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DaasYochid: because if you bothered to look at it, you might know why we pasken “lekuloh” in most instances.
DaasYochid: Did you even look at Pesochim 74B?
Daas2: with great respect to you, there issuch a thing as ‘eis laasos lashme, heferu torusecho” in special times.
As far as the so-called shmad of the Zionists- clearly, there is no excuse for it- but retreating from the field of battle and abandoning the rest of klal yisroel is not what the response should be.
Interesting that people believe that “kasher” is a veteran. I do not. I think he is lying and using it to bash the Army.
DaasYochid:Please go and learn some sugyos in gemoro Sottah, kiddushin,kessubos, and rambam and then you can pontificate about “talmud torah keneged kuom”. You are literally “mareh ponim shelo kehalocho” and you ignore whole sugyos.
It is disgreaceful to see so many posters denigrate and express virtual hatred to a fellow Jew in these Nine Days and any time,actually! “Shtopgenz’ is ossur according to many poskim and I cannot see why Rav Lipman should be accused of all the ills of the world because he brought this bill to the floor! BTW- 58- 10.He won!
The gemoro has very specific examples and instructions what “memaatim besimcha” meas and it is mentioned in shulcahn aruch. Nowhere does it say we mustgo around with a long face and flagellate ourselves. And- YMH’s “vort’, quoing chassidim, is a reaction to two thousand years of pain and exile. “Ad kan”!
health: I have no idea what your mention of the well known ohr someach does. I fulle endorse what he wrote, that one who thinks that the center of the world is not jerushalaim (alluding to German Reform Judiasm)will suffer greatly (in reference to the tochacho).
As far as your other assertion, that Eretz yisroel (and jerushalaim) is -chas vecholilo- “golus”, beware of what you write about eretz yisroel! Your quote from eicha makes no sense-as per your interpretation- which is what,BTW?
Health: I fully know that there are exceptions to living in Eretz Yisroel and indeed, I would never be your “Possek” and insist that you live in Eretz Yisroel.
My objection to your post was when you named Eretz Yisroel “golus”.Chas vecholilo!!
And, as far as R” Joelish zz’l goes, there must be many of his followers in Eretz Yisroel who are not listening to him in this matter of living outside of Eretz Yisroel. Maybe they should stop listening to him on other matters too!
Gamanit- First- you don’t know where I live. Second- I certainly don’t consider Eretz Yisroel “golus”-chas vecholilo- as “health” does.My point to “health’ was that (you can read his post) he dismissed many chazal and gemoros that deplore living in chutz lo-oretz.To this, I contrasted his attitude of always following halocho and ,in this case, denigrating, chazal.
health: “yes, it is golus, in spite of the chazal ssying the things they did about living in chutz lo-oretz”. SO- you do not accept what the gemoro says? I thought you followed halocho…
Health- Eretz Yisroel is never golus! As you know, the gemoro is very dismissive on anyone who lives in chutz lo-oretz…and my remark was not meant to taken literally- the arguments on this post have become very nasty and I do regret some of my own words.In these “nine days’, one has to bw very careful what one says!
apukerma- I do admire you for this; at least you don’t hide your true intentions.
popa- at last, we know where you stand. No wonder that you never find any fault with extreme chareidi positions.
popa- I enjoy dressing like a chareidi, I enjoy having a chassidic rebbe as my mentor, I enjoy the traditions and customs of my chareidi background and I have no intention discarding them. What I don’t appreciate is hypocrisy and ingratitude, I believe in our Jewish destiny in Israel. I abhor asinine statements about “shmad”, “eliminating Torah” and twisting chazal and a slew of halachic sayings to fit a specific selfish program. I certianly do not hate chareidim nor do I hate an jew but I despise people who are supercilious and arrogant, who think that only they know the truth. Yup, those people I despise.
DaasYochid and popa- you can attribute any statement to me that you wish, even if it defies logic (If I am a chareidi, how can I hate myself?)but just tell me whether some on the chareidi leadership did not show hatred for the “other side” in all their statemente about ‘reshoim’, “wanting to eliminate Torah”, “kofrim’ and many other sayings that you can read every day on YWN. That is a lot more damning and hateful than anything I have said. My disgust is at those who shelter behind the protection of the Israeli army, who shamelessly milk other jews for all what they can get, who spit in the cup they drink from aand then turn around and refuse any reasonable compromise in improving the lot of everyone. Yup-those people I have contempt for.
health- I have a very easy solution to you and the ones who espouse your views: move to another country who does not require you to ‘share’ in any burden. I am sure that the israeli government will be very sympathetic to you moving to, say, albania.
popa- again- do you agree with the statement that israeli soldeirs who died in war to defend the medina and its inhabitants-including chareidim- are “pigul” if they don’t have the right “kavonoh”? such a statememt is normal?
gavra- but the “low information” people do take it at face value and hence make any compromise impossible. Maybe this is what they want but remember, the financial aspects of this new law will be far reaching and will bring abject poverty to many chareidi families, based on a total fallacy! yet, the so-called manhigim will continue to live in luxury while their unsuspecting underlings will pay the price of their obstinacy.
gavra= you say tomato-we say tomahto?
popa-you should read the postings more carefully. The statement that you mention coming from me , you took out of its context.I was responding to the words of “About Time’ quoting R”Berel Soloveichik that the sacrifice (read death) of israeli soldiers is “pigul” if they don’t have the right “Kavonoh”. This is a hateful statement- calling jews who gave their lives to protect R”berel Soloveichik and his talmidim from the clutches of our enemies “pigul”.
truthsharer: If you (or anyone else on this site) would ever meet me, you’d consider me the classical chareidi- in dress, background, present affiliation ,children,etc. So, no (Popa) I do not -g-d forbid-hate the chareidim. I am one of them. However, to hear the outlandish statements made by so many chareidim in reaction to the present situation (see some of the statements made recently by Agudah leaders,for example)is so outrageous and so insulting to many jews that,indeed, the ugly side of some chareidim is shown. When you read about “shmad”, “destroying Torah”,”dragging bochurim from their shtenders”, “pigul”, and many other statements that are so over-the-top , you start thinking- “zu torah, vezu sechoro?” is this what the Torah truly teaches us? And then, when you look at the sources and clearly see that halacha,gemoro, rishonim and history is in total contrast to what is being preached now, you scratch your head and you posit, what is this all about? sureyl not Torah, nor tradition,as both of these are and will be well protected by any new law? And then you think, is it money? is it crass self-interest? and you come away with a very uneasy feeling about your chareidi brothers.
popa: so, you agree with the statmenet that those Israeli soldiers that died in the wars- protecting chareidim,by the way- is “pigul”?
About Time: you do realize that the more these outrageous statements are made by the chareidi leadership, the more hateful the chareidim become in the eyes of others, including many good Jews like myself?
akuperma- I don’t bother to comment on your outlandish postings but what you just wrote is so far outside of Jewish thought and tradition that I had to show how wrong you are. All you have to do is look at gemoro sottah and rambam hilchos melochim to see hoe outrageously false your comments are. Israeli soldiers guilty of murder? You are truly proving yourself to be delusional. There was no bais hamikdosh in bar Kochba’s time either , yet the chachomim considered him Moshiach for a long while! Your comments are the fruit of perverse thinking.
Sam2- My very erudite son informed me that the Shach- in his major work on Sefeikos,end of joreh deah- paskens like the Rashbo that “sefeika d’oraisa” is lechumroh- and does not pasken like the Rambam who, holds it is only lechumro miderabbonon.
However, as far as a psak when the doubt is on matters of which halacha to follow- there are multiple variables and “klollim” and it is impossbile to say whether we pasken “lechumoroh” or ‘lekuloh” -regardless whether it is midoirasa or miderbbonon. I doubt there is one size fits all.
Sam2- you are correct in saying that it is a machlokes horishonim, although I think that most rishonim hold it is miderabbonon. I don’t agree ith you on your second point.There are too many variables in Psak to assert what you are saying.
DaasYochid: “sofek d’oraisa lechumro” is miderabbonon. Midoraisa, it is lekuloh. And, this has nothing to do with Psak -it has to do with “metzius’- reality. When we have a doubt as to what something is (for example, what is this piece of meat?) then the rabbonon said that ‘sofek d’oraisa lechumro.” We have been discussin how to pasken on certain matters, not what reality it is.
DaasYochid: Well, you have a better memeory that I. I do not even remember that discussion. However, our positions remain the same. I maintain that the gemoro has a preference for “koach deheteirah”- obviously when there are decent sources. You maintain differently. My souruces are simple and plentiful, whether Baitza 2B (and many other places),Pesochim 74B, the klal that in sefeikos we go lekuloh (certainly in a miderabbonon) and other places. For whatever reason, you and others ignore these sources. That’s ok with me. But don’t expect me to espouse chumors when it clearly is not the ikkar lehalocho.
DaasYochid: You are confusing me. I checked back and our conversation started when I responded to GrowupAlready who wrote that halacha is ‘uncompromising” (hence the hardline positions of the chareidim)and I sadi that there plenty of sources that show that halocho is NOT “uncompromising”- and looking to find the “easier’ way out.
You chimed in and said that ‘when you have no “rayah’ you should be machmir. ON THAT_I answered that you are incorrect and that we find plenty of sources who find that “paskening lekuloh’ is the way to og.
How am I now changing the subject?
DaasYochid: Actually, from aveilus you can bring the “rayah” at just the opposite: That , in aveilus, the gemoro says that always we go after the “meikel”. WHY? because it is better (odif) to be meikel. Same reasoning as “koach deheteira odif”. ,except by aveilus, we ALWAYS pasken like the meikel, not ncesseraly the case in other parts of halocho.
You are twisting words when you say that “koach deheteirah odif” deso not mean “kulo odif”. As a matter of fact, it is an even stronger statement- preferring the one who is “meikel”. And Pesochim 74B clearly shows the preference of the gemoro to be “meikel”.
You are welocme to continue in your illusion that halocho requires chumros. It does not and this can be proven from a multitude of piskei halocho.
Sam2: Either we speak a different language or we have different ideas about Psak. OBVIOUSLY- if there is no “tsad lehetter” ,one cannot be meikel. You cannot be “mattir bossor vecholov”, for example. HOWEVER, it is clear from the gemoro-in many places!- that relying upon the “meikel” side is better (odif) because its sources and reasoning are more solid. How else do you explain the gemoro in “baitzah 2B”? The gemoro clearly opines that it is better to discuss the issue according to the makillim, because to be meikel is more authoritative than being “machmir”. In other words, the gemoro PREFERS an opinion that is “meikel”. True, not always do we “pasken” like the “meikel”- but it is absolutely clear from the gemoro in many places, that, in halacha, you take the route of the “meikel’-if possible. See Pesochim 74B. See aveilus, see “sefeika d’oraisa’, which is only ossur miderabbonon, etc.
Sam2 and DaasYochid: Please!!!
“koach deheteira odif” means exactly what it says (and Rashi says it explicitly): it is very easy to be ‘machmir’: just say no. However, to be able to be ‘meikel” (and allow something), you need more sources and more understanding and (as Rashi says) you are not AFRAID to be meikel! Hence, the reasoning behind a hetter is more authoritative. And the gemoro calls it “ODIF”-stronger and better! Please do not twist the gemoro and Rashi to your wishes!!
And please, check Pesochim 74B (that neither of you mentions) and you will see again that the gemoro DOES pasken “lekuloh”, rather than “lechumro”.
DaasYochid: And, if you still maintain wahtever explanation you concoct, please look at Pesochim 74B and the machlokes Ravinah and Rav Acha and you will see- clear as day- that the gemoro paskens “lekuloh” when possible.
DaasYochid; Tell me how YOU learn this klal.
Toi: WHATEVER.
DaasYochid: No one is saying anything about a licence to be meikel. What the gemoro clearly indicates is that-if you can find a way to be meikel- you should. THAT is the explanation of “koach deheteirah odif”.
DaasYochid: ?????????????????????
Toi- You have just perfectly illustrated why anti-zionists and extreme chareidim have engendered so much opposition to their views and stands. Your description of the the IDF is more thsn a caricature, it is a total fabrication. And I think it is scandalous that you even mention the word “jackboot”. Vehamivein jovin.
Toi- In general, I would not continue this fruitless argument but I’ll do it once more: You don’t think there are tens of thousands-probably hundreds of thousands- of good jews who were perfectly well treated in the Israeli army? You think that the IDF sends around hundreds of photographers who then fake those pictures? So, that you do not believe but the testimony of one solitary voice who may have encountered an isolated case of intolerance -that paints the whole IDF as evil? Sorry, I don’t buy it.
TOI: “eineh domeh shemiah leri-ah”
DaasYochid: See “Bei-t-zah” 2b in Rashi for a very succinct explanation and this klal is mentioned many other times in Shas.
Grow up Already: I did not say that adherence to halacha is “ludicrous”. Please don’t misrepresent my posts. I said that “the uncompromising stand of the chareidim” is ludicrous. And I illusrated it by showing how extreme some of these positions are. Lastly, What do you mean by “halacha” is uncompromising? No attempt to be “meikel”? (koach de-hetira odif) No attempt to have a “pshoro” (compromise)? No attempt to find a way that thr tsibbur can live with something? (“gezeirah sh’eim hatsibbur jochoim la-amod bo). Your comments are ludicrous.
Grow up Already, Toi and others: from the items that you mention , you can see how ludicrous the uncompromising stand of some chareidis is. Charlehall wrote eloquently abou the (non) halachic issues that you mention, Not only are they insignificant (no mincah on time? hsve you learned hilchos krias sheam and wha the Poalim do?)but they are in total contrast to the truth (how many photos do we have of jews davening in talis and tefillin even as they are preparing for battle?). You bring up the non-mehadrim food- well, which hechsher are you talking about? Badatz? Chassam Sofer? Agudah? And can’t you even eat cheese, eggs, bread? Preposterous.
Anyway- I am not here to go through the whole litany of arguments. Can there be improvement? Of course! But, until the chareidim show that they are part and parcel of the population and shoulder their responsiblities, why should the rest of the tsibbur bent over backwards-as they will be kickied in the teeth anyway?
Grwo up Already: NO, I do not live in Israel now but there are seven million Jews living there- kein jirbu- and I just don’t believe for one moment that there are jackbooted soldiers going around israel making you eat chazzir or ordering you to smoke on shabbos or anything else you may say.I do not believe it for one moment. And quoting anonymous sources making vague accusations is no way of proving your point.
GrowUpAlready: You only have to look at what you write to realize why so many people are pushing back and fighting the chareidi dictatortship. You write that what goes on in the army is “shmad”. Do you truly think that any sane person would even believe that outrageous and ridiculous accusation? You write that this is a “war against Torah”. The hyperbole is so “over the top” that even the ones who may be sympathetic to some of the chareidi arguments dismiss the chareidim as unreliable, unrealistic and impossible to deal with.
When you and the extreme chareidi leadership that you support would come down to this earth, maybe we could talk then! Till then, we shall try doing what we feel is right.
shikron: as far as lowering the age to 18- well, I will tell you that I would oppose this. Why should other 18 year olds haver to go three years to the army and the chareidim nothing? that will not fly. as per your second point- we are now in a give and take situation-There has been nothing given b ythe chareidim- they are fighting every possible change tooth and nail and by doing this, they weaken many of their supporter’s hands- for now, the “other’ side plays hardball the same as the chareidi side plays hardball. There should be acomproimse somewhere but i don’t see it yet.
shikron: to your second point, conscientious objectors are not free from any duty,they are just exempt from active army duty. They are medics, computer operators and other non-military functions. Will you allow ther chareidim to be drafted for these other posts?
Toi- I don’t believe your figures. You better show me where that is mentioned.
shikron- actually, you and I and some very senior people in the government agree. Allow all the chareidim above a certain age (say 28) to work without going to the army and eliminate all extra financial support to the chareidi Tsibur. Your problem is that the Rabbonim of the chareidim will fight that too, because they would lose all their power and influence and lose jobs. Do you know how many jobs there are today in kollels and other yeshiva bodies? This would be drastically reduced if chareidim would be allowed to go to work- because they would leave kollel en masse.The problem is that the chareidi “tsibbur’ has been cossetted by all governments for the last sixty years and they are ill prepared to enter the work force. Only a drastic change can bring this about and the fight aganst ANY move cutting funds or to introduce a modicum of secular studies stands inthe way.
This is a fight that will not end well for anyone.
biology: Rav Simcha HaCohen Kook may be a respected Rov- but a leader of the dati-leumi crowd he is not (As a matter of fact, most chareidi posters probably know little about him) I specifically singled out R” Shmuel Auerbach shelita because his father zz’l was very moderate and he is now the most extreme “Ashkenazi” non-chassidische Rov and he sure doesn’t sit with dati leumi rabbonim.
Sam2: I absolutely believe that Rav Herzog zz’l had so-called chareidim join him in his house. Unfortunately ,these were different times- so much so that people don’t want to know that Rav Kook zz’l had R’Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld zz’l join him and together they visited many yishuvim in the 1930’s.
Can you imagine TODAY R’ Shmuel Auerbach shelita join any dati leumi Rov and do some joint appearance? Never in our lives, unfortunately. So, what happened sixty years ago is not being duplicated-sadly.
shikron and AregularJew: You turn to simple slogans and you wrong on both. It isabout army service but it is also about the financial drain that the present system imposes on the klal. As far as the army service, why shouldn’t chareidm serve in the army? It is not their country? Their families don’t need the protection? Of course, they do and there should be a system that aloows the chareidim to serve in the army. The financial aspect is more immediate: the present system cannot continue as is. If the chareidim don’t want to join the system ,then the government should not finance them.
nitpicker: we have very little to discuss as you prefer to insult “ad hominem”, rather that enter into a constructive discussion.