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mentsh1: well, we shall have to agree to disagree. There is bechira and people make decisions to kill or be saved.”mokom sakkkohnoh” is not the only exception (see ibn Ezra on jotzei millchomo) but you have just driven a mack truck through this loophole. How can “mokom sakonnoh’ be judged an exception as-according to your shittah- it also circumvents G-‘ds will?
Mentsch1
Last post before yom tov. No, I do not agree that it is an absolute that all who had to die died and all who had to live lived. I do think that we have bechira and that we are subect to our own actions. You find plenty of gemoros telling us not to be someplace (bemokon sakkonoh) or not to do certain things that will influence our lives “venishmartem es nafshoseichem). As I said, I do not have the answer to this question of the Almighty’s will and our bechira. But everything in our tradition points to the fact that we should try to avoid danger and preserve our lives.mentsch1: If I accept your absolutist view about fate , then why have policemen? why have armies? why flee from gunfire? why not cross the road into oncoming traffic? why not ingest arsenic? after all, if the Almighty wants me to stay alive, nothing will change that. This is a red herring . I do not have the answer how to understand and synchronize the concept of bechira and the fact of the Almighty’s will but I will certainly do everything in my power to avoid danger and avoid being killed. Yes, clearly, the Holocaust ultimately was part of the Almighty’s plans but I also believe that Hitler YEMACH SHEMO was the most evil person to have lived and that anyone who tried to evade his clutches could have survived. In the same way that you maintain that anyone who dies is part of the Almighty’s will ,why can’t you also accept that The Almighty gives people the bechira and the opportunity to save oneself when tried.
mentsch1_your last comment defies logic. So, according to you, all six million kedoshim who were murdered in the Holocaust were just victims who would have died anyway. Happy to see how you rehabilitated Hitler yemach shemo vezichro.
ubiquitin: A freilichen Purim!
To answer your queries, I do not accept as “torah misinai’ what is said by some of the people you mention. It has never been conclusively proven why Rav Goren’s psak should not be accepted. As Avi K points out, this particular “hetter’ is used with great abandon by chareidi Poskim today- invalidating thousands of Geirim on the same basis. Rav Goren only meant it as a psak in that one instance whereas chareidi Poskim -today!- use it to “passel” thousands of good Geirim. That, by definition, reeks of politics.
ubiquitin (and Joseph): First of all, the assertions by Joseph are totally false, whether making the father (Borokovski) a “tsaddik gomur”, when many people testified that he never left his original gentile ways, or asserting, in total contradiction to the facts, that Rav Druckman’s converts never kept the mitzvos. But then Joseph has an agenda that always colors-nay-perverts his views.
My belief has always been that Rav Goren’s hetter was nothing unusual and similar hetterim were used by many Poskim before and after him (witness Rav Sherman). It may be that benignuman’s opinion may be the reason- that it was technically a decision on the process but certainly halachically correct. This is what I meant by politics and it is a sad day that politics impinge on Halacha decisions.
benignuman: My point is that the hetter used by Rav Goren was not unusual. As a matter of fact, the same reason was used in recent years to invalidate a geirus by Rabbi Sherman. Whether you agree with one or the other side, it cannot be that ,when used by a chareidi Rov (Rav Sherman), it is a good hetter but when used by a dati leumei Rov (Rav Goren) it is not. This was my point about politics.
I am still puzzled why there was such opposition to Rav Goren’s zz’l Hetter in the Langer case. It was not outlandish at all and well in line with Hetterim that have been used for many centuries. Politics, anyone? And, by the way, if non-belief in the world’s 6000 years makes one an “apikores”-there are some very illustrious Gedolim that fit the bill-see Tiferet Yisroel.
Joseph-as always, you are totally wrong. If you think that no one believed that Jews posed a risk to Americans in the thirties, you are still smoking the same thing that you have been smoking all along. There was a genuine pro-Nazi crowd then, led by Lindbergh with their slogan : “America First” (what a coincidence!) and we, the Jewish people, were the main victims. From the Evian conference in 1938 when no nation- not even that benevolent USA- volunteered to accept Jews to the turning back of the St.Louis, on FDR’s order.to the refusal to lift a finger in bombing the train lines to Auschwitz, all of it was colored by a deep anti-Semitism in the US. And the pretense was the criminal nature of “those Jews”. Sounds like today, when all kind of spurious claims are made about Syrian refuges and the like. It is a stain on America and I, for one, will not be part of it. Let the refugees in!
NevilleChaimberlin: I never defended “tooth and nail” Conservative positions or ever mentioned Conservative rabbis.
Abraham Joshua Heschel ,as far as I know, was fully orthodox, in spite of teaching at non-orthodox institutions.
My reference was to your forbidding certain foods although here are Poskim that allow them.
ubiquitin: thanks for the sources for “kosher’ fish-although that list would not be accurate today-it even lists sturgeon, which has been classified as “not kosher’ by most temporary Poskim.
The question of gelatin is an old one and indeed, R”Chaim Ozer zz’l did allow it, although I think he retracted in later years.
What is alarming to me is the attitude of “NevilleChaimBerlin” hat has become pretty mainstream- disqualifying anyone who and anything that does not conform to the (extreme) chareidi line.
softwords: Pray tell me which which “treif concepts from secular Zionism” have crept into Religious Zionism? And, pray tell me, do you think that every other Jewish stream is pure as the driven snow, without any input from other sources (the apparent infallibility of Rabbonim for one)??
Mik5: As I said, you buy the propaganda hook line and sinker. There is absolutely NOTHING in the Torah or the Talmud (gemoro to me) that says that you cannot have a Jewish state- as you glibly declare. If anything, from the Rambam one can deduce that there IS an imperative to have a Jewish state.
In general, I avoid commenting on these matters- too many established opinions but I want to point out that Mik5 is buying into propaganda, hook ,line and sinker. To echo benignuman , there is absolutely no indication that the gedolim who supported Zionism-going back to the mid-nineteenth century!- are in any way less of an authority than their opposite numbers. Just because the gedolei yisroel that mik5 follows are of a different opinion does not make them right. If anything, the events of the Holocaust and the establishment of Medinat Yisroel proves that the Zionist gedolim were on the right track.
mik5 and leftbrooklyn: unless you are a sefardi, then it is allowed
health: Trump is a bigot, a fascist, a demagogue, a xenophobe and a narcissist. He does not care one iota about “YOU” and he only cares about himself. His most ardent supporters are the KKK, the “First America”‘s who were rabid anti-semites, the Southern yahoos who hate the jews more than blacks.
Whatever Hillary did or did not do, she is infinitely better than Trump.
DaasYochid: thanks for clarifying your comments. I say “amen’ to your second comment concerning Trump.
As far as Hillary goes, I am not enamored of her at all but ,in comparison to Trump, she is the epitome of excellence.
And it is not at all clear if anyone else having done the same thing in ref. to the server would be indicted. Sanctioned, yes, maybe even fired from the job but criminal liability? Not at all clear.
The damage to her on this is real and the American public will decide whether they want to forgive her on this, as it should be.
DaasYochid: I am happy to see that you have a law degree and that you are a sitting Federal judge. Last time I looked, The FBI Director said clearly that her mistakes or offenses did not rise to any criminal level. Dream on. Your hero Trump is a miserable human being who will lose big in November.
It always amazes me that, in the past, we initiated a special day of fast or praying for any calamity that occurred, even if minor. Yet, for the greatest calamity of them all, the Holocaust, nothing has ever been scheduled.
NevilleChaimberlin: Before opining, can you please read the posts?
I have said- constantly- that escalators, Shabbos elevators and yes, public transport-if it is free- do not present an issur melocho. I did NOT say that one can use public transport nilly willy as I said there is a question of “maris ayin”. However, Shabbos elevators and escalators do not have this problem-hence one can use them -as tens of thousands of jews do around the world.
AviK: Belated answer to your comment about the driver (of the train, I assume) doing a melocho “doiraisa”. This is irrelevant as the drivers of those trains are overwhelmingly gentiles. As with a mill owned by a gentile,it would be Muttor.
As far as the story of the doctor and the rov, I am surprised at your assertion that it is preferable to call an ambulance rather than drive a car. Clearly, “bemokom pikuach nefesh” one does not wait and the doctor drove himself to save time.
DaasYochid: I always respect your knowledge but what you write is just not true. As said numerous times on this thread, there are thousands of Shabbos elevators throughout the world and thousands of jews use it. Escalators are certainly less “chomur’ and a poster mentioned the “shemiras Shabbos” who is “matter” it. It is pretty safe to say that he checked with R”Shlomo Zalman Auerbach on this.
As far as bicycles, although there is no specific issur, adults have refrained from using this due to “uvdo dechol” or “shemo jetaken”.
On umbrellas, it was a major machlokes in the 18th and 19th century. Check the Nodah bejehuda, SH”T Tenina, teshuvo 30. Although he ultimately forbids opening an umbrella, he ends by saying , that, if the umbrella is already open, there is a “tsad hetter”. As I wrote, there were towns and Hungary who had open umbrellas at the ready to avoid the problem of “ohel”. Obviously there has to be an eiruv in the town.
As far as trains or other public transport, both the “Shoiel Umeshiv” and the “Chelkas Yaakov” struggle to find any real issur and they both end up by saying, well, it is just not “shabbosdik”.
I have no problem with this but , clearly, therev is no real issur de’oiraisa or even miderabbonon in all of these examples.
DaasYochid: Fine. You also know that there are plenty of other views amongst the Poskim.
DaasYochid: I checked the halochos of things done before Shabbos (siman 252) and the halocho that you mentioned-feeding grain to a mill before Shabbos, se’if 5. It is actually not as you quote it. First, the “mechaber” is “matter” it and even the Remo is leaning to allow it and only if there is a great noise “avsha milsa”,does he tend to asser (“lekatchila”). Secondly , it is only valid with a mill that belongs to a jew, not if it is a mill owed by a gentile. And the reason is obvious- when there is a lot of noise emanating from a Jewish-owned mill, there is a question of “ziluso leshabsa”_the exact words of the mishne berurah. So, on the one hand, it seems that a certain concept of “ziluso deshabbsa’ is a valid reason not to do something-but it is very circumscribed in its use, as even in the blatant case, there is plenty of reason to allow it.
I realize that,in modern times, starting with steam trains, the Poskim had difficulty explaining any issur Shabbos and hence, had to resort to rather imprecise reasons. Yet, “hovu delo losif olov”. Let us not add issurim based on flimsy reasons.
DaasYochid: Words and concepts are important. You cannot just arbitrarily develop a new concept that have no direct source in halocho. I will quote you a myriad sources where a word and/or concept is vitally important in halocho. Hence, if you cannot explain to me the concept of “zilzul Shabbos” and its origin, it weakens your case.
In the “wheat analogy” you ignore the fact that it is the human-Jew- who actually puts in the wheat. Additionally, it seems that this is a unique situation, as we all use Shabbos clocks routinely, although we have adjusted it before Shabbos.
As far as the chelkas Yaakov and his quote from the “shoeil umeishiv”,you prove my point. R”Yosef Shaul Nathanson does not give any concrete source for an issur except for the general aspect: “es is nisht shabbosdik “. Fine, I’ll accept that but this approach has is limitations.
AviK; It is unclear from what you write whether you agree with the “machmirim” or the “meikilim”.
Please note that trains -and Shabbos elevators- also run all the time with no input by the user. Again, I challenge anyone to show me what melocho or toldoh or even a derabbonon is transgressed by using escalators.
DaasYochid: Escalators, Shabbos elevators, public transport trains and buses and other such contraptions-say a moving floor like you have in airports- “min hadin” should be muttor. One who uses it does not make any act, he does not push buttons, he does not move levers, he does nothing. I cannot see how this can be ossur “min hadin”. You have to show me what such an individual does to be under the heading of a “melocho”. However, because of external reasons- say “maris ayin”- certain of these actions-public transport- have been discouraged. Escalators or Shabbos elevators-not being subject to such problems- have been allowed.
The above is simple and makes sense. Anything else seems to be a chumroh.
I could not read the “shoeil umehsiv” in your excerpt-print too small, so I do not know whether he uses the term “zilzul Shabbos”.
However, these words of yours: “Poskim in each generation are applying the concept to new applications” explains your view. it also explains my view- that some of these are new concepts made anew and which have no basis in Halacha.
DaasYochid: Actually, I concur with you- if you are taking the subway to go a long way to go to shul (which is the subject of Rav Goldschmidt sefer), it would be muttor if you don’t pay. As far as visiting your mother or a sick person, there is not immediate need to visit that person on Shabbos. Because of the “maris ayin” aspect, traveling on a train on Shabbos is quite different than using the escalator or the Shabbos elevator and one cannot draw any parallel between trains and escalators and Shabbos elevators.
As far as “zilzul” Shabbos, can you show me any sources pre-this generation of Poskim? Chutzpah or no chutzpah, it is a legitimate question and don’t you think it deserves an answer?
AviK: I don’t have access to R’Moshe’s teshuvo now, but this issue of “zilzul shabbos’ is -bemechilas kevod hatorah- a new invention. Certainly, this approach is not found amongst early Poskim. “Uvdo dechol” ,yes, but “zilzul Shabbos”? You can frame virtually anything as “zilzul Shabbos”. Going around in a colored shirt, or in shorts- may not be nice but is it ossur?? And why would an escalator not be “zilzul shobbos” as per your approach?? If you allow escalators and Shabbos elevators, I do not see why public transport- especially beshaas hadechak- would be ossur.
Daas Yochid: If you walk in the street, it is normal activity on any day. Unless you are going somewhere very specifically, you would not use public transport. When you use public transport, you are going to work or shopping. It I very unlikely that you would just take a “stroll” on the trains! As you are very adept at finding sources in HebrewBooks, maybe you can look up his sefer.
NIsht: no question of ‘tchum” as we are talking about a very large city.
In fairness, I think he was dealing with people who might use cars to come to shul- hence, much better to take public transport. However, the point is that there is no specific issur and one could rely on this, “beshaas hadechak”.
cherrybim:In many cities in Europe, subway (and buses) are accessed by people without any payment-whether by token or card. One needs to have a proof of payment, such as a weekly or monthly pass. Hence, one can walk onto a subway train without any payment. I was made aware of this question by Rav Goldschmidt of Moscow, where people lived far away from the shuls and had to take public transport to get to shul. If my memory serves me right, he had a (verbal) psak from R’Moshe zz’l that it was much better for shul-goers to use public transport that come by car ( many problems of real chilul shabos). However, the one caveat was that, once one is seen on such train, it is not clear whether he/she was going to shul or just shopping. Hence, the “maris ayin”. I’ll try to find the sefer and quote accurate point.
DaasYochid: You keep on quoting Poskim who actually admit that there is no issur but only because of “zilzul Shabbos”. one should not use an elevator (or a train, as per “SHoeil Umeishiv”). Fine. You can follow that chumroh and no one will complain. However, “me-ikar hadin” there is no issur so let the people who do use Shabbos elevators or escalators follow their Rov’s practice.
NevilleChaimberlin: your last words were certainly tongue in cheek but that is OK.
Daas Yochid: To frame the discussion properly- riding on a car or bus or subway is-min hadin- muttor if you don’t have to pay. The problems are “maris ayin” and hence, people do not use public transport nowadays. I don’t see how that translates in an issur for escalators or Shabbos elevators. If you can find it, look in Rabbi Goldschmidt from Moscow’s sefer where he addresses this with a verbal input by R’Moshe Feinstein zz.l
cherrybim: you are correct. As long as you don’t pay, it would be allowed to ride public transport, with the caveat that there could be “maris ayin”. For confirmation of this psak, check the sefer of the Rabbi of Moscow, R”Pinchas Goldschmidt, concerning subway rides in Moscow on Shabbos.
DaasYochid: I am not sure whether your comments answer any questions. I said that adding the need for more energy is done every time you open a door or open a space. In all instances, it is indirect(gromo) as stepping on an escalator does not immediately add anything and clearly nothing occurs now. As far as unintended, why would the door be different from n escalator? But anyway, as “cherrybim” mentions that Rav Neuwirth zz’k says escalators are ok.
NevilleChaimBerlin: As you see, there are other,more qualified Poskim who are dealing with the issues mentioned. However, the answer to your question is easy: Opening a refrigerator door will allow warm air to enter and make the motor to run longer. Opening your door to a house, will allow cold air to enter and the heating will have to work longer. Hence, the extra energy-especially when it is already working- is not an issue.
Daas Yochid: this is a useless discussion. It cannot be “midoiraisa” as we do not have an ohel by keilim. That said, I wrote that the world at large has accepted that we do not use an umbrella on shabbos-even an open one. Fine. Tis does not mean that all Poskim agreed to that or that there is no “tsad hetter”.
NevilleChaimBerlin: You remind me of the old joke ” whom do you believe, me or your own eyes?”. AviK brought down explicit sources for the hetter of an umbrella on Shabbos and you deny they exist. True, today, it has become acceptable not to use an umbrella or parasol but that is a chumro , accepted by the klal, not an halocho.
And you are totally wrong about ohel. We pasken there is NO din ohel by keilim, only mirabbonon in specific cases. Check it out.
Daas Yochid: Al I know is “puk mo amo diber”. There are numerous Shabbos elevators throughout the world, in hotels, in hospitals ,etc…- accepted and used by tens of thousands of jews.
So, whatever Possek you may quote , it is accepted that one can use it. You are welcome to any chumro you may wish but the klal does not have to accept it. And, you still have not given any logical reason why escalators, that run continually, should not be used. And, by the way, the fact that -maybe- more energy is used when there are more people does not make it ossur. Opening an closing your front door on Shabbos makes the heating work harder. Opening and closing the door of a refrigerator -even when the motor is running-will make the motor go longer. Just living in a house or apartment will make the boiler or the air conditioner work harder. Extra energy is not a measure of what is ossur or muttar.
Daas Yochid: The “Chelkas Yaakov” is not talking about automatic elevators.
I do take umbrage at your snide remark. I have always been respectful of your views. Give me the same courtesy.
Lastly, escalators do not consume more electricity with more people on it. It is static energy. Check it out.
blubluh: Escalators are very familiar in hotels where there are many open spaces and levels. And if you have to go through a train station or so, you will also encounter them.
Daas Yochid: Your statement defies logic. Elevators have to be operated and Shabbos elevators-allowed by most Poskim- operate automatically. Escalators are absolutely akin to automatic Shabbos elevators-as a matter of act better because-if you have followed the technical aspect of elevators- there was a question of increased electrical output- which is NOT the case with escalators.
Daas Yochid: the source to allow using an umbrella is from the “Tiferes Yisroel” In his perush “kilkeles hashaboos”. I found this written in “Otzar Dinim uminhagim” by Eisenstein. I will try to find the place in “kilkeles hashaboos” itself.
Daas Yochid: Again, you perplex me. An escalator ins on a continuous cycle and there is absolutely no “melocho” in sight. I don’t see why it can be ossur. As far as an elevator goes, there are numerous “Shabbos” elevators in the world, sanctioned to be muttar by the greatest poskim
Daas Yochid: Well, now you have perplexed me. What does “zilzul Shabbos” mean? I have never heard that this is the reason for not using an umbrella. Always because of “ohel” although it is at best miderabbonon, as we don’t say “ohel” by kelim.
Daas Yochid: I agree that-today- it is accepted that adults do not use bicycles, but it is much more akin to a “gezeira” like “klai zemer”, than an explicit issur.
As far as muktzah, I only commented about umbrellas-which I assume you maintain are muktzah, not about whether muktzah was a “melocho”.
I do realize that ,today, people do not use umbrellas ,or parasols for that matter, due to the question of “ohel. However, there were Poskim that allowed umbrellas in the nineteenth century and I heard-admittedly from hearsay-that in towns in Hungary, there were OPEN umbrellas in the shul, to use if it rained. As they were already open, there was no question of making an “ohel” I will find the sources for you tomorrow IYH.
Daas Yochid: I am sure you saw the “hagoho” where he writes that, min hadin, there would be no reason to prohibit riding a bicycle at all but because some people were “noheg” no to do it, we follow their example. This “hanhogo” obligates adults but I clearly know that children were allowed on small bicycles in their own yards.
Daas Yochid: I checked your source in Hebrew books and Rav Ben Shaul explicitly says that riding a tricycle for children is muttar. Same with roller skates. Muttar.
Daas Yochid: With respect to your broad knowledge but you are wrong about bicycles. It is certainly not d’oirasa, nor is it a ‘derabbonon”. At best, it may be a “cheshas’ that if the chain breaks, one would fix it-hence much more akin to a “klei zemer’ than anything else. Certainly in Europe, children did use bicycles in their own backyard. Even your comments about mukzha are incorrect. To hold an umbrella on Shabbos is not ossur.
Sam 2: I needed a laugher this morning and then I saw your comment-mentioning rob – and you got me my funny line! Thanks!
As for the actual subject- methinks that anyone who is learning should be drafted.