-and you- a very simple question: The Rambam’s FIRST ani maamim reads as follows (Artscroll translation): “I believe with complete faith that the Creator, Blessed is His Name,creates and guides all creatures,and that He alone makes, and will make evertything”. Do you believe that the medinah was established against the will of HKBH? A very simple answer- yes or no?

kanoi next door; so, you agree to the outlandish accusations that have been mande such as: this a “terrible gezeira”, “the destruction of torah”. “dragging yeshiba bochurim from the beth hamedrash”, “jaharog ve’al jaavor’ and more. All of therse quotes dealing with a fairly mild change to the law. You think this is appropriate talk and description of the situation?

kanoi next door:

actually , I think that the chareidim who call this a ‘gezeira’and make it equal to the worst excesses of our enemies (jaharog veal jaavor, destruction of torah..)is so over thw top that they are discriting themselves!!

This is purely a publicity stunt, nothing more. And shame on the Agudah of America in becoming a puppet of some of the more extreme groups in Eretz Yisroel.

sam2- look at my previous posting where I- albeit reluctantly- acquiesce that public concerts could be included in the showing of aveilus during the sefira. You wil also find that the acharonim prohibit LIVE, public music during engagements. (Methinks the mishne berurah writes the same) My “beef’ is with prohibiting ANY display or listening to music during this period. (This, after all, was the original question of the poster-music during exsrcise).That- I submit- is a vast expansion of ‘aveilus” in an area that was never,ever considered to be part of the minhagim established by the geonim.

to sam2 and DaasYochid: “bemechilas kevod toraschem”- with apologies to your erudition, you have said nothing that contradicts what I say. To quote a Pri Megodim (which I will try to check upon) proves my point, rather than yours. The Pri megodim (as you know) lived barely two hundred years ago-way past the geonim (as you know) and , if indeed he said it, he initiated a new chumro for sefira. You are welcome to follow him but how can you make the tsibbur follow that chumro??

You are saying that the Pri Megodim applied the “ikkar hadin’ to sefira. Again, ‘ikkar chosser min hasefer’. I have yet to see anyone who maintains that the din of ORach chaim 493 (no music all year) is suddeny applied to sefira now. On the contrary, any of the newfangled Poskim who prohibit music during sefira maintain it is part of sefira.

Sam2- you are making assumptions about music and instruments and different times. These are your assumptions,certainly not proven. May I also remind you that there were plenty of musical instruments durign the geonim’s times-yet nowhere is this mentioned in their minhagim for sefira.

Lastly, to assert now that there is an ironclad “minhag’ because the aveilus of sefira is based on minhagim is putting the cart before the horse. I have no problem with anyone who wnats to assume this new ‘minhag” but why do I have to accept it?It is utterly wrong to say that, just because some people make a new minhag, we must all accept it! The gemoro itself allows for minhagim to be different in different places.

And ,as far as R”moshe zz’l, are we bound by any new chumro? Check Manhattan and see whether they have an eiruv on the West Side…then come back t me and tell that we must all follow R’Moshe’s psak.

sam2: you are correct in saying that-theoretically- one cannot listen to music all year round (shulchan aruch OC 560-3) but this minhag been ignored for many years and certainly you do not see many people follow those customs today in the middle of the year. However, in the shulachan aruch on sefira only two “minhagim” are mentioned: not to arrange weddings and not to cut one’s hair. (beards are another topic) See orach chaim 493. from what I have gathered, I did not see any acharonim discuss the laxity of listening to music all year round and THEREFORE- it must be banned during sefira. In other words, there is no specific issur or minhag concerning music during the sefira that derives from that all year round minhag.

to benigmuman: As the whole concept of aveilus during sefira only started with the geonim- it would not surprise me that the issur of cutting hair was introduced a little bit later by the rishonim. I have no way of checking that.In shulchan aruch, they are mentioned as equals.

GAW- yup, I would imagine that in Bobov (wonder which one, though) says it. In some ways, it proves my point. R”Shlomo Halberstam zz’l. who lost his wife, his father and numerous familt members in the Holocaust understood the need for the “kinah”. The ones who decied not to say it-many of them,espcially in Israel- never were part of the Holocaust.

to afsher and gavra at work: I don’t know where you daven on tisha be’av but I have never davened in a chareidi shul that says any of the new “kinos” (TRav Schwab or the Bobover rebbe).I venture to say that in Lakewood, Williamsburg and other chareidi places (and certainly in Israel) do not say it. prove me wrong.

I am not going to enter into this controversy because the ones who oppose Yom Hashoah will not change their minds and the ones who respect that day will continue to commemorate it. Just two facts to correct some of the posters: Tisha be’av and Tsom gedalyah were not just instituted by chazal, it is by the novi (tsom harevi-i, hachamishi,etc) so it is divrei nevi-im that we must observe. The aveilus from Rabbi Akiva’s talmidim started in the geonim’s times (check your halacha)and clearly, there were days that were instituted to remember catastrophes (20 sivsan is just one example). And that was quite a while after the gemoro.

But my question to the opponents is more fundamental; they keep on saying that any commemoration should have been done on tisha be’av. Fair enough. So, tell me ,dear posters, do you say the “kinos’ that were made specially for the Holocaust? I suspect that most of you do not say it- thereby proving that you really do not want ANY commemoration. And that, I think, is truly sad.

mdd: “bemechilas kevod toroscho”- with respect to your knowledge: No one is disputing that Torah can protect (see Dovid hamelech). So are mitzvos (“sheluchei mitzvah einon nizokin”). What is being debated today is not learning per se, but how to structure a society. As you can see from other gemoros that I quoted (berochos, kidushin,etc..), society cannot live on learning alone. We still live in the real world. Financially and societally, it is impossible for a country to have tens of thousands of people without working in some kind of profession. And, as I said many times, no one is disputing that a number of talmidim should be exempt (even the present plan envisions this).It is the blanket exemption that people object to and this is what is new and never was part of the klal.

health-your first point makes no sense because you can always say-if something happens- well, we should have done more- ‘im kein ein le’dovor sof”- if that’s the approach you have, there is no end and no answer to anything. But- I want to address your other points,specifically the last point about me.

I think you fundamentally don’t understand the opinion of people like me. First, no one denies that every jew should learn. When one leaves this world, the immediate question is “kovato itim latorah?” (note, this is after the question of being honest in business but I digress). There is certainly an obligation upon every jew to learn.But this does not mean that every jew has to sit all day in kollel. This is not feasible, in today’s world.(see berachos 35B).So, you have to make choices. Clearly, special people (“metuzyonim”) should be given this opportunity ,even it is comes at the community’s expense. If there are young men who want to learn, relying upon their families, or themselves, then they can do whatever they want to. The argument that many people have is that, today, in israel especially,there is a presumption that everyone has to learn at the communitiy’s expense. That is not only unrealistic financially, but it has never been the norm in klal yisroel.And I am convinced that the protection of HKBH is as protective when the klal is organized in the ways I indicated, as if there would be tens of thousands of learners at the community’s expense. Verty simple, check the mishne avos ‘lo olechu hamelocho ligmor”….you do what you have to do yourself.That is all that HKBH asks from you..

mdd-this whole subject is tiresome because we will both hang on to our views. But-you are contradicting yourself in the same sentence. If previous “churbonos” almost exclusively fell on the frum jews- then your premise of more Torah learning to protect the Jews is erroneous ,as the previous generations suffered immensely , in spite of their erudition and “frumkeit”.

The arguments of some of the posters here defy logic and they will always find a way of twisting the facts to justify their opinions. It is too tiresome to answer every single argument (although health takes the cake for calling the german jews anusim…last time I looked ,they were big on reform..).

To mdd and others: can you please show me the quote in gemoro that says that only learning torah will always protect klal yisroel? If this were so, then why didn’t the chachomim over the many centuries insist on kollelim everywhere for everyone? No one ever asked that- until the last fifty years. The basic fact about learning is the following: “kovea itim latorah” do whatever is asked of you. No one expects people to learn forever (see gemoro berochos 35B)and the catastrophes of the past have come in many various times, whether there was torah (second bayis) or not (maybe germany 1933?). the tosofos yom tov may have said what he said but then this is his opinion, not necessarily what is real. The gemoro asked long time ago abot “zaddik vera lo” without a conclusive answer.Same here. No one has an asnwer about the HOlocaust ,not even the satmarer rebbe or Rav teichtel ,to take both sides of the argument. The basic fact is that there is a lot of torah in israel today (thanks to the zionists!!)and this wil not diminish. The adjustments will make sure that only those who are real “learners” stay in learning and everyone else makes a decent lving.

to health,kanoi next door, daas jochid and others: Historically, you are all wrong. There was torah-lots of it- in the bais sheini,and yet, it was destroyed! (to remind you, it was about sinas chinom..)there was torah everywhere throughout the middle ages in europe, yet jews were expelled from every country in europe ,including Spain, of course. There was plenty of torah in poland in the sixteenth century, yet chmilniecky killed over 200,000 jews…all because of lack of torah? there was lots of torah in poland and lithuania in the twentieth century,yet Hitler Jemach shemo killed millions of frum jews…for lack of torah??

We cannot and never should try to read into hakodosh boruch huh’s intentions.It is preposterous to say that the coming adjustments to the intake of soldiers in israel will kill torah. It will only make it more difficult to coem to an agreement if the voices of unreason prevail.

mmmm…is this the first time that rockets have been shot at the the negev?? seems to me that there were just a few rockets shot in recent years,even when the chareidim were in the governmet and all chareidim benefited from he past government…”ma nishtanu hajom hazeh?”

ahavas yisroel is in short supply on this website…

ksnoi- i don’t engage in long debates in this forum anymore,as most people (on obth sides) have their mind firmlhy made up, but I do like to correct false assumptions.

First, why don’t you check the mishneh and gemoro in sotah,perek 8,mishneh 7. There is absolutely no HETTER of talmud torah for anyone when it is a milchemes mitzvah. The Rambam paskens the same way. By the way,your assumption of freeing oneself through talmud torah is false when it comes to mitzvos “begufoi”. You cannot claim -“I learn therefore I do not put on tefillin” this would be absurd. Moreoever, there are plenty of mitzvos that supersede talmud torah (levaya, simchas chosson vekallah)

Secondly, to feed one’s wife and family is a d’oraisa. See mishpotim “she-eo, kesuoso veonosso”.Additionally, every married man signed the kesuboh where he undertook to feed and clothe and support his wife. There is also a chiyuv of supporting one’s small children and,of course, the mishne in kiddushin ,perek 1, mishneh 7 and the gemoro on it clearly obligate a man to learn a profession so as to support his family.

Lastly, you should look up the gemoro berachos 35B, where the gemoro clearly indicates that , in today’s world, it is impossible for most people (check the loshon hagemoro “rabbim”)to rely upon others to support then without working themlseves.

As far as your point of American aid, without it, you are your own boss in many spheres and may be an advantage. To support a large part of the population for little return is a recipe for financial disaster.

israeli chareidi- i don’t undersatand your point. I sadi that the vast majority of chareidim are not invloved in any organized chessed and the ones who are are paid. With national service, you have more manpower.

I wish that what Israeli chareidi writes is true. It is not. Chessed organizations do indeed have volunteers but most have paid staff. The vasy majority of chsreidim have little to do with these organizations.

The amount of name calling here ,particularly against rabbonim who do not espose the ‘chareidi” viewpoint is breath-taking. This has been going on for decades and even geonim like Rav Goren zz’l were its victims. No wonder that the non-chareidi crowd dismisses the chareidi arguments and its interlocutors- in the chareidi world, there is not Torah but the chareidi Torah. Sad and ultimately self=defeating,because they only succeed at marginalizing themselves.

In addtion ,the ignorance of history of some of the posters is obvious. For example,”ah talmid” writes: “do you hear of gedolim who had an elected parliamentary career like Rav Druckman?” Obvioiusly, “ah talmid’ does not know his jewish history. Check out the career of R” Meir Shapiro, zz’l, founder of Daf hajomi. Check out who sat with him in the Polish Siem. Check out who sat in the first Knesset, from R’Itche Meir Levin (brother in law of the gerrer rebbe) to other religious members.